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Travel pass on Aircoach.

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  • 22-07-2012 3:09pm
    #1
    jake is right
    Registered Users Posts: 22,242 ✭✭✭✭


    I understand that the (OAPs) travel pass is not valid on the Ballinteer-Airport route. This seems strange, as it is acceptable on all other Aircoach routes. Anyone any idea why this trip is treated differently?


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    #2
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭thomasj


    jake is right wrote: »
    I understand that the (OAPs) travel pass is not valid on the Ballinteer-Airport route. This seems strange, as it is acceptable on all other Aircoach routes. Anyone any idea why this trip is treated differently?

    That's a decision for the private company air coach and the department of social and family affairs.

    Social and family affairs pay subsides to companys to accept these passes on their services. I doubt aircoach is on the list and I doubt there will be much shift in the pattern in the near future.


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    #3
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    No new services since early 2011 will be allowed to accept free travel passes, this is due to the funding for the travel scheme being frozen so the operator will not be paid for the journey.


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    #4
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    jake is right wrote: »
    I understand that the (OAPs) travel pass is not valid on the Ballinteer-Airport route. This seems strange, as it is acceptable on all other Aircoach routes. Anyone any idea why this trip is treated differently?
    The cork service and any new services will not be accepting the free travel pass due to funding being frozen for private operators.


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    #5
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The cork service and any new services will not be accepting the free travel pass due to funding being frozen for private operators.

    True,up to a point...

    Foggy_Lad quite correctly identifies the freezing of the Free Travel Scheme payment level at 2010/2011 levels.

    However this is across the board with no distinction drawn between public or private services.

    It is also open to ALL operators to accept DSP Passes,but within the agreed Free Travel Scheme budget already in place for that operator.

    Keen observers of the Public Transport scene will surely have noted that,for example, Dublin Bus has shed c.200 vehicles and 350 drivers since 2010....allowing the company to continue accepting DSP passes as before.

    Any operator which commences a new service cannot therefore enter the scheme.

    The DSP Free Travel Scheme is one of the items studied by the IMF team tasked with identifying the likely area's for cost savings within the impressively large DSP portfolio of support schemes.

    With some 699,000 DSP passes in circulation (legitimately) in a country with an Adult polulation of c.3 Million,the ability to maintain or increase funding for such a universally available scheme is now under serious pressure.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #6
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,221 ✭✭✭howiya


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    With some 699,000 DSP passes in circulation (legitimately) in a country with an Adult polulation of c.3 Million,the ability to maintain or increase funding for such a universally available scheme is now under serious pressure.

    That's a shocking statistic. How much is this costing us per annum?


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    #7
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    howiya wrote: »
    That's a shocking statistic. How much is this costing us per annum?
    Free travel pass holders pay the same taxes as everyone else and many have spent their lives paying rates of tax people have nightmares about today!

    Rent supplement for people who have never worked costs a hell of. a lot more per month than free travel does per year.


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    #8
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    howiya wrote: »
    That's a shocking statistic. How much is this costing us per annum?

    The actual heading is under Supplementary Payments and the budget is shared with Household Benefits and Fuel.

    It appears that there has been a bit of an increase in take up rate of the Free Travel Pass.....

    It now stands at.......726,000 :eek:

    http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/CorporatePublications/StrategicPlansAndReports/Documents/ar2011.pdf


    Page 93 has the detailed breakdown....726,412 of whom 348,103 are OAP's.

    Interestingly,there are 99,702 "Others" whose Public Transport requirements are fully met by the DSP.

    There's enough statistics here to choke a horse ;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #9
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,973 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    If the DSP paid a fairer rate per passholder, it would be a big weight of the shoulders of public transport holdings. It's farcical that the DSP pays buttons for something which costs Joe Public over 5 thousand euro anually to purchase. What's more insane is that pass holder numbers are rapidly increasing yet current service levels are being cut to maintain the priviledge of traveling free; it's smacks of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    I don't think anybody is denying that there scheme is wrong though it obviously has lapses within it's working; it's the finances of same need to be looked at first off.


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    #10
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    howiya wrote: »
    That's a shocking statistic. How much is this costing us per annum?
    Free travel pass holders pay the same taxes as everyone else and many have spent their lives paying rates of tax people have nightmares about today!

    Plenty of them look like they haven't paid a penny in tax ever.

    Plenty of them use their free travel to subsidize their nixers and buying/selling.

    It has been agreed time and again on this forum that there is a cohort of society who deserves aid to travel but the golden ticket has turned out to be the wrong way to do it.


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    #11
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,336 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    parsi wrote: »
    Plenty of them look like they haven't paid a penny in tax ever.

    Plenty of them use their free travel to subsidize their nixers and buying/selling.

    It has been agreed time and again on this forum that there is a cohort of society who deserves aid to travel but the golden ticket has turned out to be the wrong way to do it.

    +1 and a lot of people obviously below pension age who flash their disability passes at the drivers don't look very disabled to me.


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    #12
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Free travel is a price solution to an income problem, and worse promotes clientelism. But it allows the government to provide bulk transfers to CIE (and others) which might otherwise be classed as State Aid.

    By all means issue travel warrants to get people who can't or shouldn't drive to appointments but that's it - it shouldn't be a way for people to simply go hither and yon. Hopefully this will be tightened up with the Smartcard, which should give the government information on who is going where and when.


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    #13
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    coylemj wrote: »
    +1 and a lot of people obviously below pension age who flash their disability passes at the drivers don't look very disabled to me.
    And you being a medical doctor and social welfare medical referee are amply qualified to decide who is or is not entitled to free travel? Age is not the only qualifying factor nor is visually noticeable disability.


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    #14
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    dowlingm wrote: »
    By all means issue travel warrants to get people who can't or shouldn't drive to appointments but that's it - it shouldn't be a way for people to simply go hither and yon. Hopefully this will be tightened up with the Smartcard, which should give the government information on who is going where and when.
    don't forget to remove all subvention from C.I.E. companies so they are not getting an unfair advantage over their competitors at the taxpayers expense.


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    #15
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    coylemj wrote: »
    +1 and a lot of people obviously below pension age who flash their disability passes at the drivers don't look very disabled to me.
    And you being a medical doctor and social welfare medical referee are amply qualified to decide who is or is not entitled to free travel? Age is not the only qualifying factor nor is visually noticeable disability.

    Well when one hears anecdotally of people running a small business using their travel pass for swanning around the country concluding deals then one does wonder if the referee is amply qualified.

    When one sees Anto and Decco and Shaz using their pass to travel to visit their friends in jail then one does wonder if the referee is amply qualified.

    Surely the fact that over 600k folk have an entitlement to travel concessions is an indication of a system that is in need of review.

    Edit: For example - should a retired banker on a pension of over €50k be entitled to free travel purely by virtue of their age ?


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    #16
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    parsi wrote: »
    When one sees Anto and Decco and Shaz using their pass to travel to visit their friends in jail then one does wonder if the referee is amply qualified.

    Surely the fact that over 600k folk have an entitlement to travel concessions is an indication of a system that is in need of review.

    Edit: For example - should a retired banker on a pension of over €50k be entitled to free travel purely by virtue of their age ?

    Is visiting someone in jail now a bar to being disabled or elderly or being eligible for free travel?

    How many of those 600k use their passes on a regular basis? most just use theirs to get to the shops or to visit friends and relatives. Is how often they use the pass anyone's business? there is no limit placed on use of the free travel passes.

    Should the same banker be entitled to Childrens allowance for their children earlier in life despite having earlings that most free travel pass holders can only dream about?

    If you want to reply I would suggest you start a new thread instead of taking this one further off track!

    If free travel is to go then all subvention and state aid for C.I.E. Irish Rail, Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus must also go otherwise the state aided companies will have an unfair advantage over companies like Aircoach and others who are able to operate much more efficiently than the state companies!


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    #17
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    If free travel is to go then all subvention and state aid for C.I.E. Irish Rail, Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus must also go otherwise the state aided companies will have an unfair advantage over companies like Aircoach and others who are able to operate much more efficiently than the state companies!

    A point of view not lost on the likes of Aircoach which has deftly moved to maximise cash-fare revenue on it's Cork Express,by reducing it's standard (Free Travel Pass Valid) stage-carriage to virtually nothing.

    Free Pass wielding individuals being swiftly pointed in the direction of Busaras or Parnell Place to the "Old Reliable". ;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #18
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    A point of view not lost on the likes of Aircoach which has deftly moved to maximise cash-fare revenue on it's Cork Express,by reducing it's standard (Free Travel Pass Valid) stage-carriage to virtually nothing.

    Free Pass wielding individuals being swiftly pointed in the direction of Busaras or Parnell Place to the "Old Reliable". ;)
    How do you see Bus Éireann, Irish Rail and Dublin bus surviving without subvention? Which would go to the wall first? I'd say Irish rail is just about there considering they couldn't afford to pay redundancies to those picked out in their latest round of job cuts!


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    #19
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,973 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    dowlingm wrote: »
    By all means issue travel warrants to get people who can't or shouldn't drive to appointments but that's it - it shouldn't be a way for people to simply go hither and yon. Hopefully this will be tightened up with the Smartcard, which should give the government information on who is going where and when.

    Some mornings when I'm getting my bus into work, a woman in about her mid 50's wearing a lilac medical uniform gets on the bus adjacent to two nursing homes. She travels all of 3 stops, alights off nowhere close to a hospital and she uses a DSP pass.

    I wonder what medical appointment she is keeping, clocking out time on the ward? :rolleyes:


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    #20
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Some mornings when I'm getting my bus into work, a woman in about her mid 50's wearing a lilac medical uniform gets on the bus adjacent to two nursing homes. She travels all of 3 stops, alights off nowhere close to a hospital and she uses a DSP pass.

    I wonder what medical appointment she is keeping, clocking out time on the ward? :rolleyes:
    If she is a carer for a holder of the free travel pass then she is entitled to the pass to allow her accompany the person she is caring for! just one of the costly perks the celtic tiger/Fianna Failed government brought us!


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    #21
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    If she is a carer for a holder of the free travel pass then she is entitled to the pass to allow her accompany the person she is caring for! just one of the costly perks the celtic tiger/Fianna Failed government brought us!

    How can she be accompanying somebody if she is on her own?


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    #22
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Beano wrote: »
    How can she be accompanying somebody if she is on her own?
    if you were someone's carer and that person is issued a travel pass you will also be issued a pass which will allow you free travel to and from the persons home and also to accompany that person when they need or want to get out of the house, you also get to use the travel pass at all other times.
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html
    Rules

    You may be entitled to free travel if you are permanently living in the State and:

    You are aged 66 or over
    You are getting Disability Allowance, Blind Pension, Carer's Allowance or an Invalidity Pension from the Department of Social Protection.
    You have been getting Incapacity Supplement or Workmen's Compensation with Disablement Pension for at least 12 months
    You are blind or visually impaired and meet the medical conditions for Blind Pension
    You are a specified carer for a person getting Constant Attendance Allowance or Prescribed Relatives Allowance from the Department
    You are getting a social security invalidity payment, or similar payment, from another EU member state or from a country with which Ireland has a bilateral social security agreement for at least 12 months
    You are a widow or widower or a surviving civil partner aged 60 or over whose late spouse/civil partner held a free travel pass and who is getting one of the following payments: State Pension (Transition), Widow's, Widower's or Surviving Partner's (Contributory) Pension, Widow's, Widower's or Surviving Partner's (Non-Contributory) Pension, One-Parent Family Payment, Widow's, Widower's or Surviving Partner's Pension under the Occupational Injuries Benefit Scheme or a similar social security pension/benefit from an EU member state or a country with which Ireland has a bilateral social security agreement, or an ordinary Garda widow's pension.


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    #23
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    if you were someone's carer and that person is issued a travel pass you will also be issued a pass which will allow you free travel to and from the persons home and also to accompany that person when they need or want to get out of the house, you also get to use the travel pass at all other times.
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html

    Thats just plain wrong. The situation that is, not your answer.


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    #24
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Beano wrote: »
    Thats just plain wrong. The situation that is, not your answer.
    Remember also that this extends to most people who work for the many companies out there who provide home help services and personal assistance services to the different Health service areas.

    Maybe if the large number of recipients was tightened up a bit the likes of Aircoach could once again offer to accept free travel passes from those most in need of their free travel.


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    #25
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Remember also that this extends to most people who work for the many companies out there who provide home help services and personal assistance services to the different Health service areas.

    Maybe if the large number of recipients was tightened up a bit the likes of Aircoach could once again offer to accept free travel passes from those most in need of their free travel.

    sweet suffering jaysus.


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    #26
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Beano wrote: »
    sweet suffering jaysus.
    And when you think of fraudulant use of travel passes these type of people are more likely to be involved as they will be required to have a car as most will have a number of "clients" they visit each day so they dont use the travel pass for work but they may well be tempted to give it to a sister/daughter/son/husband/brother to use while they are working, we already know that most people just flash the pass and drivers allow them onto buses but if every pass was examined and those that are obviously fakes confiscated and people who are obviously not as old/young or a different sex to the person named on the pass denied travel and their passes also confiscated there would be less fraud, but for some reson CIE staff don't want to do this part of their job!


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    #27
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    what next foggy? Force taxi drivers to accept the DSP pass too?


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    #28
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,973 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    dowlingm wrote: »
    what next foggy? Force taxi drivers to accept the DSP pass too?

    Good idea, MD. Plus they need to include the Killarney horse and traps, any cruise ferries stopping in Cobh, the Viking Splash and the passenger train in Liffey Valley shopping centre and the Azooalagical gardens.


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    #29
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    but if every pass was examined and those that are obviously fakes confiscated and people who are obviously not as old/young or a different sex to the person named on the pass denied travel and their passes also confiscated there would be less fraud, but for some reson CIE staff don't want to do this part of their job!

    I seem to recall you posting about a friend that was questioned in such a fashion and you considered it bullying and discrimination ?

    Or maybe it was someone else who posted that - think they also gave out about free travel tickets having a different colour.


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    #30
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    parsi wrote: »
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    but if every pass was examined and those that are obviously fakes confiscated and people who are obviously not as old/young or a different sex to the person named on the pass denied travel and their passes also confiscated there would be less fraud, but for some reson CIE staff don't want to do this part of their job!

    I seem to recall you posting about a friend that was questioned in such a fashion and you considered it bullying and discrimination ?

    Or maybe it was someone else who posted that - think they also gave out about free travel tickets having a different colour.
    That as you well know was in relation to a staff member exceeding their authority and demanding photo id when he had no authority to demand this.

    If there was any issue with validity of the pass it should have been kept and returned to the relevant department for reissuing to the holder if they were enitled to it. Fake passes are easy to spot especialy the home printed ones as they are usually the wrong paper and the font size and spacing and placing of the colour bar is usually wrong. It is also easy enough to check a pass when presented by a middle aged or younger person but the named holder should be elderly. Why more passes are not held or confiscated by dublin bus drivers especially is a real source of concern.


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    #31
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    That as you well know was in relation to a staff member exceeding their authority and demanding photo id when he had no authority to demand this.

    If there was any issue with validity of the pass it should have been kept and returned to the relevant department for reissuing to the holder if they were enitled to it. Fake passes are easy to spot especialy the home printed ones as they are usually the wrong paper and the font size and spacing and placing of the colour bar is usually wrong. It is also easy enough to check a pass when presented by a middle aged or younger person but the named holder should be elderly. Why more passes are not held or confiscated by dublin bus drivers especially is a real source of concern.

    I can only surmise that Foggy_Lad has been away for a while,or perhaps in his quest to lay all blame for all ills at the Bus Drivers feet has just failed the acid test.

    The Forged DSP passes in circulation today are of a VERY high quality,and as with the fake Driving Licences,only identifiable under magnification.

    Dublin Bus revenue teams are confiscating DSP passes on a daily basis,usually due to discrepancies concerning ID or due to illegibility.

    However the DSP themselves appear less than willing to support Dublin Bus efforts by mounting joint operations similar to the Revenue/NTA/Garda Taxi stings which cause such uproar amongst the iffy elements of that trade.

    Why is Photo ID not mandatory for ALL DSP Free Passes ?

    It is perfectly valid,I believe,to seek an explanation from the DSP as to why it has consistently refused to embrace Fraud resistant technology such as Smart-Cards,in favour of a Free-Pass of such a basic and easily forged design ?

    My own belief is that the DSP Free Travel scheme,all 726,000 elements of it is but one of this Governments schemes to keep people sweet....carry them around the place for free and they'll not be too angry..start charging them a fare and they'll go ballistic !

    Perhaps when the relevant responsible agencies have been grilled,can Foggy_Lad come a huntin for Busdrivers scalps....:o


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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