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Gardaí drinking seized alcohol 'common practice'

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  • #32
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Thanks for that. Much appreciated.

    I can't see how there is any shade of grey here: "make and retain, or cause to be made and retained, a record in writing of the manner, date and place of such disposal."





    EDIT: Or do we infer that if the alcohol is seized under one Act a written record must be kept, but not if it's seized under a different Act? That might make a shade of grey alright.




    .

    There is no inference in this law. Thats exactly what is being said.


  • #33
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,737 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Eru wrote: »
    Its pretty straightforward, jobs carry perks.
    Theft is a perk?
    Eru wrote: »
    You know whats really shocking? Sometimes the people in Burgerking, McDonalds and other fast food / takeaways get to take home food at the end of the night.
    Never. Management know if that was the case, then extra food would be prepared, so staff would have more to take home. So as to cut down on losses, such practices are prohibited.

    Of course, given that it could be 1-2 hours between the last food being cooked and people going home, who would want to eat a 2 hour old burger and fries?

    When I worked in McDonalds, the only food staff were allowed have at the end of the day were doughnuts, simply because they were something made off site and just had to be defrosted and had a short shelf life and wouldn't stay fresh to the next day. This meant that the people who took them from the freezer wouldn't be the people eating them. Consumption of small amounts (specially designed cups provided) of soft drinks were allowed, at manager's discretion.

    Food consumed on breaks is covered by the relevant local employment agreement. Typically the allowance can never be used in it's entirety.
    Just because you work for an airline you get cheaper flights and
    Only on flights that would have empty seats anyway and there is effectively no cost to the employer. As they are travelling on a stand-by basis, they may be paying for a near full price flight on the return leg. It may suit air lines to have off-duty staff on-board.
    bank staff benefit from cheaper interest rates.
    And pay BIK on them. Assuming they can get a loan in the current environment.
    In newsagents and book shops they can return only the front cover and then staff get to keep the old newspaper or magazine.
    No. The full copy is returned these days and that has been the case for several years.

    In all of the above cases, the benefits are typically defined in the person's contract and are taxed accordingly.
    The corruption in the private sector is just shocking and I say down with this sort of thing:eek:
    You seem to not understand the difference between a perk* and corruption. And that may be the problem.


    * I, as complainant, once gave a Garda box of chocolates for dealing with a matter. I only thought of giving it after the matter was dealt with and the Garda had no way of expecting it. That is a reward, not greasing a palm.

    When I worked in McDonalds, one branch's policy was that all gardaí in uniform were given free food - I imagine the rules on that have changed both from a Garda and a McDonald's perspective. The only other group that benefited from such a 'perk' were coach drivers who brought a large group.


  • #34
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    goldie fish wrote: »
    There is no inference in this law. Thats exactly what is being said.




    So one Act is a law and the other is a "perk"? ;)


  • #35
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    So one Act is a law and the other is a "perk"? ;)

    Don't twist words.


  • #36
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    goldie fish wrote: »
    Don't twist words.



    Twas but a mild jest. :)

    The word "perk" came from your fellow Boardsie (and colleague?):

    Eru wrote: »
    Its pretty straightforward, jobs carry perks.


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  • #37
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Twas but a mild jest. :)

    The word "perk" came from your fellow Boardsie (and colleague?):

    I sincerely doubt anyone on this site is a colleague of mine. If you want to jest take it to the jesters forum.


  • #38
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    goldie fish wrote: »
    I sincerely doubt anyone on this site is a colleague of mine. If you want to jest take it to the jesters forum.




    If you and Eru are members of AGS then you are colleagues.

    I'll use the word "perk" in all seriousness from now on, as I'm sure Eru meant it.


  • #39
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,737 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    If you and Eru are members of AGS then you are colleagues.
    I am reasonably certain that goldie fish is not an member of AGS.


  • #40
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Hence my question mark in post #36.


  • #41
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,737 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    “Not guilty” http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0712/1224319860909.html


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  • #42
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    "Mr Murphy said he had the cider in his locker for eight months before disposing of it. The cider was taken to a house party and consumed. That was a common practice."

    Accepted as fact in a court of law, therefore?


  • #43
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Victor wrote: »
    Theft is a perk?
    Never. Management know if that was the case, then extra food would be prepared, so staff would have more to take home. So as to cut down on losses, such practices are prohibited.

    Of course, given that it could be 1-2 hours between the last food being cooked and people going home, who would want to eat a 2 hour old burger and fries?

    When I worked in McDonalds, the only food staff were allowed have at the end of the day were doughnuts, simply because they were something made off site and just had to be defrosted and had a short shelf life and wouldn't stay fresh to the next day. This meant that the people who took them from the freezer wouldn't be the people eating them. Consumption of small amounts (specially designed cups provided) of soft drinks were allowed, at manager's discretion.

    Food consumed on breaks is covered by the relevant local employment agreement. Typically the allowance can never be used in it's entirety.

    Only on flights that would have empty seats anyway and there is effectively no cost to the employer. As they are travelling on a stand-by basis, they may be paying for a near full price flight on the return leg. It may suit air lines to have off-duty staff on-board.

    And pay BIK on them. Assuming they can get a loan in the current environment.

    No. The full copy is returned these days and that has been the case for several years.

    In all of the above cases, the benefits are typically defined in the person's contract and are taxed accordingly.

    You seem to not understand the difference between a perk* and corruption. And that may be the problem.


    * I, as complainant, once gave a Garda box of chocolates for dealing with a matter. I only thought of giving it after the matter was dealt with and the Garda had no way of expecting it. That is a reward, not greasing a palm.

    When I worked in McDonalds, one branch's policy was that all gardaí in uniform were given free food - I imagine the rules on that have changed both from a Garda and a McDonald's perspective. The only other group that benefited from such a 'perk' were coach drivers who brought a large group.

    Your wrong on all counts I am afraid, Ryanair have a standard fare for staff regardless of circumstances. True sometimes its cheaper for them to book online like us, but there is still a staff rate. Aer Lingus operate the stand by system.

    BurgerKing and your local Pizza etc always have and always will allow staff to take whatever is left. Worked in Burgerking, McDonalds and Bewleys during college and any opened or booked food that could not for obvious reasons by reused the next day was free to staff. Brother is as we speak an employee of Apache pizza but their boss has limited them to 9" or less now. Local chipper has no qualms about the staff eating whatevers cooked and unused at closing and last time I checked, food in McDonalds and Burgerking has a shelf life of ten minutes under the fifo system so dunno where your getting your 2 hours from. If that was the shelf life in your place I hope I never ate there.

    BIK on reduced interest rates is still reduced interest rates or are you suggesting they pay MORE as a result of getting staff rates? I dont believe thats true though as BIK generaly only applies to free benefits, not ones you pay for.

    Either way, the jury didn't agree with yourself and iwannamoan that it was theft.


  • #44
    Vikings
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭Vikings


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Thanks for that. Much appreciated.

    I can't see how there is any shade of grey here: "make and retain, or cause to be made and retained, a record in writing of the manner, date and place of such disposal."

    The grey area is that disposal is not defined in the act.


  • #45
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Eru wrote: »
    Your wrong on all counts I am afraid, Ryanair have a standard fare for staff regardless of circumstances. True sometimes its cheaper for them to book online like us, but there is still a staff rate. Aer Lingus operate the stand by system.

    BurgerKing and your local Pizza etc always have and always will allow staff to take whatever is left. Worked in Burgerking, McDonalds and Bewleys during college and any opened or booked food that could not for obvious reasons by reused the next day was free to staff. Brother is as we speak an employee of Apache pizza but their boss has limited them to 9" or less now. Local chipper has no qualms about the staff eating whatevers cooked and unused at closing and last time I checked, food in McDonalds and Burgerking has a shelf life of ten minutes under the fifo system so dunno where your getting your 2 hours from. If that was the shelf life in your place I hope I never ate there.

    BIK on reduced interest rates is still reduced interest rates or are you suggesting they pay MORE as a result of getting staff rates? I dont believe thats true though as BIK generaly only applies to free benefits, not ones you pay for.

    Either way, the jury didn't agree with yourself and iwannamoan that it was theft.




    The McGarda Evasive Response Unit is working overtime, I see.


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,178 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    look, realistically if a guard takes a can/opened container of drink off anybody under any act, it is thrown down the drain. probably in front of the person it was seized from.

    other drink is brought back to the station. if someone has ID all they have to do is go down to station with ID and claim it back.

    in a concert/match situation the majority of the alcohol seized is at security on the way in.

    can we start a thread about security companies drinking alcohol seized at these gigs???

    or is it just gardai that we dont want drinking seized alcohol???


  • #47
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    bubblypop wrote: »
    look, realistically if a guard takes a can/opened container of drink off anybody under any act, it is thrown down the drain. probably in front of the person it was seized from.

    other drink is brought back to the station. if someone has ID all they have to do is go down to station with ID and claim it back.

    in a concert/match situation the majority of the alcohol seized is at security on the way in.

    can we start a thread about security companies drinking alcohol seized at these gigs???

    or is it just gardai that we dont want drinking seized alcohol???



    I'm sure you can start a thread about private security companies seizing alcohol/illicit drugs and then consuming it themselves.

    This thread is about the statutory body empowered by the State to uphold and enforce the law.

    I'm still interested to know whether AGS has a Standard Operating Procedure for dealing with such seizures, and if so what is that procedure.


  • #48
    Terrontress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,930 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    Eru wrote: »
    Either way, the jury didn't agree with yourself and iwannamoan that it was theft.
    It's not that simple ERU. I'd say the verdict is more that an individual cannot be held responsible for the widespread culture of misappropriating items which have been stolen and recovered by AGS.

    If exactly the same circumstances were to occur again I'd imagine that the verdict would be different as this case, and the publicity it has generated, has publicly announced the standards which the AGS hierarchy expect.

    ERU, can I ask a simple question which requires only a yes/no answer?

    Are you a serving Garda?

    Obviously you are entitled not to answer or tell me to clear off but I never can quite tell from your answers.


  • #49
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    If Eru's posts are anything to go by, then this Boards member is also a member of AGS.

    See Eru's use of the First Person Plural in these two posts, by way of example:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51810636&postcount=25

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51829303&postcount=30

    However, I can understand why you can "never quite tell" such things in this forum.


    Eru wrote: »
    Its pretty straightforward, jobs carry perks.



    In my opinion, alcohol cannot be compared to burgers, and policing is not just another McJob. On the matter of this country's alcohol culture, and how that might be reflected in the attitudes and behaviour of our police officers in relation to alcohol controls, here are two recent pieces in the Irish Times. The first is a letter that was published on Friday July 13th, and the second is a link to a report in today's paper.

    Trouble in the Park
    Sir, – When I took the 7.15am train from Westport on the morning of the concert, I expected to sleep. But by the time I arrived at the station, the train was fast filling with rowdy concert goers, settling in for the journey with shoulders of vodka and rum and slabs of beer. I overheard an anxious ticket collector calling the controller and requesting a garda to “walk through the train”, concerned as he was about the drink that was being brought on-board. I sat in the first-class carriage in a bid to avoid the chaos, but by the time we reached Manulla Junction the entire train had been besieged by youngsters, bound for the Phoenix Park.

    A group of 22-year-old men surrounded me and worked their way through their stash of booze, alighting the train at each stop to smoke. At one point, the passenger next to me began to crumble cannabis resin into his joint of tobacco. When the train bar ran out of beer they mixed wine with their vodka and continued drinking, growing ever more out of control, heckling anyone who walked through the train.

    By the time we reached Portarlington I had acclimatised to the disorder, but a couple of mild-mannered British tourists, who boarded the train, rendered the drunken scene in a savage new light. What must they have thought I wondered as they gingerly side-stepped a passenger who was flailed out between carriages? Surely it couldn’t have been too far removed from their ancestral accounts of the Irish as a lower evolutionary form? I wondered if the scene evoked for them, as it did for me, the racist rhetoric of the Victorian scientist Charles Kingsley who was haunted by “the white chimpanzees” on his trip to Ireland. – Yours, etc,

    Anatomy of a debacle.




    .


  • #50
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    Maybe all seized alcohol should be forwarded to the Forensic science lab in the park for analysis so that Iwannamoan can rest at ease, sure they arent that busy are they? and if we are going to document every individual can of dutch gold as "Iwannamoan" wants then we may as well go the full hog. We all know that storage is never an issue in garda stations and Sergeants love to see gardai arriving with cans or bottles for storage. I think there are bigger issues out there that Iwannamoan could grasp onto. God love us it takes all kinds to make up the world!


  • #51
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Well Proper Charlie, seeing as how you also seem to be a member of the McGarda, perhaps you could answer the as yet unanswered question: is there a Standard Operating Procedure (or something along those lines) detailing what has to be done with seized alcohol/illicit drugs?


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  • #52
    are you serious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,048 ✭✭✭are you serious


    The standard operating procedure would be open the can pour it out in front of the idiot on the street drinking it, its that simple. :D

    If it is taken to the station, it should then go into the property book, said idiot arrives with i.d and collects drink, if he doesnt drink is thrown out, again its that simple.

    In my experience no drink at all would be opened or taken home or whatever you are trying to imply after it being seized from someone around the streets. It just wouldn't be done. Lets be honest would you drink out of a can/bottle having taken it from someone drinking in the streets??

    But seriously why are you so concerned with such a small issue??


  • #53
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    are you serious wrote: »
    The standard operating procedure would be open the can pour it out in front of the idiot on the street drinking it, its that simple. :D

    If it is taken to the station, it should then go into the property book, said idiot arrives with i.d and collects drink, if he doesnt drink is thrown out, again its that simple.

    In my experience no drink at all would be opened or taken home or whatever you are trying to imply after it being seized from someone around the streets. It just wouldn't be done. Lets be honest would you drink out of a can/bottle having taken it from someone drinking in the streets??

    But seriously why are you so concerned with such a small issue??




    1. Who says it's a small issue?

    2. I'm not trying to imply anything. If you have read this thread from the start -- and noted its title -- you will see that it relates to a court case in which a former Garda claimed (on oath, presumably) that it is "common practice" for Gardai to take away and consume alcohol seized from members of the public. That former Garda was ultimately acquitted, and it seems that his statement about the aforementioned "common practice" was accepted in court.

    3. Actually, now that I think of it, someone else posted a reference earlier to two relevant pieces of legislation, one of which states that "where the member or another member of the Garda Síochána has been given, or has seized, detained and removed, a bottle or container ... the member shall (a) dispose of the bottle or container in such manner as he or she considers appropriate, and (b) make and retain, or cause to be made and retained, a record in writing of the manner, date and place of such disposal."

    4. As a citizen, I'm interested not just in the relevant legislation, but in the details of the way in which that legislation is translated into SOPs set out by Garda management in order to ensure that seized alcohol (and illicit drugs, while we're at it) are properly accounted for.

    5. So, what SOPs are in place, and what records are kept, to 'balance the books' regarding seized alcohol in and seized alcohol returned or "thrown out"?

    It's that simple. Except that a satisfactory answer has not yet been given, IMO.




    .


  • #54
    are you serious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,048 ✭✭✭are you serious


    Are you mentally blocking out the answer I just gave you, or are you looking for an answer that says "oh sure we seize the drink and on the way back to the station we get hammered in the patrol car"

    Seriously cop on pal, I gave you an answer as to what actually happens what more do you want than an answer that say it is seized and put into the property book...

    Do you want to know where it goes after that --> its put into the property room like everything else in the property book, after that it is left there and it would collect dust like everything else in the book. When it(the alcohol) is not claimed it would be thrown out... .......... ............. ................

    As for what happens drugs... your changing your question, is there anything else you'd like to know while were at it....??? Your mad!!!

    I did read the whole thread and after you have been given the answer to what actually happens your still asking the same question, if you have an issue with what actually happens take it further, go to the ombudsman complain to him that every garda station is doing things wrong according to you, and explain to him what you would like done with alcohol that is seized!!!


  • #55
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    are you serious wrote: »
    Do you want to know where it goes after that --> its put into the property room like everything else in the property book, after that it is left there and it would collect dust like everything else in the book. When it(the alcohol) is not claimed it would be thrown out...

    As for what happens drugs... your changing your question, is there anything else you'd like to know while were at it....??? Your mad!!!




    OK, so Garda stations have a property room.

    Seized alcohol is stored there "like everything else" until it's claimed.

    If left unclaimed it is "thrown out".

    I take it therefore that there is a system whereby the amount of alcohol seized is balanced against the amount (a) stored "like everything else" + (b) claimed by its owners + (c) "thrown out"?

    Key issues here are that (1) alcohol is no ordinary commodity like, say, bicycles or bracelets, and (2) a claim was made, and accepted, in court that it is "common practice for unclaimed drink seized during a Garda investigation to be dished out among the members".

    Are these Garda property rooms open for public inspection, by the way? If I went there looking for my bike or bracelet, might I also spot some bottles or cans of booze on the shelves?

    As for illicit drugs, fair enough: being contraband they're a different kettle of fish. I can't imagine any serving or former Garda officer claiming in court that it is common practice for unclaimed narcotics seized during a Garda investigation to be dished out among the members.


  • #56
    are you serious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,048 ✭✭✭are you serious


    I've answered your question yet you come out with another outrageous question, are the stores open to the public to view, seriously.. cop yourself on!!


  • #57
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    are you serious wrote: »
    I've answered your question yet you come out with another outrageous question, are the stores open to the public to view, seriously.. cop yourself on!!


    I would suggest that if the troll required further info he should ask the Commissioner by way of an FOI request.


  • #58
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    goldie fish wrote: »
    I would suggest that if the troll required further info he should ask the Commissioner by way of an FOI request.




    Toys back in the pram then?

    How would you what the situation is regarding alcohol seizures and AGS?

    Clearly you are unaware that AGS is not covered by FOI.


  • #59
    Turner
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭Turner


    goldie fish wrote: »
    I would suggest that if the troll required further info he should ask the Commissioner by way of an FOI request.

    Bravo.

    If they do and get a reply that they wish to post here ill reopen the thread.

    And if anybody is not happy about the manner in obtaining the above they should contact GSOC or contact their local TD or Minister for Justice.


This discussion has been closed.
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