Was Michelle de Bruin our greatest Olympian? Eamonn Coughlan says yes

Motorist · 13-06-2012 10:27PM

mathepac wrote: »

Pity you didn't take time to read the thread. The sample you speak of was taken after the Olympics and personally I don't know of any small horses who drink whiskey.

It's possible that certain posters here have evidence of small horses drinking whiskey and some may even have witnessed events such as this even in the Olympics, but they have no evidence they can produce or point to that Michelle cheated at the Olympic games, thus her medals are still hers and her status as a multiple Olympic champion is unblemished.

The dose required to kill half a population of a test animal such as rats is measured. This is expressed as mg/kg. Expressing as such allows for comparison to other animal species. Toxicity is not always dependent on body mass. The lethal alcohol dose to kill half a given population of rats has been measured at around 7,000mg/kg. A small horse would weigh about 200kg. About 10% of alcohol is excreted in urine.

Besides that, I believe that the alcohol content was described as sufficient to kill a human. That amount is still calculated from rat models. Basically Smyth poured whiskey from under her baggy sweater into the urine sample in attempt to conceal banned substances.

FINA, swimming's international federation, had repeatedly expressed concern that Smith was unavailable for out-of-competition drug tests from 1995 onward.

She refused to appear on the Late Late show in 2007 if any reference was made to her swimming career. RTE would not agree to this unreasonable demand. Wouldn't an innocent person do all they could to defend themselves?

sock puppet · 13-06-2012 10:37PM

squod wrote: »

An interesting one. The sport probably matured in 96. Every record since could have been set by ''one offs'' natural athletes or outstanding performers (rather than well trained athletes).

It could be a long time before some of the times set in 2009 are beaten but swimmers now are still better than in the 90s.

mathepac · 14-06-2012 01:11AM

Motorist wrote: »

The dose required to kill half a population of a test animal such as rats is measured. This is expressed as mg/kg. Expressing as such allows for comparison to other animal species. Toxicity is not always dependent on body mass. The lethal alcohol dose to kill half a given population of rats has been measured at around 7,000mg/kg. A small horse would weigh about 200kg. About 10% of alcohol is excreted in urine. ...

Which is interesting (wildly inaccurate and mildly interesting) but so what? What has it got to do with Michelle de Bruin's Olympic achievements?

Just FYI, humans excrete at most, 5% of consumed beverage alcohol unmetabolised through sweat, breath and urine. That's OT I know but just FYI.

Motorist wrote: »

... Besides that, I believe that the alcohol content was described as sufficient to kill a human. ...

Your beliefs are not evidence of anything, much and all as you might wish it to be different.

Motorist wrote: »

... Basically Smyth poured whiskey from under her baggy sweater into the urine sample in attempt to conceal Androstenedione. ...

I see. You witnessed this at first hand in the jacks with Michelle and the testers? This is real evidence or is it just more idle speculation?

Motorist wrote: »

... FINA, swimming's international federation, had repeatedly expressed concern that Smith was unavailable for out-of-competition drug tests from 1995 onward. ...

So why didn't they do something about it then or were their expressed concerns the FINA equivalent of phoning the Joe-show? I know you can't answer that but I'd be inclined to benchmark an organisation's concerns about a situation by their actions rather than by the level of their whinging.

Motorist wrote: »

... She refused to appear on the Late Late show in 2007 if any reference was made to her swimming career. RTE would not agree to this unreasonable demand. Wouldn't an innocent person do all they could to defend themselves?

A private individual has the right to accept or decline media invitations. If the two parties can't agree an agenda then the show is a non-starter. I don't know if she made any demands of RTE or if these demands were unreasonable, but evidently you do.

Why would any person more especially an innocent one choose to subject themselves to the sort of RedTop tits-and-arses "journalism" that Turbidity and his colleagues slap together? She had no video to sell, no film to promote, no newspaper exclusive about "my return from the horrors of chicken kiev addiction while giving birth 19 times in a squat" plus her academic publications and reference works were clearly several notches above the programme and its viewers scope intellectually, so what had she to gain?

Indo404 · 14-06-2012 08:51AM

Originally Posted by Motorist
... FINA, swimming's international federation, had repeatedly expressed concern that Smith was unavailable for out-of-competition drug tests from 1995 onward. ...
Not true. FINA even wrote her a letter stating that FINA had no problem with her availability for out-of-competition tests. The letter was produced at the CAS hearing in 1998.

Indo404 · 14-06-2012 09:01AM

Red21 wrote: »

Don't know how Jimmy Magee gets away with this nonsence, she took 20 sec's off her 400m time an event that only takes 4 mins.
If paul hession had the same improvement he'd be in with a chance to win the 200m.

The 400 meter time in 1995 was a training swim for her Dutch club. You should compare like with like. She did not "improve" 20 seconds. Yes there is a difference of 20 seconds in those two times. Look at her time in the 400 IM in 1995 (4:42) and her time in 1996 (4:39). Same distance Those are two times you can compare. She was rested and tapered for both those meets.

PS "She came out of nowhere" Where did MS finish two years before the Olympics in 1996 at the wold championships in Rome?

Indo404 · 14-06-2012 09:07AM

She refused to appear on the Late Late show in 2007 if any reference was made to her swimming career. RTE would not agree to this unreasonable demand. Wouldn't an innocent person do all they could to defend themselves?[/QUOTE]

No. Michelle Smith had no problem going on the Late Late show. It was Larry Masterson, the producer of the LL, who made that call.

Motorist · 14-06-2012 10:01AM

mathepac wrote: »

Which is interesting (wildly inaccurate and mildly interesting) but so what? What has it got to do with Michelle de Bruin's Olympic achievements?

Another poster compared the alcohol concentration of her urine sample to being a lethal dose to kill a large animal such as a horse. In your ignorance, you scorned at this questioning if anyone had ever seen a horse drinking. Of course, there is laboratory basis for calculating lethal doses of all drugs for human or veterinary use. You even foolishly questioned if anyone had ever witnessed a horse drinking.

Her concentrated sample came about from her pouring whiskey directly into the sample jar in a desperate attempt to conceal the banned substances she had been taking.

Motorist · 14-06-2012 10:03AM

Indo404 wrote: »

No. Michelle Smith had no problem going on the Late Late show. It was Larry Masterson, the producer of the LL, who made that call.

She refused to go on the Late Late show if asked about her swimming career.
RTE would not agree to demands and pre-conditions, so she chose not to go on.

Maybe she's in denial now about what she did or maybe she thought it would be bad her business as a barrister if she once again had to defend her days as being a cheat.

Indo404 · 14-06-2012 10:06AM

Motorist wrote: »

Another poster compared the alcohol concentration of her urine sample to being a lethal dose to kill a large animal such as a horse. In your ignorance, you scorned at this questioning if anyone had ever seen a horse drinking. Of course, there is laboratory basis for calculating lethal doses of all drugs for human or veterinary use.

Her concentrated sample came about from her pouring whiskey directly into the sample jar in a foolish attempt to conceal the banned substances she had been taking.

One problem. Androstenedione was not a banned substance at the time. FINA only put it on the list in 1999.

Indo404 · 14-06-2012 10:12AM

Motorist wrote: »

She refused to go on the Late Late show if asked about her swimming career.
RTE would not agree to demands and pre-conditions, so she chose not to go on.

Maybe she's in denial now about what she did or maybe she thought it would be bad her business as a barrister if she once again had to defend her days as being a cheat.

No Ask Larry Masterson. MS was willing to go on the LL. She explained her position at the time after the Celebrities Go Wild in an interview in Ireland on Sunday.

Motorist · 14-06-2012 10:18AM

Indo404 wrote: »

One problem. Androstenedione was not a banned substance at the time. FINA only put it on the list in 1999.

Smyth most likely did not know what know what testosterone pre-cursor she was taking from one month to the next - she obviously wasn't getting them on prescription or from a pharmacy. Also what effect did the alcohol have on masking other substances of interest in her urine sample? In any case, contaminating a urine sample with alcohol was banned at the time.

FINA's legal advice was to go for a charge they believed could not fail to avoid a technical legal challenge getting in the way. I wonder what other damning evidence they had though. Al Capone was eventually sent to prison for tax evasion.

Motorist · 14-06-2012 10:26AM

Indo404 wrote: »

No Ask Larry Masterson. MS was willing to go on the LL. She explained her position at the time after the Celebrities Go Wild in an interview in Ireland on Sunday.

Of course it's much more plausible that the cheat in denial who has never apologised did not want her embarrassing swimming career mentioned. Why would the Late Late show just refuse to let her go on, while letting all the other contestants take part ?
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/celebrity-news-gossip/late-late-is-snubbed-by-de-bruin-after-mention-of-a-cloud-over-career-1200562.html

"As word reached Late Late producers that the former athlete was part of a group which was to be unveiled on the show before they set off into the wilds of Connemara, Co Galway, De Bruin was told that some reference would have to be made to the cloud hanging over her controversial triple gold victory at the 1996 Olympic Games.

When De Bruin refused, she was left with no alternative other than to stay backstage and sit on her own on a bus outside the studios, while her reality show counterparts took part in the show"

Indo404 · 14-06-2012 10:27AM

Motorist wrote: »

Smyth most likely did not know what know what testosterone pre-cursor she was taking from one month to the next - she obviously wasn't getting them on prescription or from a pharmacy. Also what effect did the alcohol have on masking other substances of interest in her urine sample? In any case, contaminating a urine sample with alcohol was banned at the time.

Whisky does not mask any substance. It is not a masking agent.

Indo404 · 14-06-2012 10:29AM

Motorist wrote: »

Of course it's much more plausible that the cheat in denial who has never apologised did not want her embarrassing swimming career mentioned. Why would the Late Late show just refuse to let her go on, while letting all the other contestants take part ?
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/celebrity-news-gossip/late-late-is-snubbed-by-de-bruin-after-mention-of-a-cloud-over-career-1200562.html

"As word reached Late Late producers that the former athlete was part of a group which was to be unveiled on the show before they set off into the wilds of Connemara, Co Galway, De Bruin was told that some reference would have to be made to the cloud hanging over her controversial triple gold victory at the 1996 Olympic Games.

When De Bruin refused, she was left with no alternative other than to stay backstage and sit on her own on a bus outside the studios, while her reality show counterparts took part in the show"

I was a witness to the conversation between LM and MS. LM said that Pat Kenny was going to ask her about the ban. MS said she was there to raise money for charity and that she was going to say that to PK if he asked her about her ban. LM decided that that would look bad on PK and that's why RTE decided not to let MS on the LL.

Indo404 · 14-06-2012 10:33AM

Indo404 wrote: »

I was a witness to the conversation between LM and MS. LM said that Pat Kenny was going to ask her about the ban. MS said she was there to raise money for charity and that she was going to say that to PK if he asked her about her ban. LM decided that that would look bad on PK and that's why RTE decided not to let MS on the LL.

In Ireland on Sunday: "Michelle recalls events rather differently. ‘I was told I would be brought on and interviewed by myself and then they would bring on the other seven. I felt that wasn’t the right thing to do because if we were going as a group of eight, we should be brought on as a group of eight and it wouldn’t be the right thing for them to start off a week if I was seen in some way to be different than the others.
‘We were all told the interview would be along the lines of why did you agree to do Celebrities Go Wild, are you looking forward to it, what do you expect of it, and so on. Except, when they came to me, the Late Late producer, Larry Masterson said, “well, there’s an elephant in the room we can’t ignore, so we’ll ask about what happened 10 years ago”, and I said, well, I’m not doing that.
‘I was perfectly happy to go on and I wanted to go on but I didn’t see any reason why I should be treated any differently to the others.
‘He wasn’t happy with that and I eventually said to him, look if you’re not happy, maybe you should go on with seven and not me, if that’s the bottom line. He said, “well, I need to speak to some people in RTÉ and I’ll come back to you later”, but he didn’t. I got a call next morning to say the Late Late had decided just seven people would go on and they wouldn’t have me – so, you see, I didn’t make the decision.
‘After the others were interviewed, they all thought Pat Kenny had been mean to me. That was the end of it, it just wasn’t mentioned anymore.’

Shelflife · 14-06-2012 10:42AM

Motorist wrote: »

Smyth most likely did not know what know what testosterone pre-cursor she was taking from one month to the next - she obviously wasn't getting them on prescription or from a pharmacy. Also what effect did the alcohol have on masking other substances of interest in her urine sample? In any case, contaminating a urine sample with alcohol was banned at the time.

FINA's legal advice was to go for a charge they believed could not fail to avoid a technical legal challenge getting in the way. I wonder what other damning evidence they had though. Al Capone was eventually sent to prison for tax evasion.

These type of arguements annoy me, on the one hand she had a chemist that was better than the testers and then on the other hand she prob hadnt a clue what she was taking,

Then we have the claim that she poured whiskey directly into the sample but there is no evidence to prove this as the testers didnt do their job properly.

She either had tested positive for a banned substance prior to this or she hadnt its pretty straightforward, if they had proper evidence of a banned substance in her system they would have banned her. They didnt so i presume that she didnt.

And then we have the wonderful throwaway remark

I wonder what other damning evidence they had though. Al Capone was eventually sent to prison for tax evasion.

theres nothing to suggest that there is any damning evidence out there yet we will throw in a nasty suggestion based on nothing.

Spokes of Glory · 14-06-2012 11:20AM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Michael Phelps will be older in London than Mrs de Bruin was in Atlanta.

The age factor is considered more significant in females because they lay down more body fat coming into adulthood.......hence the number of 17 and 18 year olds prevalent in the top ranks.

On a side-point, I was dating a former swimming colleague of DeBruins around the time of the 96 games, and she was adamant straight away that something was up, her point being that deBruin was by no means an outstanding talent when they were on the same teams.

Spokes

Indo404 · 14-06-2012 11:31AM

Spokes of Glory wrote: »

The age factor is considered more significant in females because they lay down more body fat coming into adulthood.......hence the number of 17 and 18 year olds prevalent in the top ranks.

Spokes

Dara Grace Torres (born April 15, 1967) is an American international swimmer and at age 41, is the oldest swimmer ever to earn a place on the U.S. Olympic team.

Indo404 · 14-06-2012 11:39AM

Spokes of Glory wrote: »

The age factor is considered more significant in females because they lay down more body fat coming into adulthood.......hence the number of 17 and 18 year olds prevalent in the top ranks.

On a side-point, I was dating a former swimming colleague of DeBruins around the time of the 96 games, and she was adamant straight away that something was up, her point being that deBruin was by no means an outstanding talent when they were on the same teams.

Spokes

"The average age of the U.S. Summer Olympic team rose to 27 in 1996 from 24 in 1976 and has remained steady. This year's team — even with a series of upsets during the Olympic trials that kept several older athletes from getting to Beijing — has an average age of 26.8." http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/beijing/2008-07-24-older-athletes_N.htm

squod · 14-06-2012 11:43AM

Indo404 wrote: »

"The average age of the U.S. Summer Olympic team rose to 27 in 1996 from 24 in 1976 and has remained steady. This year's team — even with a series of upsets during the Olympic trials that kept several older athletes from getting to Beijing — has an average age of 26.8." http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/beijing/2008-07-24-older-athletes_N.htm

U.S. Olympic team. *Cough*

Over the past 25 years, performance-enhancing drugs have been the dominant theme, although there have been other sorts of illegal activity in some cases

Not my words..........

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1176993-ranking-the-15-most-disgraced-athletes-in-last-25-years-of-us-olympic-history

squod · 14-06-2012 11:44AM

Indo404 wrote: »

Dara Grace Torres (born April 15, 1967) is an American international swimmer and at age 41, is the oldest swimmer ever to earn a place on the U.S. Olympic team.

Is she a one-off?

Indo404 · 14-06-2012 11:53AM

squod wrote: »

Is she a one-off?

"The average age of the top eight women in the 100-meter freestyle at the Olympic Trials is 26.8." http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/1574.html

Motorist · 14-06-2012 01:12PM

Shelflife wrote: »

theres nothing to suggest that there is any damning evidence out there yet we will throw in a nasty suggestion based on nothing.

Glad you think that putting whiskey into her urine sample in order to cheat was nasty, but that suggestion is not based on "nothing". It is fact and resulted in her being banned for 4 years, a ban which was upheld on appeal.

Shelflife · 14-06-2012 01:56PM

And then we have the wonderful throwaway remark

I wonder what other damning evidence they had though. Al Capone was eventually sent to prison for tax evasion.

theres nothing to suggest that there is any damning evidence out there yet we will throw in a nasty suggestion based on nothing.

The nasty suggestion was highlighted, please dont quote me out of context

mathepac · 14-06-2012 02:16PM

Motorist wrote: »

Another poster compared the alcohol concentration of her urine sample to being a lethal dose to kill a large animal such as a horse. In your ignorance, you scorned at this questioning if anyone had ever seen a horse drinking. Of course, there is laboratory basis for calculating lethal doses of all drugs for human or veterinary use. You even foolishly questioned if anyone had ever witnessed a horse drinking...

The relevance of the remarks about whiskey and horses was my target. It's a pity that escaped you. You really must stop digging as the size of the excavation increases.

Motorist wrote: »

... Her concentrated sample came about from her pouring whiskey directly into the sample jar in a desperate attempt to conceal the banned substances she had been taking.

I dunno, do you write for RTE, Mills & Boone or the Star; your research seems a trifle flawed, your creativity good (given you didn't witness the event) but the hyperbole is OTT, IMHO.

How does any of your post relate to Michelle's Olympic achievements in 1996?

M cebee · 14-06-2012 02:20PM

eamonn seem's to be a right 'tool' if his late late show appearance is typical

-even worse an establishment 'tool'

he should know better as an athlete himself than to spout this rubbish

mathepac · 15-06-2012 07:13PM

"Gosh Brian, it’s very quiet in here now. Where has everyone gone?"

"Give it a rest Stewie, you know you beat us fair and square. We retreated rapidly with our tails between our legs."

"By ‘us’ Brian do you mean the detractors, the ‘antis’ with the imagined evidence, the bayers-for-blood, the book-burners, the down-right prejudiced, those who lack insight and understanding and are plain bad drivers?"

"For ***** sake Stewie leave my driving out of this. I know it’s only a Prius, but It’s a fine car and I manage it quite well, thank you. So far the only one to crash it is you."

"By ‘quite well’ do you mean better than the case you made here for Michelle’s condemnation? I gotta say that was the pits Brian, the absolute pits."

"Yeah we did a bad job there Stewie, we didn’t manage to get any books destroyed or witches burned at the steak."

"Surely you mean ‘stake’ Brian, not ‘steak’?"

"That’s what I said ‘steak’, what’s your problem?"

"Maybe that’s been the problem all along Brian, some people not knowing the difference between a piece of wood and a slice off a cow’s butt?"

"I guess you got us there Stewie. Let’s head back to Quohog."

"I’m looking forward to seeing the fatman again, it’s been a while and I’m due another shot at killing his bitch’s ass dead, Brian."

"Yeah, let’s go Stewie." [echoes - Stewie, Stewie, Stewie, who always gets the last word.]

(With apologies to Family Guy fans)

Motorist · 15-06-2012 11:06PM

What this thread, as every other thread on any forum, in addition to any newspaper article, encyclopedia entry, etc signifies is that the overwhelming majority of right-thinking, rational and sane people know that Michelle Smyth was a cheat and a fraud who was an embarrassment to her country. She is best not talked about except for when her loyal generals, the odd balls and Herr Goebbels send out a communication from the bunker in a futile attempt at rewriting history.

Shelflife · 15-06-2012 11:40PM

Dont be so hard on yourself Motorist, your attempts to rewrite history may well work in the future.

History books and Olympic records show that she won 3 golds and a bronze. She was tested and passed those drug tests.

The only one trying to rewrite history is yourself !

Pherekydes · 15-06-2012 11:49PM

Motorist wrote: »

She is best not talked about except for when her loyal generals, the odd balls and Herr Goebbels send out a communication from from the bunker in a futile attempt at rewriting history.

I find this personally insulting and quite a bit creepy.

According to the OCI, Michelle de Bruin is in good standing with the organisation, so her olympic results stand, despite clamouring to have her ban backdated.

She passed tests at the Atlanta Games, so that is the end of that. What happened in 1997 or 1998 has no relevance to what happened in '96.

Was Michelle de Bruin our greatest Olympian? Eamonn Coughlan says yes

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