IMF: social welfare benefits 'too high'

djpbarry · 27-07-2012 11:10AM

Heads the ball wrote: »

But it hasnt...

Really? By what measure?

Heads the ball · 27-07-2012 11:48AM

djpbarry wrote: »

Really? By what measure?

By the measures set out in the rest of that post, right after the colon

azzie · 27-07-2012 12:01PM

I know some people who moved from UK to Ireland. In the UK they didn't get any welfare, but here they get Medical Cards, Household Package and €200 a week to top up their pensions. Is the UK mean or are we stupid?

Count Dooku · 27-07-2012 12:22PM

kceire wrote: »

Head The Wall wrote: »

Average private sector wage in the UK is £466 and the public sector is £480. I don't see why there is such a disparity in Ireland's situation.

are we in the UK?

motor tax on a 530d here is €1400, its £250 in the UK. Comparissons work both ways.

Do you mean that in Ireland only PS workers can drive luxury cars,so they must be paid in average more than private sector in average?

djpbarry · 27-07-2012 12:35PM

Heads the ball wrote: »

By the measures set out in the rest of that post, right after the colon

I was referring to quantitative measures.

Gumbo · 27-07-2012 01:29PM

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean that in Ireland only PS workers can drive luxury cars,so they must be paid in average more than private sector in average?

you trying to force words into other peoples mouths again :rolleyes:

I know many private sector workers driving 530d's and also 535d's not to mention M3's etc etc

I dont know many PS workers with those cars, and a quick walk around our carpark proves my point.

Also, a 530d is an example, the same goes for tax on a punto, micra and of course the average mid size car such as avensis, mondeo etc etc etc etc etc etc............

creedp · 27-07-2012 01:36PM

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean that in Ireland only PS workers can drive luxury cars,so they must be paid in average more than private sector in average?

At last the real reason for the inflated public sector pay bill .. I never realised those young successful looking drivers of Audi A6's/BMW 530ds/etc were public sector workers ... I know where to direct my private sector anger (eggs) from now on...

EchoO · 27-07-2012 01:38PM

azzie wrote: »

I know some people who moved from UK to Ireland. In the UK they didn't get any welfare, but here they get Medical Cards, Household Package and €200 a week to top up their pensions. Is the UK mean or are we stupid?

GP visits in the UK are free for everybody, there is a prescription fee of £7.65 per item but pensioners would be exempt. There's not much difference between that and our medical card system. The UK's state pension is the lowest in the OECD.

creedp · 27-07-2012 01:50PM

EchoO wrote: »

GP visits in the UK are free for everybody, there is a prescription fee of £7.65 per item but pensioners would be exempt. There's not much difference between that and our medical card system. The UK's state pension is the lowest in the OECD.

In good auld Ireland a [vulnerable] pensioner can earn €700 a week as an individual and €1,400 as a couple and still qualify for a medical card (and consequently be exempt from the USC). I think one of the big problems in Ireland is defining 'vulnerable'. Maybe we should attempt to include an uniquely Irish version of the term in the dictionary

Heads the ball · 27-07-2012 01:51PM

djpbarry wrote: »

I was referring to quantitative measures.

So was I

EchoO · 27-07-2012 02:03PM

creedp wrote: »

In good auld Ireland a [vulnerable] pensioner can earn €700 a week as an individual and €1,400 as a couple and still qualify for a medical card (and consequently be exempt from the USC). I think one of the big problems in Ireland is defining 'vulnerable'. Maybe we should attempt to include an uniquely Irish version of the term in the dictionary

In the UK anyone over 60, irrespective of income, gets free GP visits and doesn't pay for medication.

Count Dooku · 27-07-2012 02:14PM

kceire wrote: »

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean that in Ireland only PS workers can drive luxury cars,so they must be paid in average more than private sector in average?

you trying to force words into other peoples mouths again :rolleyes:

I know many private sector workers driving 530d's and also 535d's not to mention M3's etc etc

But average pay in private sector in Ireland is still lower ,while in UK is similar

djpbarry · 27-07-2012 02:28PM

Heads the ball wrote: »

So was I

No, you were not.

Ireland's deficit is forecast to be below the EU/IMF target of 8.6% of GDP for 2012. In 2011, the deficit was 9.4%. In 2010, it was ~12%.

djpbarry · 27-07-2012 02:29PM

EchoO wrote: »

In the UK anyone over 60, irrespective of income, gets free GP visits and doesn't pay for medication.

Not to mention free travel passes, which can be worth a lot of money in London.

Head The Wall · 27-07-2012 02:39PM

kceire wrote: »

are we in the UK?

motor tax on a 530d here is €1400, its £250 in the UK. Comparissons work both ways.

No we are not, but we can infer from the similar averages that they can both survive on around the same wage. To even bring in the cost of motor tax as a comparison is bordering on idiocy, unless of course public sector workers pay more motor tax in Ireland than Private sector workers.

You may now want to acknowledge it but there should be no reason for such a disparity between private and public wages in Ireland.

Heads the ball · 27-07-2012 02:45PM

djpbarry wrote: »

No, you were not.

Ireland's deficit is forecast to be below the EU/IMF target of 8.6% of GDP for 2012. In 2011, the deficit was 9.4%. In 2010, it was ~12%.

If you read back over our correspondence you will see that that is not what we were discussing.

And I was referring to quantitative measures.

Gumbo · 27-07-2012 02:54PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

No we are not, but we can infer from the similar averages that they can both survive on around the same wage. To even bring in the cost of motor tax as a comparison is bordering on idiocy, unless of course public sector workers pay more motor tax in Ireland than Private sector workers.

its one thing on a long list of items that is over inflated in Ireland cost wise compared to the UK. One would be bordering on idiocy to not see that. motor insurance, home insurance etc etc

djpbarry · 27-07-2012 02:54PM

Heads the ball wrote: »

If you read back over our correspondence you will see that that is not what we were discussing.

Oh but it was:

Heads the ball wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

People keep harping on about crushing demand while conveniently overlooking the fact that Ireland’s deficit has been reduced quite considerably with relative ease.

But it hasnt: weve had extra income tax, pension levies for civil servants, reduced welfare, extra vat.

By any objective measure, the deficit has been reduced.

What's more, it has been reduced with relatively little effort – welfare, for example, the subject of this thread, has barely been touched. Public sector salaries and staff numbers have barely been touched.

Heads the ball wrote: »

And I was referring to quantitative measures.

A quantitative measure is generally numeric?

djpbarry · 27-07-2012 03:06PM

kceire wrote: »

its one thing on a long list of items that is over inflated in Ireland cost wise compared to the UK.

I could just as easily say council tax in the UK is "over-inflated" relative to Ireland - wouldn't really make much sense though, would it?

Gumbo · 27-07-2012 03:19PM

djpbarry wrote: »

I could just as easily say council tax in the UK is "over-inflated" relative to Ireland - wouldn't really make much sense though, would it?

deffo not, but you get your rubbish collected for that price in the UK

Heads the ball · 27-07-2012 03:21PM

djpbarry wrote: »

Oh but it was:

By any objective measure, the deficit has been reduced.

Oh but it wasnt. Here is what we were discussing:

djpbarry wrote: »

People keep harping on about crushing demand while conveniently overlooking the fact that Ireland’s deficit has been reduced quite considerably with relative ease.

Heads the ball wrote: »

But it hasnt: weve had extra income tax, pension levies for civil servants, reduced welfare, extra vat.

AND we're told more of the same is needed

Might I remind you we have also traded our sovereignty.

So it hasnt been with relative ease for most people

djpbarry wrote: »

What's more, it has been reduced with relatively little effort – welfare, for example, the subject of this thread, has barely been touched. Public sector salaries and staff numbers have barely been touched.
A quantitative measure is generally numeric?

Now that is what we were talking about. Everything I cited was a numeric indicator.

djpbarry · 27-07-2012 04:07PM

kceire wrote: »

deffo not, but you get your rubbish collected for that price in the UK

I’m paying over £1,000 per annum just to have my rubbish collected? I don’t thinks so.

I think the point is that a direct comparison between the cost of living in the UK & Ireland is difficult for a variety of reasons.

Heads the ball wrote: »

Now that is what we were talking about. Everything I cited was a numeric indicator.

You didn’t cite a single figure?

murphaph · 27-07-2012 04:17PM

kceire wrote: »

its one thing on a long list of items that is over inflated in Ireland cost wise compared to the UK. One would be bordering on idiocy to not see that. motor insurance, home insurance etc etc

Yeah but these things cost the same whether person is private or public sector, so the point stands: UK public sector pay is much closer to UK private sector pay than is the situation in Ireland. Why is that? (Hint: costs are irrelevant: both private and public sectors face the same costs).

Heads the ball · 27-07-2012 04:37PM

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m paying over £1,000 per annum just to have my rubbish collected? I don’t thinks so.

I think the point is that a direct comparison between the cost of living in the UK & Ireland is difficult for a variety of reasons.
You didn’t cite a single figure?

If you read my post (the part that you deleted when quoting me earlier - all that part) you will see I dont need to as the point is simple.

K-9 · 27-07-2012 04:38PM

Just a reminder that this thread is about Social Welfare benefits and it seems to have veered off course. I know it is hard not to mention PS pay and taxes in the overall discussion but they seem to be taking over the thread lately. Please try and keep to the thread topic.

djpbarry · 27-07-2012 04:51PM

Heads the ball wrote: »

If you read my post (the part that you deleted when quoting me earlier - all that part) you will see I dont need to as the point is simple.

Well, yeah, you do need to. Let’s stick to welfare. You said that welfare has been reduced, but expenditure on welfare in Ireland is still colossal. So, the point is, welfare has been reduced, but by a very small amount – there is plenty of scope to reduce it further.

Heads the ball · 27-07-2012 05:01PM

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, yeah, you do need to.

No I dont actually but I see a warning re veering off course, so Im going to respect that and not talk outside of welfare.

djpbarry wrote: »

You said that welfare has been reduced, but expenditure on welfare in Ireland is still colossal. So, the point is, welfare has been reduced, but by a very small amount – there is plenty of scope to reduce it further.

Bearing in mind we are talking about welfare alone here (although the general point re reducing the debt was the product of more than just cuts to welfare) its disingenuous to say the cuts were acheived "with relative ease."

I can imagine that it is extremely difficult for many many people on welfare to deal with any cut. Both practically (the numbers are getting tighter and tighter for them) and morally (they must have got sick to see bankers and bondholders laughing to the bank).

I really think its disgusting for people who are not on welfare (assuming you are not) to make these comments like "its easy" and "we can cut plenty more." Why should the most vulnerable in society pay more and more?

EchoO · 27-07-2012 05:06PM

djpbarry wrote: »

but expenditure on welfare in Ireland is still colossal.

Is it? Yes we have a rather large budget deficit, but is our expenditure on welfare colossal compared to other EU countries?

molloyjh · 27-07-2012 05:07PM

Heads the ball wrote: »

I really think its disgusting for people who are not on welfare (assuming you are not) to make these comments like "its easy" and "we can cut plenty more." Why should the most vulnerable in society pay more and more?

Because they are a part of a society where the majority are "being asked to pay more and more". Rather than chase this particular tail around and around maybe you should explain to us why those on welfare should be exempt from having to take a hit while the rest of us are not....bearing in mind the huge expense it places on the State, and therefore by extension those of us taxpayers that are funding the SW and suffering the cuts.

djpbarry · 27-07-2012 05:32PM

Heads the ball wrote: »

I really think its disgusting for people who are not on welfare (assuming you are not) to make these comments like "its easy" and "we can cut plenty more." Why should the most vulnerable in society pay more and more?

Oh please – can we drop this “vulnerable” nonsense once and for all?

Both of my parents are unemployed and have been for some time. They have no mortgage to pay and no dependents any more. They each get €190 odd every week for doing absolutely nothing and will continue to do so indefinitely. I can assure you that a sizeable chunk of that money gets spent on cigarettes and alcohol. What's more, there is absolutely no incentive for them to go looking for a job.

So you’ll have to forgive me for rolling my eyes just a little bit when people tell me welfare in Ireland cannot be cut because it will threaten “the most vulnerable in our society”. There are plenty of welfare recipients in Ireland who could not possibly be described as “vulnerable”.

EchoO wrote: »

Is it? Yes we have a rather large budget deficit, but is our expenditure on welfare colossal compared to other EU countries?

Perhaps I should have qualified that as colossal relative to the total tax take.

IMF: social welfare benefits 'too high'

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