Toilets are for customers use only signs

CIARAN_BOYLE · 02-07-2012 01:36PM #1

Ok I was in a Cafe having a drink yesterday when someone came in off the street and walked into the cafe's toilets despite a toilets are for customers use only sign.

When the person came out of the toilet they were told by staff that using the facilities without being a customer was theft and trespassing and that the cafe would prosecute.

Personally I thought it was pretty funny but the person folded and bought a mineral water put down money and then left.

Anyway it got me wondering would the cafe have had a chance if they took a case or did they succeed in bullying someone into buying something

Zambia · 02-07-2012 01:42PM

They would Prosecute ? Thats good as I am pretty sure no one else would. There is no law against that.

There was an old saying if you went into McDonalds and asked the staff where the toilet was and stated "I will be back in a minute to order"

In short as you walk out sans ordering you have had a "McSh1te with lies"

02-07-2012 01:46PM

come really the guy needed the bathroom should of just let me use it for it

GreeBo · 02-07-2012 01:51PM

^^^^^
What he said

Not sure what grounds they thought they would be prosecuting under though...trespass?

MarkR · 02-07-2012 01:54PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Ok I was in a Cafe having a drink yesterday when someone came in off the street and walked into the cafe's toilets despite a toilets are for customers use only sign.

When the person came out of the toilet they were told by staff that using the facilities without being a customer was theft and trespassing and that the cafe would prosecute.

Personally I thought it was pretty funny but the person folded and bought a mineral water put down money and then left.

Anyway it got me wondering would the cafe have had a chance if they took a case or did they succeed in bullying someone into buying something

*Mrs Bucket voice on slimline white telephone*
Hello? Police? Yes, this is the cafe on main street. A person just walked in off the street and used our toilet without paying for something fist! Yes I realise I called 999, but he did say it was an emergency...

NoQuarter · 02-07-2012 02:25PM

Certainly not theft, trespass MAYBE but even if it was, how on earth would you prosecute that haha! not a chance.

Procrastastudy · 02-07-2012 03:14PM

Just to give the otherside of this folks.

I only spent three months managing a coffee store and it was enough to put me off working with the public permantly.

Firstly - Women - so much worse than men. Men miss and make a bit of a mess - nothing that can't be mopped up. Women - oh my god. Pooh and blood smeered places.

Imagine walking into that - you'd go mental its rarely paying customers that do that. Next bear in mind the person making your lovely beverage / food has had, at some point that day, to clean it up.

Next why the hell should they allow you to use their water and electric. Buy a packet of crisps you tight sods. Either that or let people know they can just walk into your gaff and use the loo.

Dont even get me started about having to try and keep the junkies out.

christmas2012 · 02-07-2012 03:17PM

i think its bullying some one into buying something i wouldnt have bought that beverage,what do you walk into that loo regularly if not,it shouldnt have happened like that..

Victor · 02-07-2012 03:22PM

NoQuarter wrote: »

Certainly not theft

There is a charge of denying the rightful owner of their property. It is their water, paper, electricity.

seamus · 02-07-2012 03:23PM

The shop would certainly have scope for some form of civil action, as you could reasonably say that the person was being dishonest in using the facilities without buying anything. If the sign is there, then its pretty clear that you have no entitlement to use the facility unless you're a customer.

Whether it would be worthwhile doing so is another question, particularly considering that threatening a customer with a criminal prosecution and fairly clearly accusing them of theft could land them with a counter-claim.

Theft of services? Maybe. Perhaps the shop have already consulted a solicitor who told them to go ahead with it.

jblack · 02-07-2012 03:31PM

Action for trespass as any licence to be on the premises is based upon the person being there as a customer, therefor the customer is a trespasser.

There is also an argument for theft but thin.

Damages? - would be based on a nominal award.

Bringing the action = a waste of everyone's time.

GreeBo · 02-07-2012 03:36PM

Could you be done for illegal dumping?:pac:

NoQuarter · 02-07-2012 04:22PM

Victor wrote: »

There is a charge of denying the rightful owner of their property. It is their water, paper, electricity.

Lets just say I would be happy to defend that charge!

jblack wrote: »

Action for trespass as any licence to be on the premises is based upon the person being there as a customer, therefor the customer is a trespasser.

There is also an argument for theft but thin.

Damages? - would be based on a nominal award.

Bringing the action = a waste of everyone's time.

Is trespass actionable per se? If not, there wont have been any damage done to take an action.

Our man in Havana · 02-07-2012 07:00PM

Well if the trespasser defiled the toilet and left it in a state would that not be actionable?

jblack · 02-07-2012 07:15PM

NoQuarter wrote: »

Lets just say I would be happy to defend that charge!

Is trespass actionable per se? If not, there wont have been any damage done to take an action.

Yep, thus nominal damages.

Corholio · 02-07-2012 07:17PM

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Just to give the otherside of this folks.

I only spent three months managing a coffee store and it was enough to put me off working with the public permantly.

Firstly - Women - so much worse than men. Men miss and make a bit of a mess - nothing that can't be mopped up. Women - oh my god. Pooh and blood smeered places.

Imagine walking into that - you'd go mental its rarely paying customers that do that. Next bear in mind the person making your lovely beverage / food has had, at some point that day, to clean it up.

Next why the hell should they allow you to use their water and electric. Buy a packet of crisps you tight sods. Either that or let people know they can just walk into your gaff and use the loo.

Dont even get me started about having to try and keep the junkies out.

In what way could you possibly prove this??

Tigger · 02-07-2012 07:26PM

cafe in sligo where me and the college group played chess and cards
we drank espresso etyc in their overpriced hole because it was quiet

one day i went in, and went straight to the bathroom i was expecting a friend to meet me there

came out and the owner (who was hardly ever there in the afternoons ) starts yelling that the toilets are for customers only

she says shes seen me in before and i nurse a mineral water

(i did but i paid for most of the coffees and othef crap my friends drank as i was self employed and thet were poor and i don't do caffiene)

long story short they shut six weeks later

footfall is footfall and busineses should be reminded of that

Procrastastudy · 02-07-2012 07:54PM

Corholio wrote: »

In what way could you possibly prove this??

When you have a buzzer going off ever ten minutes to do a loo check - you have one loo and a fairly regular customer flow you can take a good guess.

That said I I couldn't prove it beyong a reasonable doubt - luckly I only need a perponderance of evidence.

And a spell checker.

ScouseMouse · 02-07-2012 08:06PM

Tigger wrote: »

footfall is footfall and busineses should be reminded of that

Rubbish! In business we have a saying.

Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity!

In other words, theres no point being busy if you are making no money. I was once asked by a multi-millionaire, "what is a business?". His reply? A finely tuned money making machine.

A busy business is pointless unless it makes a profit.

ScouseMouse · 02-07-2012 08:36PM

And to add (now the washing machine is fixed).

Whats the better business ?

One thats full every night and makes a million euro?

Or one thats quiet but specialised and makes five million?

Footfall is only relevant if it makes you money, any fool can work for nothing.

As for the owner attacking you, he probably knew he was closing down then, and he blamed it on someone sitting over a water for hours. Maybe right, maybe wrong.

NOW, back on topic.....

ectoraige · 03-07-2012 07:44AM

Tigger wrote: »

one day i went in, and went straight to the bathroom i was expecting a friend to meet me there

:eek: Is that you George?

Regarding the trespass, given that the café is open to the public, would the courts in practice not expect the owner to have first advise the customer of his trespass and give an opportunity to leave the premises? What weight would the sign carry, given that it could be missed by somebody in a rush desperate to use the toilet?

Also, what is a "customer" for a café? There are places that I would consider myself to be a regular customer and would have no problem going in to use their toilet if I or my children were caught short. If I saw a sign saying customers only I would still feel I was a customer. Should the sign have explicitly stated that using the toilets without first making a purchase is trespass?

Either way, even if there was a case, I'm not sure the damage to the café's goodwill would be worth it.

bureau2009 · 03-07-2012 12:52PM

I seem to remember hearing a discussion on (I think) Pat Kenny's radio show about this.

And I *think* that, by law, publicians are obliged to let people use their toilet facilities.

Anyone know anything about this?

* And of course the real issue is BAD PLANNING and lack of public facilities.........

seamus · 03-07-2012 12:59PM

bureau2009 wrote: »

And I *think* that, by law, publicians are obliged to let people use their toilet facilities.

Nope

Pubs, like any other business serving food or drink for consumption on the premises, are required to have toilet facilities for customer use.

They are entitled like every other business to enforce a "toilets for customers only" rule. I should know, I tried to use the "I only want to go in for a pee" trick a number of times as a student

Allegedly an old trick to get around this was to ask for a glass of water at the bar, wait until it was served and then use the toilet because you're now a "customer", having been served.

There used to be lots of old wives tales from old Ireland that if someone knocked on your door and asked for a glass of water you were legally required to give it to them, and that pubs were required to let you use their toilets. I think though that these were merely good conscience customs from the days when someone might walk for hours to get around the place, rather than actual laws.

seb65 · 03-07-2012 03:27PM

In one case, the courts ruled that guards who had gone into a pub incognito as customers, but in reality to investigate illegal gambling were trespassers. The OP's scenario may be analogous.

That said, I'd imagine any court would have little time for such nonsense.

Procrastastudy · 03-07-2012 03:59PM

There are set numbers of toilets required for set number of people in the establishment. There is also a requirement for seprate staff toilets on H&S grounds. That said it's not strictly enforced.

GerardKeating · 03-07-2012 04:21PM

NoQuarter wrote: »

Certainly not theft, trespass MAYBE but even if it was, how on earth would you prosecute that haha! not a chance.

How about theft of Soap and Tiolet paper, but one might need CCTV in the tiolet to prove they had actually used them, since not all people do.

NoQuarter · 03-07-2012 04:43PM

GerardKeating wrote: »

How about theft of Soap and Tiolet paper, but one might need CCTV in the tiolet to prove they had actually used them, since not all people do.

Well in order for that they would actually have to have stolen them, which is not the case here, so yours is a moot point. Besides, customers can do that too.

Cianos · 03-07-2012 04:54PM

I always ask the person working there can I use their toilet first - have never been refused and have never had an unfriendly reaction. This way they don't feel their premises is being taken advantage of, and also if they do refuse they'll come across as d!cks to the others sitting around within earshot.

helimachoptor · 03-07-2012 04:59PM

Agreed, even in an utter emergency you can spare a couple of seconds to ask, no one has ever refused me

Victor · 04-07-2012 01:16AM

Realistically, the priorities are to keep out people who would use the toilets for activities other than using them as toilets and then reserving them for paying customers.

NoQuarter wrote: »

Well in order for that they would actually have to have stolen them, which is not the case here, so yours is a moot point. Besides, customers can do that too.

No, depriving the rightful owner of possession is an offense.

CCTV not required - they could have number the sheets of toilet roll.

fasttalkerchat · 04-07-2012 11:17AM

Heard this from a customer:
"You have to let me use the toilet, its the law of the land"

Me:
"Its not. We don't have a customer toilet."

Her:
"You're breaking the law, you cant refuse anyone to use a toilet"

Me:
"I'll call into yours on the way home from the pub

"

Toilets are for customers use only signs

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