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The logical argument

  • 15-06-2012 08:32PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭smegmar


    Just to clarify I'm atheist, and some of my best friends have been gay. I'm not doing any gay bashing here, just some intelligent points I want to put to you all.
    Firstly to clarify this is "The logical argument against same sex marriage" and most definitely not "the logical argument against homosexuals; the practice of homosexuality and/or any opposition to traditional marriage".

    What we plan to underline is why two members of the same sex should not gain the legal, financial and social equality to other marriage types. Firstly we must clearly and concretely define what we are speaking about.
    The two words that come up are "Marriage" and "Same-sex/Homosexual". Now we shall look at "marriage" and define what it means in this instance.

    Marriage is a social institution almost as old as first human civilisation. It has existed in many forms, in many different cultures, some group, some polygamous, and very rarely same sex, but the overwhelming majority in all cultures is the "traditional" marriage of one man to one woman. When you consider how old the tradition of marriage is, it must be clear that marriage is an important and universal concept. Originally marriage between a man and a woman was a contract of sexual exclusivity in order to ensure paternity of any offspring. In short a behaviour so that a man will know that any children his wife bares are biologically his own, of course the woman will already know. We see here that exclusive marriages are a behaviour that ensure a man will spend his time caring for his own biological children and not those of another man. Biologically this is hugely beneficial and time saving for males that previously needed to defend jealously defend any woman which whom they had mated. Also the woman ensures a male that will protect and care for her young. Both parties win in this situation and so the institution of heterosexual marriage was seen as very important and bound into culture and religions of the world.

    Here's a dictionary definition to use later on. Marriage: "a behavioural contract of life-long sexual exclusivity, between two or more parties, in order for a male to ensure paternity of young born to a female." We'll come back to this a little bit later.

    Secondly we must tackle the homosexuality part. Homosexuality has also existed for a very long time, also somewhere around the beginning of civilisation, however this was considered, until recently, as an activity rather then a lifestyle or predisposition. Ancient Greeks seemed to show strong preference for any extended period of time. Now let us look at the word homosexual and define it. Merriam Webster defines it as so; "of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex". Though there is still some debate whether homosexuality is a conscious choice, We will use the addition of "sexual desire, and acting upon these desires, toward another of the same sex".

    So now we have two behaviours. Marriage and homosexuality. Both aren't physically compatible as we have noted them, as marriage requires one partner to bare children. A person can only act in both if we remove "in order for a male to ensure paternity of young born to a female". Are two statements read as follows;
    "A behavioural contract of life-long sexual exclusivity between two or more parties."
    " A tendency to direct sexual desire, and acting upon these desires, toward another of the same sex."

    Now both of these definitions are possible for someone, so inclined to simultaneously accomplish.
    Given the base of liberty and freedom of choice in most western constitutions, neither of these actions effect anyone outside of the marrying persons and cannot be objected against, so problem solved? Sadly not, this is not considered a "gay marriage" by those advocating for it's legalisation. Rather a long term gay sexual relationship. In essence Gay marriage has been legal in most western countries for many years, and yet there is still a campaign to "legalise gay marriage".

    To understand this continued effort we must once again alter our aforementioned definition of marriage. What is being campaigned, debated and legislated for is civil marriage rights equal to that of Heterosexual "traditional" marriage. This includes but is not limited to: prison visitation rights, will and inheritance rights, tax deductions and incentives, social acceptance and normalisation and legal recognition of union. Adoption right by same-sex couples has been purposely omitted as we see it as a different issue.

    Some issues listed above should be compatible with constitutional rights, effecting no person outside of the marrying persons, such as visitation rights and inheritance rights. A problem is caused with Tax deductions or incentives, Legal recognition of union, and social acceptance.

    Tax deductions and incentives for "traditional" married couples were introduced as a way to encourage couples to marry and make a stable base for raising their biological children. However if this is applied to a same-sex couple, discounting the possibility of adoption, the tax deduction or investment is fruitless. All tax payers would then be effected by the act of same-sex marriage. They must have the right to object, just as any taxpayer can object to any governmental tax reduction or spending initiative.

    Furthermore social acceptance is no something any amount of legislation or lobbying can change. It is the collective opinion of a populous on a subject, which must be left to the individuals free will. Should a governmental body act in any way to influence the opinions of its people, positively or negatively, it would be an offence to the free judgement of it's citizens and unbiased nature of any constitution.

    The third and final point Legal recognition of Union is difficult as it brings us back to one of our original points and the exact definition of homosexual. What is it to be homosexual? Nature or Nurture? Is it something that should be something governments or organisations do to encourage? Do we accept it as equal in all aspects or differentiate the clear deviations from the norm? These are all very difficult moral and philosophical questions that each person can come to their own answer which in any case is philosophically right. Therefore only by referendum can any legislation on the union of same-sex couples be accepted as valid and lawful.

    Now I hope you can see that there is logical non religious reasoning against same sex marriage, even if it has not changed your mind maybe you can think and act differently in the debate on this issue. As always, more information, more knowledge and more opinions, are immeasurably beneficial to intelligent debate that furthers society.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Captain Graphite


    Here's a dictionary definition to use later on. Marriage: "a behavioural contract of life-long sexual exclusivity, between two or more parties, in order for a male to ensure paternity of young born to a female." We'll come back to this a little bit later.

    And which top selling 18th Century dictionary does this definition come from? Here's a more modern one from Merriam-Webster: as you can see, it includes a reference to same sex marriage and nothing whatsoever about child bearing.
    Definition of MARRIAGE

    1
    a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage>
    b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock
    c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage
    So now we have two behaviours. Marriage and homosexuality. Both aren't physically compatible as we have noted them, as marriage requires one partner to bare children.

    Since when have children been a requirement? Plenty of married couples choose not to have children. Others are physically incapable due to infertility or other medical issues. Should these couples have their marriage licences revoked because some archaic dictionary states that children must be present for it to be a "traditional marriage"?
    Furthermore social acceptance is no something any amount of legislation or lobbying can change. It is the collective opinion of a populous on a subject, which must be left to the individuals free will. Should a governmental body act in any way to influence the opinions of its people, positively or negatively, it would be an offence to the free judgement of it's citizens and unbiased nature of any constitution.

    Gay-bashing, homophobic discrimination etc. are certainly acts that governments should endeavour to act upon, regardless of how many "dem gheys iz unnatural" voices happen to be among the populace. You can't force social acceptance but you can, and should, prevent violence and discrimination. If Johnny down the road wants to say how much he hates the gays, then that's his business. But if he bashes someone's skull in for being gay, then that's an entirely different matter.
    The third and final point Legal recognition of Union is difficult as it brings us back to one of our original points and the exact definition of homosexual. What is it to be homosexual? Nature or Nurture? Is it something that should be something governments or organisations do to encourage?

    What, should the government encourage people to be gay?! Is that a serious question? I think pretty much all LGBT people will tell you that sexuality is not something you can change on a whim; you can't flick a switch from gay to straight or ransgender to cisgender. Are straight people only straight because they choose to be that way?

    I really don't see much logic or intelligent argument against gay marriage in that post tbh.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    If you think that is a strong argument, you need to read more. Not about same-sex marriage as such, anything would do.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 223 ✭✭checkcheek


    Ye gotta agree. I don't see any logic. Once I read that a marriage needs kids to be valid I stopped reading. Cause there is no logic at all in that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Ambersky


    Id say smegmar the way you put the title The Logical argument suggest you are putting your post up against the Illogical argument which would be ours here in the LGBT forum. Yours is logical and the counter arguments are likely to be deemed Illogical as you have already set up the bar for what is considered logic.
    some of my best friends have been gay
    Puullleease!
    and just noticed have been gay.

    You are just giving us some intelligent points, sigh.
    In case you havent noticed there is already a thread here on marriage.
    I think this is a set up to get us all to argue with you for your entertainment I dont think you are open to learning anything or changing your mind. I predict you will pronounce every counter argument as not measuring up to your logic. Its pointless to get involved.
    But your post is a pretty good example of why we should have a good look at some of the patriarchal roots of traditional marriage, which didn't work in favor of women, and make sure we dont copy it.
    Oh and by the way your representation of heterosexual relationships as one of mistrust and having to make sure the child is yours and forcing someone to stay with you legally sounds really awful. I guess it has been really awful.
    Are you just looking for an excuse to troll around here smegmar? Is your board name a clue?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Aurongroove


    yeah dude, sorry. your logic is non existent.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    furthermore social acceptance is no something any amount of legislation or lobbying can change. It is the collective opinion of a populous on a subject, which must be left to the individuals free will. Should a governmental body act in any way to influence the opinions of its people, positively or negatively, it would be an offence to the free judgement of it's citizens and unbiased nature of any constitution.

    Indeed. Social acceptance of what? Slavery? Black civil rights in America or South Africa? Civil rights of catholics in Northern Ireland?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    I don't think that'kind of logic would arouse a vulcan tbf


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    Just because you used a thesaurus to write that doesn't mean it's a logical argument.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    That's not logical at all, which is a massive achievement on the part of the author considering the "logic" is mostly derived from premises that are just plain wrong, for example that homosexuality is a behaviour that may be encouraged, or that marriage is the reserve of the procreating, or even that there is such a thing as "homosexual marriage".

    Also, I have to say, prefacing an argument with a claim you are an atheist doesn't mask the fact said argument is based on traditional religious values rather than any form of rational thinking.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    But hey procreation is what it is all about! we are all doomed to burn for all eternity if we don't procreate and add to the millions who pay their dues to the holy church plate every sunday.

    When I read "Just to clarify I'm atheist, and some of my best friends have been gay." I immediately thought What are those best friends now? did they vapourise or turn into swans or donkeys? They have been gay but since found jesus? they have been gay but are now normal again?

    Also "I'm not doing any gay bashing here, just some intelligent points I want to put to you all." sounds more like you are laying down some basic Jesus law on our poor misguided heathen heads, As for the rest of the tripe that was served up, I don't read those really long magazine articles that are regularly copy/pasted into posts just to belittle or make people feel inadequate.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭smegmar


    ok, So I think I should clarify some points that have been grossly misinterpreted.

    Firstly I said logically because I don't use person experience or emotional arguments here nor is there any bible verses or religious grounding. Despite what "foggy lad" said, I don't think anyone will burn in hell, I don't think there is a hell, and I don't think any of you are heathens. Nor am I belittling anyone here. I am describing marriage from a scientific anthropological point of view.

    My definition of Marriage of marriage comes from it's original intent and main purpose about 50,000- 5000 years ago. The definition can change to anything you want, but it was until recently a very solid social institution for a singular goal.

    I must apologise for an oversight in my first article, stating that marriage is only for the birth of children. Of course not, there are elements of social bonding, strengthening relationships and general enjoyment. I tried to say that just one of the core reasons for traditional marriage was to make a stable bonded family, creating a situation that would be better >>Should the couple choose to have children<<. I omitted the optional part as the vast majority of traditional married couples through out time have had children.

    Imagine this metaphor A leather whip was originally used to herd cows. Now days I'm sure there are many other great applications for a leather whip, none of which involve a cow. So it's good for many reasons, but that doesn't mean it wasn't originally designed to move cows.

    Please stop ad hominem attacks and general ungrounded insults.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭smegmar


    PS referring to the quote "some of my best friends have been gay"

    I meant that I have since moved away and lost contact, so that I sadly cannot consider them best friends any more. I'm pretty sure they're still gay, maybe they're regulars in this forum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭libnation


    Just how beenficial is this 50,000 year old tradition?

    Saying that a man needs to know that his children are "biologically his own so marriage is important for this reason" assumes that women sleep around with millions of men and that they automatically cannot have sex with other men once they are married.

    On the flip side, if a woman sleeps around with a lot of men who will then deny the child is theirs and refuse to help out - marriage still could not stop this happening! The woman still slept around with these type of men whether she was married or not.

    Religion, for all of its shortcomings, tried to stop the above happening with their rules about no sex before marriage etc! But it brought with it a whole host of other problems and we should learn from the mistakes of religion but still try and apply what it was trying to achieve (if we want to ensure that children grow up in safe environments we now have things like social services, adoption, foster families (which incidentally could be increased ten fold by allowing gay marriage)).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    libnation wrote: »
    Just how beenficial is this 50,000 year old tradition?

    Saying that a man needs to know that his children are "biologically his own so marriage is important for this reason" assumes that women sleep around with millions of men and that they automatically cannot have sex with other men once they are married.

    On the flip side, if a woman sleeps around with a lot of men who will then deny the child is theirs and refuse to help out - marriage still could not stop this happening! The woman still slept around with these type of men whether she was married or not.

    Religion, for all of its shortcomings, tried to stop the above happening with their rules about no sex before marriage etc! But it brought with it a whole host of other problems and we should learn from the mistakes of religion but still try and apply what it was trying to achieve (if we want to ensure that children grow up in safe environments we now have things like social services, adoption, foster families (which incidentally could be increased ten fold by allowing gay marriage)).
    There are thousands of men who have one and more children to one or more wives and girlfriends who contribute absolutely nothing after conception regardless of knowing about the pregnancy and birth but will tell all and sundry about their first born son and their children will be talked about as if trophies, where do these parasites fit into the scheme?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭smegmar


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    where do these parasites fit into the scheme?

    They don't. That's why they're parasites. Any man not willing to take responsibility for a child that he fathered in my mind is criminally negligent.

    I'm not saying traditional marriage is prefect, in fact I want to change it a great deal too, but I don't see how gay marriage is advantageous society as a whole beyond those who want to get married.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    smegmar wrote: »
    They don't. That's why they're parasites. Any man not willing to take responsibility for a child that he fathered in my mind is criminally negligent.

    I'm not saying traditional marriage is prefect, in fact I want to change it a great deal too, but I don't see how gay marriage is advantageous society as a whole beyond those who want to get married.
    Is that because you have been brainwashed into thinking that procreation is our sole purpose in life?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,109 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    It is not a logical argument at all. In the first instance you say that adoption by gay couples is a separate issue and therefore you dismiss gay couples raising children.

    Then you say that raising children is the primary function of heterosexual marriage and is the reason why we provide legal and financial benefits to heterosexual couples in a marriage.

    So in one foul swoop you've created an uneven playing field in your own arguement i.e. heterosexual couples should be allowed to marry because they raise children and homosexual couples shouldn't be allowed marry even if they are raising children

    your reasoning for this is that adoption by gay couples is a separate issue, which is completely false.

    Also you place weight behind heterosexual marriage because they raise their own biological children. While you ignore heterosexual infertility and the enormous number of adopted children in the world.

    In short your argument is a steaming pile of sh*te concocted by a phobe who managed to thumb his/her way through a dictionary while avoiding use of red neck cliché. The argument you present is also needlessly long and wordy, a technique often used by pseudo academics in the hope that people won't be arsed to read the whole thing and skip to the conclusion so as to create the illusion of a logical argument.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Captain Graphite


    smegmar wrote: »

    Imagine this metaphor A leather whip was originally used to herd cows. Now days I'm sure there are many other great applications for a leather whip, none of which involve a cow. So it's good for many reasons, but that doesn't mean it wasn't originally designed to move cows.

    Right so if a straight couple can legally own a leather whip, even if they have no intention of herding cows, then why shouldn't a gay couple (cowless or otherwise) be able to own one too?

    And for any couple, gay or straight, who are not herding cows, is their leather whip any less of a leather whip than that of a cow-herding couple?

    (I really wish you hadn't chosen leather whip btw; makes it sound like the argument is heading into BDSM territory! :pac:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    OP i dont know where you copied that text from but all it is, is just spurious nonsense, no logic in your opening statement either maintaining you are an atheist, yet posting that text with such a religious bent to it that i almost doubled over laughing at the irony.

    if this was an attempt at getting a rise, your post falls well short of the mark! oh, i passed the humor forum on the way in here, perhaps your post might get better traction in there?

    yeah, i doubt it too.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg



    (I really wish you hadn't chosen leather whip btw; makes it sound like the argument is heading into BDSM territory! :pac:)

    you say that like its a bad thing captain? :p:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    smegmar wrote: »
    They don't. That's why they're parasites. Any man not willing to take responsibility for a child that he fathered in my mind is criminally negligent.

    I'm not saying traditional marriage is prefect, in fact I want to change it a great deal too, but I don't see how gay marriage is advantageous society as a whole beyond those who want to get married.

    It's not, really. However, should someone or something that is of no advantage to society be done away with? Using that argument you go down a slippery slope that eventually leads to things like forced euthanasia, etc...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Captain Graphite


    xsiborg wrote: »
    you say that like its a bad thing captain? :p:D

    ;) I'm sure kids read this forum. Don't wanna corrupt their innocent little minds now do we?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    I fcking love it when straight people argue and fight against anything gay related. It doesn't effect you. It never will. Get over it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Mod comment

    Could we argue the point rather than hopping up and down and having a go at the OP personally

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Marriage is a social institution almost as old as first human civilisation. It has existed in many forms, in many different cultures, some group, some polygamous, and very rarely same sex, but the overwhelming majority in all cultures is the "traditional" marriage of one man to one woman.

    Indeed. But surely this demonstrates several things - A) The institution of marriage can and does change throughout history. It is not and has not always been the traditional form of one man and woman (children as young as 12 were allowed to marry in 1937 when Bunreacht na hEireann came in) B) same sex marriage actually did exist in the past (you're even admitting this yourself) and even a form a form of Christian same sex marriage existed See same sex unions in Pre modern Europe
    . We see here that exclusive marriages are a behaviour that ensure a man will spend his time caring for his own biological children and not those of another man. Biologically this is hugely beneficial and time saving for males that previously needed to defend jealously defend any woman which whom they had mated. Also the woman ensures a male that will protect and care for her young. Both parties win in this situation and so the institution of heterosexual marriage was seen as very important and bound into culture and religions of the world.
    Indeed but again this is quite problematic because the idea of the modern nuclear family is actually quite a modern concept
    So now we have two behaviours. Marriage and homosexuality. Both aren't physically compatible as we have noted them, as marriage requires one partner to bare children.
    Indeed but then surely marriage for infertile couples should be banned?
    Tax deductions and incentives for "traditional" married couples were introduced as a way to encourage couples to marry and make a stable base for raising their biological children. However if this is applied to a same-sex couple, discounting the possibility of adoption, the tax deduction or investment is fruitless.
    So infertile couples shouldn't receive any tax benefits
    Furthermore social acceptance is no something any amount of legislation or lobbying can change. It is the collective opinion of a populous on a subject, which must be left to the individuals free will. Should a governmental body act in any way to influence the opinions of its people, positively or negatively, it would be an offence to the free judgement of it's citizens and unbiased nature of any constitution.
    We could say this about lots of things - Death sentence by hanging, Black/White segregation in the US, Apartheid in South Africa, Voting for women, Housing for Catholics in Northern Ireland
    The third and final point Legal recognition of Union is difficult as it brings us back to one of our original points and the exact definition of homosexual. What is it to be homosexual? Nature or Nurture? Is it something that should be something governments or organisations do to encourage? Do we accept it as equal in all aspects or differentiate the clear deviations from the norm? These are all very difficult moral and philosophical questions that each person can come to their own answer which in any case is philosophically right. Therefore only by referendum can any legislation on the union of same-sex couples be accepted as valid and lawful.
    On the one hand you say marriage equality shouldn't be allowed because of tax reasons then you say it should be allowed but only by a referendum - not quite a clear position
    Now I hope you can see that there is logical non religious reasoning against same sex marriage, even if it has not changed your mind maybe you can think and act differently in the debate on this issue.
    I can see that you have used some reasoning. To me your reasoning is actually very similar to some religious reasoning. I don't see any logic in your reasoning.
    My definition of Marriage of marriage comes from it's original intent and main purpose about 50,000- 5000 years ago.
    The problem is that marriage has actually radically changed since then. I think you're really failing to address that the institution of marriage can and does change. All you seem to be doing is saying - It existed like this so it should permanently exist like this.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    smegmar wrote: »
    My definition of Marriage of marriage comes from it's original intent and main purpose about 50,000- 5000 years ago. The definition can change to anything you want, but it was until recently a very solid social institution for a singular goal.

    tbh the thinking behind the OP is about 5000 years out of date too, as is the cherry picking definitions from several different dictionaries, society has moved on a hell of a lot in the last 30 years which pretty much makes this argument and the thinking behind it, redundant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭smegmar


    such a religious bent to it
    Please do give examples, I'm just dying to know where you imagined them.
    Is that because you have been brainwashed into thinking that procreation is our sole purpose in life?
    Maybe not our sole purpose in life, but if you do believe in evolution then you must agree it's pretty high on the list. I might not know what the meaning of life is, but I know I'll make a better world for my children to find out.

    I think it's best we forget the whip metaphor, I now see it might be inappropriate.

    As I mentioned earlier adoption by same-sex couples is a different issue when we're talking about their ability to raise children, and I don't want to drag that debate into this one. It should be clear that only Heterosexual couples have the ability to produce a child, and that is the beneficial factor I can talk about in this argument. It's good for a nation to have child bearing couples, it's good to have those couples stay together and focus energies on raising their children properly. What good is it for anyone outside of a same-sex couple that they be married? What are the positive affects for me, Johnny not-so interested-in-your-happiness O'Public?

    And sure there are married couples that can't conceive, but not allowing them to be married would be discrimination against the "genitalialy" disabled. That is a medical condition; choosing to be in a same-sex marriage is made for ones own personal happiness.

    By all means enjoy your long term committed homosexual relationship, but leave it at that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    smegmar wrote: »
    Please do give examples, I'm just dying to know where you imagined them.


    Maybe not our sole purpose in life, but if you do believe in evolution then you must agree it's pretty high on the list. I might not know what the meaning of life is, but I know I'll make a better world for my children to find out.

    I think it's best we forget the whip metaphor, I now see it might be inappropriate.

    As I mentioned earlier adoption by same-sex couples is a different issue when we're talking about their ability to raise children, and I don't want to drag that debate into this one. It should be clear that only Heterosexual couples have the ability to produce a child, and that is the beneficial factor I can talk about in this argument. It's good for a nation to have child bearing couples, it's good to have those couples stay together and focus energies on raising their children properly. What good is it for anyone outside of a same-sex couple that they be married? What are the positive affects for me, Johnny not-so interested-in-your-happiness O'Public?

    And sure there are married couples that can't conceive, but not allowing them to be married would be discrimination against the "genitalialy" disabled. That is a medical condition; choosing to be in a same-sex marriage is made for ones own personal happiness.

    By all means enjoy your long term committed homosexual relationship, but leave it at that.

    So basically your argument comes down to

    It's good for a nation to have child rearing couples in long term committed relationships where they raise children therefore gay couples should not get tax breaks?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭smegmar


    Let's quickly compare and contrast the differences between "long term committed homosexual relationship" and "same sex marriage"

    Marriage
    long term relationship


    legality:
    long legal proceedings
    yep, totally

    big party:
    wedding day
    you can always party

    produce children:
    nope
    still not

    raise children:
    if someone give you one
    ditto

    tax breaks:
    taxpayer money
    not annoying taxpayers

    love/happiness:
    yep
    yep

    visitation rights:
    yep
    much shorter legal proceedings

    prenuptial agreement:
    binding
    freedom

    who wears the dress:
    another reason to fight
    who cares.

    everyone will love you:
    not the taxpayers
    stay super you rainbow warriors


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