Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Was Michelle de Bruin our greatest Olympian? Eamonn Coughlan says yes

1…1819212324…27

Comments

  • #602
    Higher
    Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    Lord of the Bongs wrote: »
    All this and you cannot categorically PROVE she took drugs to help win them medals, fact.

    .

    I can't categorically prove that a flying elephant doesn't exist but I can be pretty damn sure. No one was out to get her, FINA are an independent body ffs.


  • #603
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Higher wrote: »
    The three failed drug tests?
    The fact that she attempted to tamper with a drug test?
    The fact that she avoided all out of competition tests since 1995
    The fact that from 1995 onwards coincidentally when she started avoiding tests,she went from 90th in world to number
    The fact that her new coach was himself suspended for doping
    The fact that she cut 17 seconds off her personal best in 18 months, unprecedented and again coincided with when she was avoiding tests

    How much proof do you need?
    Must try much harder.

    Sorry bud, some of that is purely circumstantial and is proof on absolutely nothing and none of it relates to her performance at the 96 olympics, which is still the topic of the thread.


  • #604
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Higher wrote: »
    Does it matter? Andro was a new steroid, the only reason it wasn't banned was because it hadn't been added to the list yet.
    Sorry, where did you read that?

    This link from Rice said it was used in the Olympics as far back as the 1970s, and is still permissible in baseball, hockey and the NBA. And neither was it banned in 1996 when Smith won her medal.
    http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/andro.html

    Can you provide a link to back up what you are saying?


  • #605
    Lord of the Bongs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 121 ✭✭Lord of the Bongs


    Higher wrote: »
    I can't categorically prove that a flying elephant doesn't exist but I can be pretty damn sure. No one was out to get her, FINA are an independent body ffs.

    Independent, is that like untouchable and none biased? lol. Seems they were out to get her they even flew to her home and made her take a piss on virtually her own doorstep.


  • #606
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,251 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Sea Filly wrote: »
    And women?

    Well, last time I checked, teenagers generally aren't able to match mature women in in sports requiring strength, stamina or speed. Why would swimming be any different?

    Before anyone mentions body fat, women runners continue to improve into their late 20s, and of course body fat carries a much bigger penalty in running.


  • Advertisement
  • #607
    omega666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭omega666


    This is all complete horse poo. All speculation and theories and not a single person has a single shred of proof that she cheated in the olympics.
    There is only one fact in all this and that is she passed every test at the games and she still holds all her medals.

    Until it was proven she cheated and her medals taken away then of course she is our greatest olympian.


  • #608
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Higher wrote: »
    I can't categorically prove that a flying elephant doesn't exist but I can be pretty damn sure. ...
    But we're not discussing elephants of any kind, and "pretty damn sure" probably doesn't make it into the list of measure of evidential certainty.
    Higher wrote: »
    ... No one was out to get her, FINA are an independent body ffs.
    There's a statement made earlier that Mrs. Guy said she was out to "get" Michelle.

    When you say "FINA are an independent body" what exactly do you mean? Who and what are they independent of?


  • #609
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Higher wrote: »
    ...
    You can argue all you want but the fact is that she is known around the world as a cheat and that's because she did cheat. You can argue technicalities all you want but anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see that she doped.

    Prove it.


  • #610
    StephenHendry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭StephenHendry


    omega666 wrote: »
    This is all complete horse poo. All speculation and theories and not a single person has a single shred of proof that she cheated in the olympics.
    There is only one fact in all this and that is she passed every test at the games and she still holds all her medals.

    Until it was proven she cheated and her medals taken away then of course she is our greatest olympian.


    exactly michelle was tested throughout the atlanta games in 96 and passed every one of them


  • #611
    Sea Filly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭Sea Filly


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Well, last time I checked, teenagers generally aren't able to match mature women in in sports requiring strength, stamina or speed. Why would swimming be any different?

    Actually, it's recognised that female swimmers lose their edge once they get past the teen years, for whatever reason. It seems it's not all to do with strength. Flexibility probably figures too, and there may be common reasons why female swimmers and gymnasts are at their best generally in their teens. There's always going to be outliers like Dara Torres.


  • Advertisement
  • #612
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭mathepac


    omega666 wrote: »
    This is all complete horse poo. ... Until it was proven she cheated and her medals taken away then of course she is our greatest olympian.
    Horse poo is right. Until she plumbs the depths of doping and cheating Cian O'Connor sank to she won't get an invitation back.


  • #613
    lugha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    StephenHendry wrote: »
    exactly michelle was tested throughout the atlanta games in 96 and passed every one of them
    As a rule would you accept the performances of an athlete as bona fide provided they were not caught at the time? Would you for example argue that Ben Johnson deserves still to be regarded as one of the great sprinters in the world prior to '88? Or does his subsequent mishaps taint his earlier achievements?


  • #614
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,251 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Sea Filly wrote: »
    Actually, it's recognised that female swimmers lose their edge once they get past the teen years, for whatever reason. It seems it's not all to do with strength. Flexibility probably figures too, and there may be common reasons why female swimmers and gymnasts are at their best generally in their teens. There's always going to be outliers like Dara Torres.

    As I said, don't mention that to Therese Alshammar, or any of the others currently in their 20s.

    Truth is, there is no reason why swimmers should peak in their teens, bar the long hours in the pool at stupid o'clock in the morning. It's all a matter of motivation, and many swimmers lose it when they graduate HS or its equivalent.

    The monastic lifestyle can fit in ok with high school, but not with university. But now, there's more money in swimming, so swimmers have the motivation to stay in the sport.

    Sure look at our own Gráinne Murphy: she's 19, but regarded as a future prospect. Why isn't she washed up at 19?


  • #615
    Higher
    Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    You're right it will never be proven hence why she still has her gold medals. But I think most people have enough intelligence to conclude that she did considering all the circumstantial evidence. Theres a reason why she has been airbrushed out of history and has been ranked in the top 10 of all-time Olympian cheats. Like I said, if she wasn't Irish you wouldn't even argue.


  • #616
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Sea Filly wrote: »
    Actually, it's recognised that female swimmers lose their edge once they get past the teen years, for whatever reason.
    Link?

    Strangely enough, I was talking to a former swimmer about the Chinese girl and Michell Smith came up; he said something that I would interpret to jar with what you have just said in terms of predicting female performances.

    So since so far all we've had are hearsay and anecdotes on that point in particular, do you actually have evidence for what you are saying?


  • #617
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭mathepac


    lugha wrote: »
    As a rule would you accept the performances of an athlete as bona fide provided they were not caught at the time? Would you for example argue that Ben Johnson deserves still to be regarded as one of the great sprinters in the world prior to '88? Or does his subsequent mishaps taint his earlier achievements?

    More off topic stuff.


  • #618
    Higher
    Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    StephenHendry wrote: »
    exactly michelle was tested throughout the atlanta games in 96 and passed every one of them

    You'll be hard pressed to find many Olympic athletes who are dumb enough to be juicing during the games. It usually happens in the months preceding...which begs the question why did Smith avoid all out of competition tests since 1995 and why did that period result in her going from 90th in the world to number 1?


  • #619
    Higher
    Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    mathepac wrote: »
    More off topic stuff.

    Very similar situation. Do you think Ben Johnson deserves his gold? If not then why does Michelle Smith?


  • #620
    omega666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭omega666


    Higher wrote: »
    Very similar situation. Do you think Ben Johnson deserves his gold? If not then why does Michelle Smith?

    Johnson was caught cheating and his gold medal taken off him.
    Michelle was not caught for cheating and still has her medals.
    How are these similar?


  • #621
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Higher wrote: »
    Very similar situation. Do you think Ben Johnson deserves his gold? If not then why does Michelle Smith?
    Here's our topic as set by OP "Was Michelle de Bruin our greatest Olympian? Eamonn Coughlan says yes" I'm happy to try and keep up with the flow around that topic. I'm not happy to try and keep track of all the OT stuff because I can't; I'm snowed as it is. I'm not trying to mod the thread, just trying to keep up with it; sorry if I didn't make that clear before.


  • Advertisement
  • #622
    Sea Filly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭Sea Filly


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    As I said, don't mention that to Therese Alshammar, or any of the others currently in their 20s.

    Truth is, there is no reason why swimmers should peak in their teens, bar the long hours in the pool at stupid o'clock in the morning. It's all a matter of motivation, and many swimmers lose it when they graduate HS or its equivalent.

    Gymnasts require great strength, right? Yet, most top-flight female gymnasts are teenage. Maybe something to do with smaller stature, I don't know, but strength must not be the only thing that is required to have the edge. Could be the same for female swimmers.


  • #623
    Lord of the Bongs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 121 ✭✭Lord of the Bongs


    Higher wrote: »
    Very similar situation. Do you think Ben Johnson deserves his gold? If not then why does Michelle Smith?

    Jonson had drugs inside him and was positively tested for having drugs in his system. In the exact same way Michelle was tested and her results proved to be negative.


  • #624
    Local_Chap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 575 ✭✭✭Local_Chap


    Local_Chap wrote: »
    Sorry if this has been asked already but is there anywhere that you can read a full unbiased story of what happened with Michelle and Atlanta? It would make for an interesting read

    Don't think this has been answered yet so if anyone could let me know it would be much appreciated!


  • #625
    Sea Filly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭Sea Filly


    later12 wrote: »
    Link?Strangely enough, I was talking to a former swimmer about the Chinese girl and Michell Smith came up; he said something that I would interpret to jar with what you have just said in terms of predicting female performances.

    I read it on either ESPN or BBC yesterday (can't remember which). Question the credibility of that if you will. But in the same vein, I'd be as entitled the credibility of your statement, unless you can prove this former swimmer exists, and can enlighten us about what he/she said. ;)


  • #626
    lugha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    mathepac wrote: »
    More off topic stuff.
    More evasion on your part more like. I suspect you don't really rate Mr. Johnson as one of the greats.

    If an athlete is found to have cheated then any reasonable person would feel that there is a cloud of suspicion over their entire career and not just the particular events in which they were found to have cheated. It is plainly daft to argue otherwise.

    But if it amuses you ... :pac:
    omega666 wrote: »
    Johnson was caught cheating and his gold medal taken off him.
    Michelle was not caught for cheating and still has her medals.
    How are these similar?
    My point related to how Johnson's achievements prior to 88 should be regarded now. Surely you must say that he was at that time one of the heroes of world athletics, and should be regarded as such even now?


  • #627
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Higher wrote: »
    You'll be hard pressed to find many Olympic athletes who are dumb enough to be juicing during the games. It usually happens in the months preceding...which begs the question why did Smith avoid all out of competition tests since 1995 and why did that period result in her going from 90th in the world to number 1?

    Do you really expect anyone to take seriously the sort of misleading mantra you're putting forward here?

    Smith's improvements from around 1991 onwards in terms of world championships and European medals are well documented... you're being totally misleading in terms of her improvements, as though she had never won a major championship or ranked highly in world championships before Atlanta.

    Like many other people, I have always been suspicious about Smith's victories in 1996, and I still retain a good deal of that suspicion.

    However, it's arguments like the above that are steadily disintegrating the case against Smith because we start to think "if they have to misrepresent the case so vehemently, what are they afraid of admitting?"

    Look at Smith's records. Before Atlanta, and particularly since the 1991 world championships, she had a string of achievements that no other Irish swimmer had previously enjoyed, she was an athlete of international repute and an international gold medalist.

    Rule 1 of making a convincing case: Be a little bit more realistic; start out by admitting the cold facts, even the ones that don't suit your opinion, and people might actually take you seriously.


  • #628
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Sea Filly wrote: »
    I read it on either ESPN or BBC yesterday (can't remember which). Question the credibility of that if you will. But in the same vein, I'd be as entitled the credibility of your statement, unless you can prove this former swimmer exists, and can enlighten us about what he/she said. ;)
    No that's not good enough. You're saying you have no evidence? I've just been searching BBC and ESPN on google and I cannot find reference to this.

    I'm not saying that what I was told is correct: I called it hearsay. In mentioning it, I am only explaining why I am questioning you on this topic. I've heard something that would seem to disagree with your argument, so I'm asking you for evidence either way.


  • #629
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    mathepac wrote: »
    Off-topic again; why not start your own thread if joining in the topic under discussion doesn't suit you?


    Why not let the mods moderate on what is or is'nt on topic and answer the question. You are claiming she is our greatest olympian so it is reason able to ask what criteria you are using and that is best illustrated by giving more that one athlete and why .


  • #630
    Sea Filly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭Sea Filly


    later12 wrote: »
    No that's not good enough. You're saying you have no evidence? I've just been searching BBC and ESPN on google and I cannot find reference to this.


    I honestly don't give a crap if you don't think it's good enough. Believe me, don't believe me, whatever.


  • Advertisement
  • #631
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭mathepac


    lugha wrote: »
    More evasion on your part more like. I suspect you don't really rate Mr. Johnson as one of the greats....
    Roll back a few posts and you'll see my explanation for my "off topic" comments. After you've read that, think what you like and waffle away off topic if you wish.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement