Special Needs Caretakers Are Losing Their Jobs

PasserBy12345 · 07-07-2012 09:18PM #1

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/parents-of-special-needs-children-in-dail-protest-557870.html

There was a protest a couple of days ago about the cuts in spending on education for special needs children. Some caretakers of the special needs children lost their jobs and there are others that might lose theirs. It's very unfortunate, because these care-takers are doing a nice thing and their wages are pretty low.

christmas2012 · 07-07-2012 09:20PM

Ya the healthcare jobs too are getting cut,i heard they were rehiring retired people for jobs in the HSE,the whole state is a mess,nothing gets sorted out and whats worse is we have jobbridge sucking what could have been paid jobs right out of the community..Dont get me started its a disgrace..

Godge · 08-07-2012 01:59AM

This is probably one of the best and most overpaid jobs in the Irish public service.

http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/job/4472328/special-needs-assistant/

Look at the job in East London, UK, salary ranges from £50 - £80 per day. Witth a primary school year of 183 days (in Ireland) this would give an annual salary of £9,150 to £14,640 equivalent to €11,534 to €18,706.

http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/job/4474922/learning-support-assistant-special-needs-school-south-west-london/

This job also pays within that pay range.

http://www.jobisjob.co.uk/s/london-london-united-kingdom/edustaff-london-ltd/special-needs-teaching-assistant-asd-pupils-/job-offer-6ttdltn7v5vz5sujpqh5rr3vz4

And this.

http://www.jobisjob.co.uk/london-greater-london/timeplan-education-london/special-needs-assistant-in-south-west-london/job-offer-o4fjgfbwzgaygzkq5a6murv4bq?pos=3

This one gives a maximum salary of £315 per week. Even if you assume a 52 week year, this only gives an annual rate of £16,380 which is €20,647.

So after a fairly extensive internet-based research the highest salary I can find is €20,647. What do Irish special needs assistants earn?

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/cl0005_2010.pdf?language=EN

Well, according to this, the scale runs from €23,188 to €37,339, nearly twice the UK rate.

So maybe we should look again at the salary we pay the special needs assistants so we can hire many more of them. The problem is, if we reduce the salary, many of them would be better off on the dole but that is for another thread.

femur61 · 08-07-2012 03:14PM

Applies to many jobs in the HSE as well, compared to the NHS we pay our consultants/doctors/ nurses far in excess what an population 14-15 times of ours pays their staff. The whole system needs a shake up, unfortunately people expect to get paid a certain wage and it is like banging your head against the wall to show them international figures. 80% of education funding goes on wages and as your post indicates it is not going to SNAs.

ardmacha · 08-07-2012 03:42PM

Applies to many jobs in the HSE as well, compared to the NHS we pay our consultants/doctors/ nurses far in excess what an population 14-15 times of ours pays their staff.

Yet again this nonsense about the UK having 15 times the population. This has no relevance whatsoever to what you pay staff. You may have a point about pay, but this continual pointless reference to the size of the state doesn't help your credibility.

femur61 · 08-07-2012 04:07PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Yet again this nonsense about the UK having 15 times the population. This has no relevance whatsoever to what you pay staff. You may have a point about pay, but this continual pointless reference to the size of the state doesn't help your credibility.

We have to get real though. The reference is our tax intake does not sufficently meet our expenditure that is why special needs teachers in the UK get so little.

sarumite · 08-07-2012 05:12PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Yet again this nonsense about the UK having 15 times the population. This has no relevance whatsoever to what you pay staff. You may have a point about pay, but this continual pointless reference to the size of the state doesn't help your credibility.

While it doesn't necessarily have a relevance, it does point a a glaring anomaly in how we pay for health care. The affect of economies of scale begin to kick in when you have a larger population which is more densely packed as in the UK. You could therefore expect them to be a bit less frugal if you assume (through the economies of scale) that they can do the same for less. What we find is the opposite. I think its serves as a poignant reminder of the excesses of the Irish boom that despite the fact that we don't have the benefits of a large more densely packed society like the UK, we can still pay above their rates.

n97 mini · 08-07-2012 07:42PM

We also have a population spread too thinly and too many small schools and small hospitals.

Icepick · 08-07-2012 10:30PM

Godge wrote: »

This is probably one of the best and most overpaid jobs in the Irish public service.

http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/job/4472328/special-needs-assistant/

Look at the job in East London, UK, salary ranges from £50 - £80 per day. Witth a primary school year of 183 days (in Ireland) this would give an annual salary of £9,150 to £14,640 equivalent to €11,534 to €18,706.

http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/job/4474922/learning-support-assistant-special-needs-school-south-west-london/

This job also pays within that pay range.

http://www.jobisjob.co.uk/s/london-london-united-kingdom/edustaff-london-ltd/special-needs-teaching-assistant-asd-pupils-/job-offer-6ttdltn7v5vz5sujpqh5rr3vz4

And this.

http://www.jobisjob.co.uk/london-greater-london/timeplan-education-london/special-needs-assistant-in-south-west-london/job-offer-o4fjgfbwzgaygzkq5a6murv4bq?pos=3

This one gives a maximum salary of £315 per week. Even if you assume a 52 week year, this only gives an annual rate of £16,380 which is €20,647.

So after a fairly extensive internet-based research the highest salary I can find is €20,647. What do Irish special needs assistants earn?

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/cl0005_2010.pdf?language=EN

Well, according to this, the scale runs from €23,188 to €37,339, nearly twice the UK rate.

So maybe we should look again at the salary we pay the special needs assistants so we can hire many more of them. The problem is, if we reduce the salary, many of them would be better off on the dole but that is for another thread.

The teacher supervisors, who are often less qualified to take care of kids with special needs, take twice that salary.

ardmacha · 09-07-2012 06:04AM

The reference is our tax intake does not sufficently meet our expenditure

Perhaps tax allowances should be reduced and property taxes increased to to the UK level to better balance taxation and expenditure?

While it doesn't necessarily have a relevance, it does point a a glaring anomaly in how we pay for health care. The affect of economies of scale begin to kick in when you have a larger population which is more densely packed as in the UK

You can make a case about the density of population, but its absolute size is not relevant in this case. You cannot day that Danish special needs assistants should be paid less than Polish special needs assistants because their country has a smaller population.

femur61 · 09-07-2012 07:15AM

ardmacha wrote: »

Perhaps tax allowances should be reduced and property taxes increased to to the UK level to better balance taxation and expenditure?

I agree but I do think all wages need to be reviewed. I paid poll tax in the UK so agree with property tax, if it is given to the approiate services not tied up wages for countless county council managers to take 6 weeks holidays.

Our young not only need decent healthcare but a decent education. I have a dyslexic child so I can appreciate that people want their children to stay in main stream school and to be given the best education but with reduction and elimination of SNAs, that is not possible.

Our taxes are being mispent, too many chiefs not enough indians.

ardmacha · 09-07-2012 07:26AM

Our taxes are being mispent, too many chiefs not enough indians.

No problem agreeing with that sentiment.

Atilathehun · 09-07-2012 09:57AM

femur61 wrote: »

I agree but I do think all wages need to be reviewed. I paid poll tax in the UK so agree with property tax, if it is given to the approiate services not tied up wages for countless county council managers to take 6 weeks holidays.

Our young not only need decent healthcare but a decent education. I have a dyslexic child so I can appreciate that people want their children to stay in main stream school and to be given the best education but with reduction and elimination of SNAs, that is not possible.

Our taxes are being mispent, too many chiefs not enough indians.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/council-officials-sent-on-10000-harvard-course-3160448.html

Sponge Bob · 09-07-2012 07:48PM

Special needs carers go with a child and school, once the child leaves school ...no more job. Many of those whose special child is finished 6th class in 2012 are unqualified and there is no way to get a new job...eg when 'their' child goes to second level.

Godge · 03-08-2012 10:20PM

Icepick wrote: »

The teacher supervisors, who are often less qualified to take care of kids with special needs, take twice that salary.

The Special Needs Assistant qualifications are junior cert level so I don't understand how teachers are less qualified.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Special needs carers go with a child and school, once the child leaves school ...no more job. Many of those whose special child is finished 6th class in 2012 are unqualified and there is no way to get a new job...eg when 'their' child goes to second level.

And if a new special needs pupil comes into the school, a new qualified SNA is hired. Do you have a problem with this? Replacing under-qualified people with fully-qualfied people with out having to spend a penny extra is surely a good thins?

Sponge Bob · 03-08-2012 11:17PM

Godge wrote: »

And if a new special needs pupil comes into the school, a new qualified SNA is hired. Do you have a problem with this? Replacing under-qualified people with fully-qualfied people with out having to spend a penny extra is surely a good thins?

Where did you get the idea that I had a problem with replacing an unqualified person with a qualified person. ????

byhookorbycrook · 03-08-2012 11:20PM

SNAs allow children to attend mainstream rather than the much more expensive (due to smaller PTR etc) to run special schools.They have usually done some kind of course/training in how to manage say how to lift "their "child, insert a catheter and so on

A new child entering primary is unlikely to get an SNA to themselves anymore or even for full hours shared.Comparing salaries to other countries is often done by people who fail to see that their own salary/social welfare etc is higher than those other countries too.

04-08-2012 12:01AM

Job bridge is advertising and has been advertising various special needs work for your dole type "jobs"

http://intern.jobbridge.ie/Default.aspx?q=sgTp2imsSJLN8bwg795BBA3xup3SVslZq3KY/6gUf3OcMG7soiAXx21P1mkLGNxAt/jjmSQHyvX7Sj/rgfMLJ5IbSq0p0KISrEcbUr4dyEYChJ/CKSJQf6Im0xosKm5RTSJAWiq571dN4VVJ7d9Rp2wvM3T/LwGhvxNpEx4kmhRQ4P1rN2YtAfC3vGfJeA/4KONXjj5dwAfCwtDLEcej9h+dlfkd8zEq05oANAKIUGP4Tt4KN0WIoO6xNA+MfSvPM3ktjMS+YtcOlWnT9GMPNSMatqM/tudSsQpIEA4NEar85b38qebNwnNswco3YAj8Pku42U5DEN9szMEoTj0FfxwbYFFd4Uiyb9cWy+pq5uZdm76RZMQ/jeQYYpB3YldLNiRgQakwYV7XU7Oa+zQ6FWKLee3B9JS3ebI66vpU2wS0cwSoSd4T01AITquKeKRaWx4s38QKHb+X100LTAPeap3oBq1Iv/l1dVunDjCJKEs=

Special Needs Assistant

Description

The intern will gain practical experience in how to interact and communicate with children with special needs.They will learn different teaching methods and ways of helping these children reach their full potential. The intern will receive formal/informal training in the following areas: classroom management, computer software, how to follow programs written by speech therapists, occupational therapists etc. On completion the intern will have attained skills in communication, classroom management, computers, teamwork.

Skills Requirements

A basic knowledge of Irish is required as the school is a Gaelscoil. Garda vetting is essential.

Please Note:

This is an Internship. An allowance of €50 per week will be paid in addition to your current Social Welfare payment.See eligibility criteria above.

Number of Positions

2

Godge wrote: »

Well, according to this, the scale runs from €23,188 to €37,339, nearly twice the UK rate.

So maybe we should look again at the salary we pay the special needs assistants so we can hire many more of them. The problem is, if we reduce the salary, many of them would be better off on the dole but that is for another thread.

Your examples are excellent and highlight the root problem. Unfortunately nobody in power or in opposition is interested in tackling the root problems. Instead of reducing wages for all they will bring in hew hires for the dole. Croke Park style cutbacks.

SerialComplaint · 04-08-2012 08:39AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Job bridge is advertising and has been advertising various special needs work for your dole type "jobs"

http://intern.jobbridge.ie/Default.aspx?q=sgTp2imsSJLN8bwg795BBA3xup3SVslZq3KY/6gUf3OcMG7soiAXx21P1mkLGNxAt/jjmSQHyvX7Sj/rgfMLJ5IbSq0p0KISrEcbUr4dyEYChJ/CKSJQf6Im0xosKm5RTSJAWiq571dN4VVJ7d9Rp2wvM3T/LwGhvxNpEx4kmhRQ4P1rN2YtAfC3vGfJeA/4KONXjj5dwAfCwtDLEcej9h+dlfkd8zEq05oANAKIUGP4Tt4KN0WIoO6xNA+MfSvPM3ktjMS+YtcOlWnT9GMPNSMatqM/tudSsQpIEA4NEar85b38qebNwnNswco3YAj8Pku42U5DEN9szMEoTj0FfxwbYFFd4Uiyb9cWy+pq5uZdm76RZMQ/jeQYYpB3YldLNiRgQakwYV7XU7Oa+zQ6FWKLee3B9JS3ebI66vpU2wS0cwSoSd4T01AITquKeKRaWx4s38QKHb+X100LTAPeap3oBq1Iv/l1dVunDjCJKEs=

Your examples are excellent and highlight the root problem. Unfortunately nobody in power or in opposition is interested in tackling the root problems. Instead of reducing wages for all they will bring in hew hires for the dole. Croke Park style cutbacks.

There is something funny going here, not just the Jobbridge thing. The job spec for the SNA includes "They will learn different teaching methods and ways of helping these children reach their full potential". SNAs are not there to teach. Their role is to provide personal care. Children with disabilities should be taught by qualified teachers, the ones that have done a four year degree course, not by SNAs with Junior Cert qualifications.

lmimmfn · 06-08-2012 09:10PM

Godge wrote: »

Well, according to this, the scale runs from €23,188 to €37,339, nearly twice the UK rate.

So maybe we should look again at the salary we pay the special needs assistants so we can hire many more of them. The problem is, if we reduce the salary, many of them would be better off on the dole but that is for another thread.

Youre not comparing like for like, its too important to leave out that on the dole you get ~9620euro per year + free medical card + generally close to free accomodation( especially if you have a family ) + anoter few 100euro allowances for books/school uniforms and up until recently first hold communion.
For 1 person that would be 9620 + 6000 + maybe 500euro GP/prescription costs( with kids a lot more from medical expenses ). so if a special needs care assistent is hired at €23,188 they get just over 7 grand more than being on the dole are taxed on that so prob get 4 grand more than being on the dole but have to pay for their own accomodation and pay all their GP visits/medication costs, travel costs to/from work, creche for kids.

Godge · 08-08-2012 09:56PM

lmimmfn wrote: »

Youre not comparing like for like, its too important to leave out that on the dole you get ~9620euro per year + free medical card + generally close to free accomodation( especially if you have a family ) + anoter few 100euro allowances for books/school uniforms and up until recently first hold communion.
For 1 person that would be 9620 + 6000 + maybe 500euro GP/prescription costs( with kids a lot more from medical expenses ). so if a special needs care assistent is hired at €23,188 they get just over 7 grand more than being on the dole are taxed on that so prob get 4 grand more than being on the dole but have to pay for their own accomodation and pay all their GP visits/medication costs, travel costs to/from work, creche for kids.

No, I am comparing like with like. I compared two similar jobs, one in Ireland, one in the UK. The job in Ireland is paid twice the amount the job in the UK. I said this was wrong.

What I did not do was look and investigate into the reasons why we pay too much. You have advanced one reason for the difference - much higher social welfare rates in Ireland requiring higher salaries for SNAs so they will take the job. You may be right. That is another debate.

There are other possible reasons. They include different taxation situations, different qualifications etc. I haven't researched them but they would only explain the difference. The point remains that for whatever reason the job in the UK is paid half the job in Ireland when I compare like job with like job.

SerialComplaint · 08-08-2012 11:01PM

Godge wrote: »

No, I am comparing like with like. I compared two similar jobs, one in Ireland, one in the UK. The job in Ireland is paid twice the amount the job in the UK. I said this was wrong.

No - you're still not comparing like with like. There is no point in comparing salaries without comparing cost of living. If you live in the UK, you have the generally excellent NHS service. Only 10% of people in the UK take out private insurance, because they know the NHS will look after them well. That's not how it works here. Kids in the UK get school books provided as a matter of course. Some areas will still provide school meals.

And that's before you even think about looking at cost of property, cars and other basic services.

ChRoMe · 09-08-2012 09:48AM

SerialComplaint wrote: »

No - you're still not comparing like with like. There is no point in comparing salaries without comparing cost of living. If you live in the UK, you have the generally excellent NHS service. Only 10% of people in the UK take out private insurance, because they know the NHS will look after them well. That's not how it works here. Kids in the UK get school books provided as a matter of course. Some areas will still provide school meals.

And that's before you even think about looking at cost of property, cars and other basic services.

Just wanted to chip in as someone living in the UK, you are completely correct. Doing such crass comparisons between the position and salary is nonsense.

Head The Wall · 09-08-2012 02:21PM

SerialComplaint wrote: »

No - you're still not comparing like with like. There is no point in comparing salaries without comparing cost of living. If you live in the UK, you have the generally excellent NHS service. Only 10% of people in the UK take out private insurance, because they know the NHS will look after them well. That's not how it works here. Kids in the UK get school books provided as a matter of course. Some areas will still provide school meals.

And that's before you even think about looking at cost of property, cars and other basic services.

Thats all well and good if you are going to the doctor every week and have a few kids but that is not the case with everyone so it's not a great way to compare either. People also pay more tax in the UK than Ireland as well as council tax, water etc.

Going on Godges figures I don't see how the cost of living can be used to explain the difference in salary of £16,380 in the UK (the max found) and Irelands need to pay 23k to 37k for the same position.

Even bearing in mind the higher cost of rent, taxes etc I still have a better quality of life in London than I did in Ireland and it doesn't cost me any more to live here.

Degsy · 09-08-2012 04:37PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Job bridge is advertising and has been advertising various special needs work for your dole type "jobs"
.

As oppsed to "get it for nothing because we can afford to pay you and anyway you deserve it"?

.

Deleted User wrote: »

Instead of reducing wages for all they will bring in hew hires for the dole. Croke Park style cutbacks.

Why not just increase taxes for everybody who is lucky enough to have a job instead of cut the wages of the people making 30k per year?

Why shouldnt everybody shoulder the burden of private sector greed?

SerialComplaint · 09-08-2012 10:42PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

People also pay more tax in the UK than Ireland as well as council tax, water etc.

Not true - UK appears in the list of the top 6 lowest tax countries;

http://www.businesspundit.com/12-countries-with-the-highest-lowest-tax-rates/

Head The Wall · 10-08-2012 01:33PM

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Not true - UK appears in the list of the top 6 lowest tax countries;

http://www.businesspundit.com/12-countries-with-the-highest-lowest-tax-rates/

Well you can trust that report or you can actually use the relevant tax calculators from the UK and Ireland

Ireland - E20,000 pays E1954
UK - £15,732 pays £2913 which is E3703

This is based on a single person for comparison purposes. That's a big difference which ever way you try and paint it and there's also council tax, water etc on top of that

ardmacha · 10-08-2012 01:40PM

Ireland - E20,000 pays E1954
UK - £15,732 pays £2913 which is E3703

It is sometimes contended here that people are overtaxed, or that better paid people do not pay enough. But of course compared to other places people in with lower incomes in Ireland pay little tax and better off people are closer to the norm. If we had a similar tax structure to the UK, including the local taxes, the deficit would be much reduced. Of course the UK has almost as big a deficit despite these taxes and lower benefit payments.

Head The Wall · 10-08-2012 02:38PM

We are not talking about deficits here but why they get paid so much more in Ireland than in the UK even though my figures prove they pay more tax in the UK

Special Needs Caretakers Are Losing Their Jobs

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