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The district court and driving offences......my experiences.

  • 19-06-2012 05:49PM
    #1
    BRAIN FEEDs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭


    Was in the district court last week as an observer for 2 days.

    the amount of times i saw drivers up on speeding charges are too many to remember.
    almost all of them were struck out.......... why? because the person summonsed said they never received the fine in the post,the first they heard of the offence was when the summons arrived.

    judge: "why didnt you pay the fine?"

    your honour i didnt receive any fine just this summons.

    judge: "have you any questions guard?"

    no judge....

    judge:"case dismissed,thank you for your time,you can go now"


    any comments on this?

    Btw,there were people there who had USA and Hungarian driving licences... what a joke.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    which court.

    Was it Chancery Street court 44 by any chance??


  • #3
    BRAIN FEEDs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭BRAIN FEEDs


    paddy147 wrote: »
    which court.

    Was it Chancery Street court 44 by any chance??
    It was Ennis district court.........

    2 days,2 different judges.


  • #4
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    BRAIN FEEDs wrote: »
    It was Ennis district court.........

    2 days,2 different judges.


    The judge in Court 44 today was not having any of it with anyone who tried that excuse on.

    They all got fines and the gardai all came prrepared with all their evidence..


  • #5
    BRAIN FEEDs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭BRAIN FEEDs


    paddy147 wrote: »
    The judge in Court 44 today was not having any of it with anyone who tried that excuse on.

    They all got fines and the gardai all came prrepared with all their evidence..
    :eek: wow wow wow............ this isnt the 1st time ive seen foreigners and irish people using this excuse,i witnessed it 2 years ago also,when i was an observer................


  • #6
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,734 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Until the GFPO starts sending notifications by registered post, this excuse effectively *has* to work.

    Its impossible to know if you've been caught by a camera and indeed impossible to pay the fine even for a case where you're stopped without the docket.

    Despite the fact that it would inevitably *save* money due to not having to issue as many summons, waste of court time, etc, they appear unwilling to do this.


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  • #7
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,227 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Why doesnt the judge just say "well your here now and you've known about the fine since the summons came at the very least, cough up"


  • #8
    cadaliac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,904 ✭✭✭cadaliac


    I don't get it. Two courts and two different sets of laws:confused:
    They stopped using that excuse in cork a year or more ago. Must be a local knowledge thing, as in everyone knows what he judge will do.


  • #9
    BRAIN FEEDs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭BRAIN FEEDs


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Why doesnt the judge just say "well your here now and you've known about the fine since the summons came at the very least, cough up"
    probably because the fine is more for a court appearance and if the defendant didnt receive the inital fine in the post,then justice has not taken place because they can claim they wernt given the option.


  • #10
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    It shouldnt matter if they didnt recieve a fine in the post or not,the fact is they committed the offence,its a waste of tax payers time and the garda time its ridiculous..


  • #11
    MugMugs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,871 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    Perhaps I am off the mark here but all it would take is for Thurles to show that it was sent and show that it hasn't been returned.

    Would that not suffice in showing that the excuse is BS?


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  • #12
    Reloc8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Reloc8


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Why doesnt the judge just say "well your here now and you've known about the fine since the summons came at the very least, cough up"

    When a summons issues the penalty points go up from 2 to 4 on conviction (as does the maximum fine). All anybody really cares about is the points - 4 is a fair chunk to get in one go for a simple speeding.

    Basically, the legislation states that a summons can issue after a person has been served with penalty points notice - affording them an opportunity to pay a lesser amount and receive 2 penalty points.

    If the person doesn't receive the notice, then they never got the chance to do this, and moreover the statutory pre-condition for a prosecution wasn't met, hence case dismissed.

    If a person swears that they didn't get the notice, it is difficult for a judge to convict (although some 'have none of it', these cases are generally reversed on appeal).

    Solutions :-

    1. Serve fixed fine penalty point notices by registered post or personally (expensive...), or

    2. Give a judge a discretion on how many penalty points to impose up to a stated maximum. Currently, there is no discretion if a conviction is imposed (oh so you didn't receive the notice. Not a problem. 2 penalty points sir, and a €500 fine).

    (also would need to tweak some of the techincal bits of the RTA regarding issue of fixed fine penalty points notice but very doable).


  • #13
    BRAIN FEEDs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭BRAIN FEEDs


    [QUOTE=christmas2012;79293977]It shouldnt matter if they didnt recieve a fine in the post or not,the fact is they committed the offence,its a waste of tax payers time and the garda time its ridiculous..[/QUOTE]of course it should matter...... if ther is a procedure in place then it should be followed.

    BTW its only a charge against a driver,its not an offence until proven and judgement has been passed. semantics? we are talking about law here.


  • #14
    Drummerboy08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,090 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    It shouldnt matter if they didnt recieve a fine in the post or not,the fact is they committed the offence,its a waste of tax payers time and the garda time its ridiculous..

    The registered owner may not always be the driver, so it's only fair that the owner has the opportunity to figure out if it was them driving, or if it was someone else driving the vehicle.


  • #15
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    If they weren't sending fines for 5km/h over the limit it would be feasible to send every fine by recorded post.


  • #16
    BRAIN FEEDs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭BRAIN FEEDs


    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    The registered owner may not always be the driver, so it's only fair that the owner has the opportunity to figure out if it was them driving, or if it was someone else driving the vehicle.
    which reminds me of another case.........

    Father owns car,but the son drives it.son gets pulled over,gets summonsed for 4 bald tires.
    cop tries,and fails to have fines issued on both the owner and driver of the car.Judge says the cop is within his right to summons both for the same offence but this is highly unusual and just imposes fines on the driver,which was 100e for each bald tire


  • #17
    Drummerboy08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,090 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    BRAIN FEEDs wrote: »
    which reminds me of another case.........

    Father owns car,but the son drives it.son gets pulled over,gets summonsed for 4 bald tires.
    cop tries,and fails to have fines issued on both the owner and driver of the car.Judge says the cop is within his right to summons both for the same offence but this is highly unusual and just imposes fines on the driver,which was 100e for each bald tire

    Is the registered owner (in this case the father presumably) responsible for ensuring the vehicle is in a roadworthy condition. AFAIK, they're not. Therefore the driver should really be the only person liable for the summons here?

    Maybe I'm wrong though.


  • #18
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    I think we must have a serious problem with the services An Post offer. There cannot be this amount of mail going missing and especially just fines.
    Maybe it's An Post and the postmen/women who should be looked at.


  • #19
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    hondasam wrote: »
    I think we must have a serious problem with the services An Post offer. There cannot be this amount of mail going missing and especially just fines.
    Maybe it's An Post and the postmen/women who should be looked at.


    A garda traffic corp asked a similar question of a young lady today in court 44,chancery street.

    Have you written to or contacted An Post and complained/asked about the poor postal service to your address.

    She had claimed that she hadnt recieved the 1st fine,but then only got a summons in the post.

    The judge found in the garda's favour and slapped the girl with the heavier fine for speeding.


  • #20
    bcmf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭bcmf


    There is a judge who sits in North County Dublin detests any motoring offence.
    He imposes no less then maximum for any motoring offence. There was a guy who late last year was banned from driving for 30 (thirty) years as he was caught driving while banned with only 3 days left to go of his ban.


  • #21
    BRAIN FEEDs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭BRAIN FEEDs


    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    Is the registered owner (in this case the father presumably) responsible for ensuring the vehicle is in a roadworthy condition. AFAIK, they're not. Therefore the driver should really be the only person liable for the summons here?

    Maybe I'm wrong though.
    i would have agreed with you,but i saw different in the court.
    hondasam wrote: »
    I think we must have a serious problem with the services An Post offer. There cannot be this amount of mail going missing and especially just fines.
    Maybe it's An Post and the postmen/women who should be looked at.
    hahaha, you know as well as i do that all these fines could not possibly,or could they?,go missing. ppl just taking a chance and getting away with it.


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  • #22
    TestTransmission
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,100 ✭✭✭✭TestTransmission


    paddy147 wrote: »
    A garda traffic corp asked a similar question of a young lady today in court 44,chancery street.

    Have you written to or contacted An Post and complained/asked about the poor postal service to your address.

    She had claimed that she hadnt recieved the 1st fine,but then only got a summons in the post.

    The judge found in the garda's favour and slapped the girl with the heavier fine for speeding.

    The summons comes by registered post doesn't it?


  • #23
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    BRAIN FEEDs wrote: »
    which reminds me of another case.........

    Father owns car,but the son drives it.son gets pulled over,gets summonsed for 4 bald tires.
    cop tries,and fails to have fines issued on both the owner and driver of the car.Judge says the cop is within his right to summons both for the same offence but this is highly unusual and just imposes fines on the driver,which was 100e for each bald tire

    Owner can be done for allowing someone drive a car without insurance for eg.
    BRAIN FEEDs wrote: »

    hahaha, you know as well as i do that all these fines could not possibly,or could they?,go missing. ppl just taking a chance and getting away with it.

    Of course they don't go missing, it's the chance you take going to court and if you fail to persuade the judge you get a hefty fine and double points.
    TestTransmission wrote: »
    The summons comes by registered post doesn't it?

    Are these not hand delivered by the guard?


  • #24
    BRAIN FEEDs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭BRAIN FEEDs


    paddy147 wrote: »
    A garda traffic corp asked a similar question of a young lady today in court 44,chancery street.

    Have you written to or contacted An Post and complained/asked about the poor postal service to your address.

    She had claimed that she hadnt recieved the 1st fine,but then only got a summons in the post.

    The judge found in the garda's favour and slapped the girl with the heavier fine for speeding.
    Seriously paddy............. i did say to the mrs after i reported what i seen in the court,that all one has to do is send a registered letter to an post,and say you have had missing post recently,if one did get a fine and ignored it,next up will be a summons and one could produce this letter and from my experience,case would be dismissed:confused:


  • #25
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    BRAIN FEEDs wrote: »
    Seriously paddy............. i did say to the mrs after i reported what i seen in the court,that all one has to do is send a registered letter to an post,and say you have had missing post recently,if one did get a fine and ignored it,next up will be a summons and one could produce this letter and from my experience,case would be dismissed:confused:

    It all depends on the judge not everyone gets off like this. He can ask you to swear on oath that no fine arrived in the post and I know of one case where he asked if everyone in the house would come to court and swear on oath.


  • #26
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    BRAIN FEEDs wrote: »
    Seriously paddy............. i did say to the mrs after i reported what i seen in the court,that all one has to do is send a registered letter to an post,and say you have had missing post recently,if one did get a fine and ignored it,next up will be a summons and one could produce this letter and from my experience,case would be dismissed:confused:


    Yep,seriously.

    The judge (female judge) quizzed the lady in question about it.
    Garda had the dates of which the 1st fine was issued and also the summons.

    When the lady said she only recieved the summons and not the 1st fine,and when the garda asked her if she had written to An Post and she said no...then the judge found in favour of the traffic corp garda (Dublin Castle) and hit her with a 300 euro fine,as the lady had pleaded not guilty.

    She swore under oath and had pleaded not guilty,as she wanted to ask some questions to the judge and garda,and they overlooked her and she got a bigger fine.


  • #27
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    Alot of people tried this " I never got the fine in the post" excuse today in Chancery Street,and none of them got their cases struck out.

    All of them got fined by the lady judge and the gardai were well on top of their game too.


  • #28
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,734 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    paddy147 wrote: »
    A garda traffic corp asked a similar question of a young lady today in court 44,chancery street.

    Have you written to or contacted An Post and complained/asked about the poor postal service to your address.

    Not particularly a useful question to ask - how precisely are you meant to know if you're not receiving post? You don't get a card saying "we lost something" (usually - I did once get one saying there'd been a postal robbery)

    I get precisely bog all post - all my bills are online, the only post I usually get is from my incompetent bin company sending me stickers for the wrong package, every two months, for some surreal reason. There is absolutely no way in hell I'd know if there was poor postal service here.


  • #29
    Colonel Sanders
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    hondasam wrote: »
    I think we must have a serious problem with the services An Post offer. There cannot be this amount of mail going missing and especially just fines.
    Maybe it's An Post and the postmen/women who should be looked at.

    I've lived at my current address for 4 years. Postal service is an absolute joke. I've lost count of how many letters I've had gone missing (and that's just the stuff I know about). Between missing post & stuff marked "Private & Confidential" being left in the porch because the postman is too lazy to put it in the letter box nothing would surprise me

    Alas the one speeding notice I was ever sent was delivered :-)


  • #30
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    Post can get lost but it's the amount of these fines that are getting lost that is the joke. The guards point with the lady was is this an ongoing issue with An Post or it a once off.
    How much would it cost to register all these fines? is it worth it really.


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  • #31
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    I think the judge and their attitude/humor on the day plays a part too.

    You can be lucky or unlucky on the day.


This discussion has been closed.
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