Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13

NukaCola · 24-07-2012 01:26PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

People realise that if we were to win the Uefa Cup, it'd make us a much more attractive proposition for players next year & make it easier for us to keep our existing top players in the likelihood that we don't get CL football this year, right?

The Uefa cup is a second rate competition. It wouldnt sway top players in any way....

Kerrigooney · 24-07-2012 01:32PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Which is why I said in the very post you replied to that the league should take priority.

And yes we should go after every cup we are in. It is an idiotic comment to suggest that a club should not do so. Each cup should be competed for and the quality of the players used to compete for any cup would change depending on how far along the team is in that competition. I have been pretty clear on what I mean by this in my earlier posts today.

amiable wrote: »

I fail to see where anybody accused you of being idiotic.

Right there.

amiable · 24-07-2012 01:33PM

Kerrigooney wrote: »

Right there.

I still fail to see it.

Mr Alan · 24-07-2012 01:35PM

Dickerty wrote: »

Are you asking if people know that winning the UEFA Cup is better than NOT winning it? Seriously?

Well, people seemingly wanting us to throw it leads me to believe some people seem to think it's not better to win it than not win it.

NukaCola wrote: »

The Uefa cup is a second rate competition. It wouldnt sway top players in any way....

If you had a choice between joining a club not in the CL who just won the Uefa Cup or joining a club not in the CL who went out in the group stages of the Uefa Cup....what would you pick?

It is a second rate competition, but that's where we're at. The best way of getting back to being "first rate" is to be the best second rate club around & therefore have the pick of "second rate" players who aren't going to first rate clubs yet. That's the calibre of player I'm talking about, not your Eden Hazards of the world.

Kess73 · 24-07-2012 01:36PM

Kerrigooney wrote: »

Right there.

Really? Right there? I see me saying that the comment was idiotic, I don't see me calling the poster an idiot or calling him idiotic like his first post claimed before he quickly edited it.

Big difference between saying that I think a comment is idiotic and saying that a person is an idiot or idiotic.

Dr Galen · 24-07-2012 01:37PM

While I'll always be in the camp that says you go for it, no matter what the competition, the coming season does see a bit of a change for us over last year.

As Alan says, we're back in the Uefa now and for me that should take priority over the Capital One/Carling/Coca Cola Cup for me, because as Alan quite rightly points out, progressing in the Uefa brings much more kudos that the 3rd tier English cup. That said, if we find ourselves in the latter stages of ANY cup competition then we should be all out to win it.

Next season is going to be a hard one to judge objectively, my take is that we'll see need to see a balance of better league performance and a cup run or two in order to claim it as a success, but tbh, it's going to be much more nuanced than that.

amiable · 24-07-2012 01:37PM

I think it's slightly off topic and I've genuinely thought this for a while that the winners of the UEFA Cup/Europa League should get a place in the Champions League.

Leiva · 24-07-2012 01:39PM

Can we all just not get along .

Kerrigooney · 24-07-2012 01:40PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Really? Right there? I see me saying that the comment was idiotic, I don't see me calling the poster an idiot or calling him idiotic like his first post claimed before he quickly edited it.

Big difference between saying that I think a comment is idiotic and saying that a person is an idiot or idiotic.

Fair enough. My bad.

cson · 24-07-2012 01:40PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

It is a second rate competition, but that's where we're at. The best way of getting back to being "first rate" is to be the best second rate club around & therefore have the pick of "second rate" players who aren't going to first rate clubs yet. That's the calibre of player I'm talking about, not your Eden Hazards of the world.

This is spot on.

At the risk of sounding like Mark Lawrenson, your Barcelona's/Man Citys/Chelseas/AC Milans of this world can only field 11 just the same as anyone else. There is still a lot of talent out there and you only have to look at the likes of Montpellier, Monchengladbach and Braga off the top of my head who have a lot of quality players who'd view Liverpool as forward progress in their careers Champions League notwithstanding. Even look at Newcastle; signed Cabaye who was first choice midfielder for a title winning Lille team. The players are out there.

cson · 24-07-2012 01:42PM

amiable wrote: »

I think it's slightly off topic and I've genuinely thought this for a while that the winners of the UEFA Cup/Europa League should get a place in the Champions League.

Thought this too.

If you did the same for the FA Cup it'd make it interesting as well.

Overall though, I'm torn on this - league is the best barometer of performance and if you finish 4th you've probably deserved the Champions League place.

Kess73 · 24-07-2012 01:42PM

NukaCola wrote: »

What your actually saying is prioritise the league while fielding a strong team to play in cup competitions........ and i'm idiotic? Jeez give me a break, at the moment our squad isn't strong enough to fight on 3 fronts let alone 4, as shown last season when Kenny took your approach and fell apart in the League.

You cant prioritise the league and field strong teams in cup competitions. Not with our squad. Not unless you have a very strong squad.

Show me exactly where I called you an idiot or where I said that you were idiotic. Some people on here are very quick to try and make out a person is using personal insults, so you can go now and back your claim up.

And what I said about the cups was very clear.

the quality of the players used to compete for any cup would change depending on how far along the team is in that competition

is what I said and it is pretty obvious that it means to strengthen the team used for the cups if the club starts to get the the latter stages, and does not mean go with a full team from the get go.

whatawaster · 24-07-2012 01:43PM

amiable wrote: »

I think it's slightly off topic and I've genuinely thought this for a while that the winners of the UEFA Cup/Europa League should get a place in the Champions League.

agreed.

I actually think it's an excellent competition, it's just a pity English and Italian teams don't take it more seriously.

NukaCola · 24-07-2012 01:43PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

If you had a choice between joining a club not in the CL who just won the Uefa Cup or joining a club not in the CL who went out in the group stages of the Uefa Cup....what would you pick?

It is a second rate competition, but that's where we're at. The best way of getting back to being "first rate" is to be the best second rate club around & therefore have the pick of "second rate" players who aren't going to first rate clubs yet. That's the calibre of player I'm talking about, not your Eden Hazards of the world.

Sorry, i misread your post. I thought you meant signing top rate players instead of keeping our top rate players

wonderfullife · 24-07-2012 01:45PM

amiable wrote: »

I think it's slightly off topic and I've genuinely thought this for a while that the winners of the UEFA Cup/Europa League should get a place in the Champions League.

personally i'd be well in favour of rebuilding the value of the English domestic cups. Let's be real - the Carling Cup is a mickey mouse, field your reserves and u-19 side until the semi final type competition, and the FA Cup isn't far ahead for most of the big clubs ....

I'd like to see a 4 team play-off between 3rd and 4th place in the league and the winners of the FA Cup and League Cup. 2 Champions League places for winners, 2 UEFA Cup places for runners-up. It would really make the domestic cup competitions meaningful.

At the end of the day finishing 3rd/4th in the league these days is an immense achievement - 38 games of consistency - but something has to be done to sort out the cups. Only the truly hardcore could argue the Carling Cup has any sort of value as it stands.

amiable · 24-07-2012 01:46PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-J1P34N5RQ

missingtime · 24-07-2012 01:47PM

amiable wrote: »

I think it's slightly off topic and I've genuinely thought this for a while that the winners of the UEFA Cup/Europa League should get a place in the Champions League.

Absolutely. It would make the competition much more attractive.

ush · 24-07-2012 01:47PM

EL is 19 games, if LFC where to go all the way. Thats half a season on something that won't get us nearer the top of the table or CL football. The Thursday-sonday is a mare. I could go on.

Rodgers is going to have to prioritise. I think he realises that. I the onwers expect it. I think the fans in a globalised era 2012 couldn't care about domestic cups and would prefer to see the club focused on league and CL success.

5starpool · 24-07-2012 01:49PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

But Dom, while you are in to your forties at this stage, you still have a couple of decades of work to go. Joe Cole might have four years tops left, and sitting wasting away for the first two of them might completely impair his ability to secure employment for the latter...

40's? Watch yourself Lloyd or I'll kidnap your dog or something.

NukaCola · 24-07-2012 01:50PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Show me exactly where I called you an idiot or where I said that you were idiotic. Some people on here are very quick to try and make out a person is using personal insults, so you can go now and back your claim up.

And what I said about the cups was very clear.

is what I said and it is pretty obvious that it means to strengthen the team used for the cups if the club starts to get the the latter stages, and does not mean go with a full team from the get go.

When it was pointed out by amiable that you did not insult me, i reread the post and edited it, and thanked amiables post. I'm sorry but on first read it did seem like an insult.

As for the cups, its not inconcievable that we could make it to the quater finals of the League and FA cup and make it through the group stages. How then can you play those fixtures in a bid to go after cups?

Priority should be laid out
Eg
EPL Full squad
FA Cup mix of reserves and Youth
League cup Youth
Europa Mix of full squad reserves and youth....

Kess73 · 24-07-2012 01:50PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Well, people seemingly wanting us to throw it leads me to believe some people seem to think it's not better to win it than not win it.

If you had a choice between joining a club not in the CL who just won the Uefa Cup or joining a club not in the CL who went out in the group stages of the Uefa Cup....what would you pick?

It is a second rate competition, but that's where we're at. The best way of getting back to being "first rate" is to be the best second rate club around & therefore have the pick of "second rate" players who aren't going to first rate clubs yet. That's the calibre of player I'm talking about, not your Eden Hazards of the world.

Totally agree with this although it could be argued that right up to the last season or two that Hazard would indeed have been in the best of the second rate/tier bracket.

There are plenty of players in the second tier or whatever one wishes to call it that would be massive upgrades on some of the overrated 3rd and 4th tier players we have at present.

Would winning a UEFA cup raise the club's profile in Europe? Of course it would. Most players want to win things and a club that has recently won silverware that they recognise is most likely going to be seen as a club that may win more silverware and maybe progress to a higher level.

LuckyLloyd · 24-07-2012 01:52PM

5starpool wrote: »

40's? Watch yourself Lloyd or I'll kidnap your dog or something.

My apologies Dom, I meant to suggest you look very young for a fifty year old obviously. A beacon of hope to us all if you will.

Kess73 · 24-07-2012 01:55PM

NukaCola wrote: »

When it was pointed out by amiable that you did not insult me, i reread the post and edited it, and thanked amiables post. I'm sorry but on first read it did seem like an insult.

As for the cups, its not inconcievable that we could make it to the quater finals of the League and FA cup and make it through the group stages. How then can you play those fixtures in a bid to go after cups?

Priority should be laid out
Eg
EPL Full squad
FA Cup mix of reserves and Youth
League cup Youth
Europa Mix of full squad reserves and youth....

What I said is not difficult to understand. The league should be a priority but if the club found itself progressing further in cups, then the teams that get put out for the cup games get stronger the further the club gets in those competitions. What is so hard to get in that? I at no point said to put the first XI out from the start in the cups, I said to use a mix of some of the first XI, some squad filler, and some youth players.

NukaCola · 24-07-2012 01:58PM

Kess73 wrote: »

What I said is not difficult to understand. The league should be a priority but if the club found itself progressing further in cups, then the teams that get put out for the cup games get stronger the further the club gets in those competitions. What is so hard to get in that? I at no point said to put the first XI out from the start in the cups, I said to use a mix of some of the first XI, some squad filler, and some youth players.

I understand it fine thanks. Can you reply to my actual post though now....thanks

Donnielighto · 24-07-2012 01:59PM

Get rodgers an early edition of the FM, it'll show the bargains

Dr Galen · 24-07-2012 02:02PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Would winning a UEFA cup raise the club's profile in Europe? Of course it would. Most players want to win things and a club that has recently won silverware that they recognise is most likely going to be seen as a club that may win more silverware and maybe progress to a higher level.

After the cup successes last season, doing well in the Uefa would be a natural progression for the team, and one that wouldn't go unnoticed by those outside the club. That can't be argued against really.

The Rooster · 24-07-2012 02:03PM

amiable wrote: »

I think it's slightly off topic and I've genuinely thought this for a while that the winners of the UEFA Cup/Europa League should get a place in the Champions League.

Yeah, I really can't understand UEFA's policy on this. It would make the Europa League far more attractive and important. And would open the door for a lot of clubs to have at least an aspiration of the Champions League (think how close Fulham and Middlebrough came to winning the UEFA Cup).

Kess73 · 24-07-2012 02:05PM

NukaCola wrote: »

I understand it fine thanks. Can you reply to my actual post though now....thanks

I did reply to it.

You asked one question in your post which was

How then can you play those fixtures in a bid to go after cups?

My post answered that question with

The league should be a priority but if the club found itself progressing further in cups, then the teams that get put out for the cup games get stronger the further the club gets in those competitions

and

use a mix of some of the first XI, some squad filler, and some youth players.

Seems to me that I did reply to your post, but it was just another post that you appear to have misread like my earlier post that you claimed contained a personal insult until you edited out your claim once another poster explained it to you.

Kess73 · 24-07-2012 02:09PM

Dr Galen wrote: »

After the cup successes last season, doing well in the Uefa would be a natural progression for the team, and one that wouldn't go unnoticed by those outside the club. That can't be argued against really.

Yep, improving in the league and also maintaining some kind of cup presence, be it in one, two or all three, would be the logical upgrade upon last season/target for this season rather than going down the route of either being good in the league/terrible in the cups or good in the cups/terrible in the league.

ush · 24-07-2012 02:12PM

League position is the logical progression. Cup performance is emotional or nostalgic.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13

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