Education and Skills shortfall – where do we go from here?

golfwallah · 27-07-2012 09:22AM #1

For a country with a proud record of economic improvement through constantly growing education spending, why are we witnessing such poor performance in keeping up with changes in the skills and competencies demanded by the market as much as slippage in standards?

For some time now we have been hearing about difficulties in attracting foreign direct investment and employment of Irish people because of:
• Lack of language skills
• Lack of IT skills
• Shortage of engineers and accountants
• Too many people with construction industry skills for which demand has considerably reduced
• Too much of the education budget going on teacher pay and conditions

There is a lot right with our education and skills training system. It has enabled us to be relatively successful in attracting foreign direct investment and enabling new business start-ups up to recently. And even though the system has lost some sense of direction, it still provides a good starting point for the newer skills and competencies required to bring about economic recovery.

We also have a lot of well educated people. However, many with construction industry skills are now unemployed and faced with the choices of staying on the dole, emigration or re-training.

So, is it sufficient to wallow in complaints about inadequacies in the system or can we do something positive about it? And if we can identify the shortfall between where we are and where we should be, why isn’t more happening to resolve the problem? For example, this Irish Times article from last year puts it down to poor marketing to attract students into higher level maths, etc.

After all, the DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS STATEMENT OF STRATEGY 2011 – 2014 opens with the following mission statement (click link for full report): “To enable learners to achieve their full potential and contribute to Ireland’s economic, social and cultural development”.

It goes on to say (paragraph 2.2): “A key element of the Government’s growth and employment strategy is ensuring that we have the right skills to attract, retain and grow job opportunities, investment and growth. In addition to improving education outcomes generally we need to ensure our learners and graduates have the right skills for employment and provide reskilling and upskilling opportunities for the unemployed - particularly those at risk of long-term unemployment.”

Manach · 27-07-2012 09:37AM

Offhand,
- for IT what the companies want is to have is to have a candidates skilled on most of the latest technologies but willing to work at comparative low pay rates. As well, training from IT companies is minimum at best and usually up to ones self to enroll in courses.
- for languages, that is a matter of geography. Our nearest neighbour shares the language and there is no constant exposure to other tongues which would act a stimulus to gain experience.
- This Government (AFAIK) have reduced the tax relief allowed on adult education. This, along with the increased tax burden, disincentives the acquisition of the extra education and skills that are needed.

27-07-2012 10:25AM

golfwallah wrote: »

So, is it sufficient to wallow in complaints about inadequacies in the system or can we do something positive about it? And if we can identify the shortfall between where we are and where we should be, why isn’t more happening to resolve the problem? For example, this Irish Times article from last year puts it down to poor marketing to attract students into higher level maths, etc.

Specifically related to languages - the rewards aren't particularly there for students to go out and learn these over something else.

I studied a business with language degree and encountered an employers representative while in college who was bemoaning the numbers studying languages saying employers couldn't get enough skilled employees.

When pressed on what jobs were available and what career progression there was he essentially admitted that the jobs were call centre jobs and there was limited progression.

Ten years later I think only one of the 15 from my class uses their language professionally, most of us went into accounting or finance.

To address the language imbalance we should stop wasting time on religion in primary school and introduce foreign languages.

n900guy · 27-07-2012 10:32AM

golfwallah wrote: »

For a country with a proud record of economic improvement through constantly growing education spending, why are we witnessing such poor performance in keeping up with changes in the skills and competencies demanded by the market as much as slippage in standards?

Because economic improvement was primarily based on credit and not the result of supposed educational investment.

If it was educational investment, we wouldn't have the poor performance and so much unemployment, would we.

RichardAnd · 27-07-2012 11:34AM

The problem seems to me to be an education that whilst not terrible, is in need of modernisation. One massive issue with education here (and elsewhere, I'm sure) is that students are told to learn material that is given to them and write it down in an exam without ever fully understanding it or even questioning it. This is unhealthy as consistent exposure to learning by rote without personal investigation and study will leave an individual poorly prepared for the considerable self-tuition that is often required in "skilled jobs" and many others besides.

Degsy · 27-07-2012 12:16PM

golfwallah wrote: »

For a country with a proud record of economic improvement through constantly growing education spending, why are we witnessing such poor performance in keeping up with changes in the skills and competencies demanded by the market as much as slippage in standards?

For some time now we have been hearing about difficulties in attracting foreign direct investment and employment of Irish people because of:
• Lack of language skills
• Lack of IT skills
• Shortage of engineers and accountants
• Too many people with construction industry skills for which demand has considerably reduced
• Too much of the education budget going on teacher pay and conditions

There is a lot right with our education and skills training system. It has enabled us to be relatively successful in attracting foreign direct investment and enabling new business start-ups up to recently. And even though the system has lost some sense of direction, it still provides a good starting point for the newer skills and competencies required to bring about economic recovery.

We also have a lot of well educated people. However, many with construction industry skills are now unemployed and faced with the choices of staying on the dole, emigration or re-training.

So, is it sufficient to wallow in complaints about inadequacies in the system or can we do something positive about it? And if we can identify the shortfall between where we are and where we should be, why isn’t more happening to resolve the problem? For example, this Irish Times article from last year puts it down to poor marketing to attract students into higher level maths, etc.

After all, the DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS STATEMENT OF STRATEGY 2011 – 2014 opens with the following mission statement (click link for full report): “To enable learners to achieve their full potential and contribute to Ireland’s economic, social and cultural development”.

It goes on to say (paragraph 2.2): “A key element of the Government’s growth and employment strategy is ensuring that we have the right skills to attract, retain and grow job opportunities, investment and growth. In addition to improving education outcomes generally we need to ensure our learners and graduates have the right skills for employment and provide reskilling and upskilling opportunities for the unemployed - particularly those at risk of long-term unemployment.”

Lovely..they want an increase in education(presumably free :rolleyes:) but want to cut the teachers' pay.

Brussels Sprout · 27-07-2012 12:21PM

Degsy wrote: »

Lovely..they want an increase in education(presumably free :rolleyes:) but want to cut the teachers' pay.

Don't worry, the Labour party will protect all of their teacher buddies at the expense of the rest of society.

antoobrien · 27-07-2012 12:53PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Specifically related to languages - the rewards aren't particularly there for students to go out and learn these over something else.

.
.

To address the language imbalance we should stop wasting time on religion in primary school and introduce foreign languages.

The languages thing is a red herring - paypal more or less proved that a couple of weeks ago by admitting that the majority of the 1,000 or so jobs in Dundalk are going to go to native speakers.

Degsy · 27-07-2012 01:09PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Don't worry, the Labour party will protect all of their teacher buddies at the expense of the rest of society.

"the rest of society" being the ones who benefit from the free education the teachers are providing?

Welease · 27-07-2012 01:56PM

Degsy wrote: »

"the rest of society" being the ones who benefit from the free education the teachers are providing?

Where is this "free" education? We pay taxes, teachers get paid, plus there is the cost for buildings, books etc.. I believe we spent over €8.5 Billion last year on education...

By the same logic all health services are free.. as are county council services :rolleyes:

spurious · 27-07-2012 02:02PM

The languages in primary schools initiative, which was very successful and popular, was done away with in the last round of education cuts.

antoobrien · 27-07-2012 02:03PM

Welease wrote: »

Where is this "free" education? We pay taxes, teachers get paid, plus there is the cost for buildings, books etc.. I believe we spent over €8.5 Billion last year on education...

By the same logic all health services are free.. as are county council services :rolleyes:

Well yes, in that you don't have to contribute to tuition, light & heat, teachers supplies etc, then education is free.

Regarding health, one of my neighbours recently hurt himself during a match and went to the local private clinic. The costs were:
Concultacny fee €110
Additional X-ray fee €150
Additional Cast/Walking boot fee €300
The hospital claim they have a €495 maximum fee.

He went to the A&E instead where he was charged €100 and all work was done (I might go over to him and "ask" for my tax back).

We get a lot more for free than we think.

Degsy · 27-07-2012 02:20PM

Welease wrote: »

Where is this "free" education? We pay taxes, teachers get paid, plus there is the cost for buildings, books etc.. I believe we spent over €8.5 Billion last year on education...

By the same logic all health services are free.. as are county council services :rolleyes:

You dont have to pay fees for kids to go to school and you dont have to pay fees to go to college.

This is paid for by the state and as such is free education.

Unfortunatley the people who do the teaching need to be paid for thier time and effort as children cant educate themselves.:rolleyes:

Welease · 27-07-2012 02:25PM

antoobrien wrote: »

Well yes, in that you don't have to contribute to tuition, light & heat, teachers supplies etc, then education is free.

We get a lot more for free than we think.

I paid a lot of tax last year.. The €8.5B required came from that. Education is not free.. You may not be charged directly for consuming the service (although for higher education we have "admin charges" etc.), but it is anything but free..

antoobrien · 27-07-2012 02:33PM

Welease wrote: »

I paid a lot of tax last year.. The €8.5B required came from that. Education is not free.. You may not be charged directly for consuming the service (although for higher education we have "admin charges" etc.), but it is anything but free..

No it's free to the consumer, which is not the same as saying that it costs nothing to provide.

E.g. if a petrol station was to give away petrol, it's still be charged the excise duty. Free petrol but doesn't cost nothing.

Besides, you can't claim that "my taxes made part of the education budget" because you didn't give your taxes to the Department of Education, you gave it to Revenue Commissioners.

Welease · 27-07-2012 02:40PM

antoobrien wrote: »

No it's free to the consumer, which is not the same as saying that it costs nothing to provide.

E.g. if a petrol station was to give away petrol, it's still be charged the excise duty. Free petrol but doesn't cost anything.

Besides, you can't claim that "my taxes made part of the education budget" because you didn't give your taxes to the Department of Education, you gave it to Revenue Commissioners.

So if I paid "administration" charges for 3rd level education do you also claim it didnt cost anything?

antoobrien · 27-07-2012 02:42PM

Welease wrote: »

So if I paid "administration" charges for 3rd level education do you also claim it didnt cost anything?

You also wouldn't have had to buy stationary, various books, etc

NUI Galway charge international students about €13k. A small "admin" (I'll note that it's not tuition - which is the education bit) charge is free in comparison.

RichardAnd · 27-07-2012 02:43PM

I really wish that :rolleyes: smiley would be removed from this site . . .

Welease · 27-07-2012 02:43PM

antoobrien wrote: »

You also wouldn't have had to buy stationary, various books, etc

Thats not the question.. Does being charged a fee to go to third level education in this country constitute being "free" in your mind?

antoobrien · 27-07-2012 02:48PM

Welease wrote: »

Thats not the question.. Does being charged a fee to go to third level education in this country constitute being "free" in your mind?

Since I didn't pay for my tuition (the fees came to about €15,000), I consider my education to have been free.

Were costs that I wouldn't have had to pay if I wasn't in education - yes. Does that mean that because I wasn't earning the 30k my plumber brother averaged while I was in college mean that I lost 120k because I was in education - no.

Degsy · 27-07-2012 02:49PM

Welease wrote: »

Thats not the question.. Does being charged a fee to go to third level education in this country constitute being "free" in your mind?

You dont pay a fee to go to third level in this country..you may have to pay for regisration or capitation but you DO not,as a rule pay for your tuition.

If you want to enrol in a private educational facility you will see what being "charged a fee" really means.

antoobrien · 27-07-2012 02:50PM

Degsy wrote: »

You dont pay a fee to go to third level in this country..you may have to pay for registartion or capitation but you DO not,as a rule pay for your tuition.

That's a distinction that I fear the poster does not wish to see.

Degsy · 27-07-2012 02:58PM

antoobrien wrote: »

That's a distinction that I fear the poster does not wish to see.

People speak about the "cost" of education and bitch that teachers' wages are bleeding the state coffers white..they do not realise that the state is paying for them to go to school and college and if they were to pay for it privately(along with healtcare) then only the rich would be able to avail.

Welease · 27-07-2012 03:11PM

Degsy wrote: »

People speak about the "cost" of education and bitch that teachers' wages are bleeding the state coffers white..they do not realise that the state is paying for them to go to school and college and if they were to pay for it privately(along with healtcare) then only the rich would be able to avail.

I have not actually complained about the cost of the services provided (in fact its often quoted our spend is one of the lowest within the OECD).. I have pointed out that they do not come "free".. there is a cost attached to providing these services, and in the context of a thread looking at educational and skills shortfalls on an economic forum within a country with a large defecit, it is important that we actually understand the cost of providing these services so that we can implement/expand/contract as necessary to meet the requirements of the future with maximum efficiency...

Or you can sit there and pretend that services are "free" and we can therefore continue to ignore how and why we cannot immediately deliver the required services...

I'd rather focus on #1..

Degsy · 27-07-2012 03:16PM

Welease wrote: »

I have pointed out that they do not come "free".. there is a cost attached to providing these services.

Yes..its the cost of providing free services.

The givt spends billions on free education so people can spend years in college studying Feminist Anthropology,Gender Studies,Racial and Ethnic Studies and History of Art.

Where,pray tell is the benefit to the economy in paying people to go to college to study garbage like this?

Nobody can force people to study languages...they'd be far more picky about the subjects they chose if they had to pay 30k per anum.

Why are the "professional" students in college for 15 years not working for a living? How can they even afford it if its not free?

Welease · 27-07-2012 03:21PM

Degsy wrote: »

Yes..its the cost of providing free services.

Which is the point I am making.. In the context of an economic discussion on education, the cost is not free and the availaility of funding will define how/what/when we can implement changes to our education system. Funding is of key importance.

Degsy wrote: »

The givt spends billions on free education so people can spend years in college studying Feminist Anthropology,Gender Studies,Racial and Ethnic Studies and History of Art.

Where,pray tell is the benefit to the economy in paying people to go to college to study garbage?

I can't answer that.. because it's not relevant to any point or arguement i made..

Max Powers · 27-07-2012 03:26PM

golfwallah wrote: »

For a country with a proud record of economic improvement through constantly growing education spending, why are we witnessing such poor performance in keeping up with changes in the skills and competencies demanded by the market as much as slippage in standards?

For some time now we have been hearing about difficulties in attracting foreign direct investment and employment of Irish people because of:
• Lack of language skills
• Lack of IT skills
• Shortage of engineers and accountants
• Too many people with construction industry skills for which demand has considerably reduced
• Too much of the education budget going on teacher pay and conditions

There is a lot right with our education and skills training system. It has enabled us to be relatively successful in attracting foreign direct investment and enabling new business start-ups up to recently. And even though the system has lost some sense of direction, it still provides a good starting point for the newer skills and competencies required to bring about economic recovery.

We also have a lot of well educated people. However, many with construction industry skills are now unemployed and faced with the choices of staying on the dole, emigration or re-training.

So, is it sufficient to wallow in complaints about inadequacies in the system or can we do something positive about it? And if we can identify the shortfall between where we are and where we should be, why isn’t more happening to resolve the problem? For example, this Irish Times article from last year puts it down to poor marketing to attract students into higher level maths, etc.

After all, the DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS STATEMENT OF STRATEGY 2011 – 2014 opens with the following mission statement (click link for full report): “To enable learners to achieve their full potential and contribute to Ireland’s economic, social and cultural development”.

It goes on to say (paragraph 2.2): “A key element of the Government’s growth and employment strategy is ensuring that we have the right skills to attract, retain and grow job opportunities, investment and growth. In addition to improving education outcomes generally we need to ensure our learners and graduates have the right skills for employment and provide reskilling and upskilling opportunities for the unemployed - particularly those at risk of long-term unemployment.”

Completely overhaul the entire education system. Set up a new education body where existing teachers and newer ones compete for jobs in this system which will replace the old ones.
Teachers deemed suitable will have to commit to completing on-line training in the subject material.
Teachers will be constantly trained in this on-line/cheap training method which keeps pace with industry norms and best practices. They are tested in exams on their knowledge. No pass, no job.
Emphasis on languages, ICT, Engineering, Science
We already have Uni fees disguised as other reg charges, etc, bring in fees full, they are here in all but name
Science, Euro languages, ICT to be thought at primary level.
Scrap loads of those tiny rural schools with <50 less students. Send them to nearest town.
Proper appraisals of teachers at all levels

There is a lot of good work done in the education system at present but a lot disillusionment also thinking they are all brill and doing a great job for our taxes

antoobrien · 27-07-2012 03:26PM

Welease wrote: »

Which is the point I am making.. In the context of an economic discussion on education, the cost is not free and the availaility of funding will define how/what/when we can implement changes to our education system. Funding is of key importance.

It is free as in Gratis

the process of providing goods or services without compensation

The Department of Education provides educational services without asking for compensation providing said services.

Your claim is a bit like saying that because I have to pay a company to allow me to access the internet (the admin fee), boards.ie is not a free service (to those of us who chose not to subscribe).

Degsy · 27-07-2012 03:30PM

Welease wrote: »

Which is the point I am making.. In the context of an economic discussion on education, the cost is not free
..

The cost of providing free public services is the cost of providing free public services.

If its costing too much,privatise the whole shaboozle and then only the rich can afford education.

Then only rich people can afford to go to college to become teachers and only rich people can attend school.

Thats the solution to all our woes.

In the meantime let those who can afford to pay more tax pay more tax to fund the ongoing system... a system that has been severly hamstrung by the greed of the private sector and the resultant multi-billion euro bailout of the private banks with public money.

Welease · 27-07-2012 03:35PM

antoobrien wrote: »

It is free as in Gratis

The Department of Education provides educational services without asking for compensation providing said services.

Your claim is a bit like saying that because I have to pay a company to allow me to access the internet (the admin fee), boards.ie is not a free service (to those of us who chose not to subscribe).

If you are going to keep ignoring what I actually post in the context that it is posted, then can I suggest you reread the original OP's post..

The OP is talking about changes to the education system, the cost of providing those services and the Dept of Education itself.. I have responded numerous times to clarify that we are talking about the cost of education in terms of those economic/state factors.. in that there is limited budget to provide those services so from that perspective there is no "free" education.

If you want to continue to ignore any point I am making in relation to that context, then there seems little point in our interaction.. it just derails the thread further, so I'll politely bow out.

golfwallah · 27-07-2012 03:35PM

Degsy wrote: »

Lovely..they want an increase in education(presumably free :rolleyes:) but want to cut the teachers' pay.

It’s how the money is spent that is more important – just take a look at the educational reforms in Finland, as reported in thejournal.ie:

Finland set out on a radical course of education reform in the 1990’s that saw them shake up their system within the confines of their existing spending.
Their reforms saw them shoot up the rankings and along the way the country has developed one of the largest knowledge (‘smart’) economies in the world.
Early education focuses on cooperation and communication skills, and children don’t begin a formal education in reading and math until age 7, when they also take up a second language.
Teachers follow a curriculum, but have a lot of latitude in how they do it. Homework is limited. There are few exams, as most progress is measured through continuous assessment.
Teachers get shorter holidays as the long breaks are typically used to send them on training courses. Only 15% of those who apply for Finnish teaching posts make the cut, and all have at least a masters degree.
All of this sounds great, even though some of it goes against knee jerk ideas of what a good education system might have. It also sounds rather expensive.
By spending per pupil we actually have an 8% premium on Finland in primary and secondary spending, though they spend 6.9% more at third level.

Interesting that teachers in Finland do their training during school breaks – if only I had a euro for every time I had to listen to the wife complaining about kids getting time off school because of “teacher in training days”.

The approach in Finland also reminds me of a few insightful comments made to me by local businessman, when watching the local GAA “street leagues”, in which both our kids were participating, a few years ago:
“You know, they learn more in 2 weeks of these street leagues than they do in a year at school – teamwork, winning / losing, respect for authority, ability to handle feedback on their performance, competition – in other words a lot more real life stuff than what comes from school books”.

Education and Skills shortfall – where do we go from here?

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