What if Assad is telling the truth?

plasmaguy · 10-06-2012 12:33AM

cyberhog wrote: »

Channel 4 journalist Alex Thomson claims the FSA rebels deliberately put him in harms way in the hope he would be killed so they could blame Assad.

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/hostile-territory/1863

Eye witness report of Hama Massacre.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9316829/Syria-eyewitness-charred-bodies-proof-of-Hama-massacre.html

Very similar indeed to what happened in Bosnia, Al-Kubeir was a small Sunni enclave surrounded by Alwite villages. It looks like Assad and Assad alone is trying to foment a sectarian bloodbath across the country.

By the way the FSA had no presence in the area and the villagers had not shown any support for the revolution. You could understand if the Assad militia had attacked because the villagers were anti Assad, but there is little evidence the villagers were pro or anti Assad just normal people going about their business.

cyberhog · 10-06-2012 03:02AM

A reporter for a high-profile national German newspaper interviewed members of the Syrian opposition and they say Sunni rebels committed the Houla massacre.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/neue-erkenntnisse-zu-getoeteten-von-hula-abermals-massaker-in-syrien-11776496.html

Here is a partial translation courtesy of www.moonofalabama.org

Syrian opposition members who are from that region were during the last days able to reconstruct the most likely sequence of events based on accounts from authentic witnesses. Their result contradicts the pretenses from the rebels who had accused regime allied Shabiha they alleged were acting under the protection of the Syrian army. As opposition members who reject the use of lethal force were recently killed or at least threatened, the opposition members [talking to me] asked that their names be withheld.

The massacre of Houla happened after Friday prayers. The fighting started when Sunni rebels attacked three Syrian army checkpoints around Houla. These checkpoints were set up to protect the Alawi villages around the predominantly Sunni Houla from assaults.

One attacked checkpoint called up units from the Syrian army, which has barracks some 1500 meters away, for help and was immediately reinforced. Dozens of soldiers and rebels were killed during the fighting around Houla which is said to have lasted about 90 minutes. During these fights the three villages were closed off from the outside world.

According to the witness accounts the massacre happened during this timeframe. Killed were nearly exclusively families from the Alawi and Shia minorities in Houla which has a more than 90% Sunni population. Several dozen members of one extended family, which had in recent years converted from Sunni to Shia believe, were slaughtered. Also killed were members of the Alawi family Shomaliya and the family of a Sunni member of parliament who was [by the rebels] considered a government collaborator. Members of the Syrian government confirmed this version but pointed out that the government committed to not publicly speak of Sunnis and Alawis. President al-Assad is Alawi while the opposition is overwhelmingly from the Sunni population majority.

Jaafa · 10-06-2012 11:41AM

And this is why people shouldn't try to draw conclusions, definitive scenarios and talk as if they know whats going on about something that happened thousands of miles away in the middle of a war zone. Even the above article may not hold all the facts, but it certainly seems a lot more plausible to me.

Eggy Baby! · 10-06-2012 12:12PM

This suggests either one of two things-
-That rebs were involved in the Houla massacre to some degree.
or;
-That the Syrian opposition is folding in on itself and they are resorting to using lies and slander on their own comrades in a cynical attempt to gain power for themselves.

Or both.

cyberhog · 10-06-2012 04:00PM

Jaafa wrote: »

And this is why people shouldn't try to draw conclusions, definitive scenarios and talk as if they know whats going on about something that happened thousands of miles away in the middle of a war zone. Even the above article may not hold all the facts, but it certainly seems a lot more plausible to me.

I agree, but don't expect the regime change crowd to pay any attention to your advice. Clinton, Hague and their ilk couldn't care less if rebels massacre women and children. All the cowardly warmongers care about is taking advantage of the emotional tidal wave of support for regime change before it blows up in their faces.

plasmaguy · 10-06-2012 06:04PM

cyberhog wrote: »

I agree, but don't expect the regime change crowd to pay any attention to your advice. Clinton, Hague and their ilk couldn't care less if rebels massacre women and children. All the cowardly warmongers care about is taking advantage of the emotional tidal wave of support for regime change before it blows up in their faces.

If you don't think the regime needs to be changed in Syria, then there is somethine very wrong with you.

I am all for regime change by democratic means but Assad has banned anyone from standing against him in the last two presidential elections and when people protested in the street he shot and murdered them in much the same way the Brits shot at and murdered people in Derry in 1972. There is no possibility of a democratic regime change in Syria and Assad must be forced out just as there needed to be regime change in Nazi Germany.

The blame for this conflict lies 100% with Assad. You still have not produced any credible evidence that the massacre in Houla was carried out by anyone other than Assad thugs.

Citing RT, SANA, Voltairenet, annonymous sources who spoke to German newspapers and every non-credible source bar the back of a cornflakes box prooves little. I am in favour of a full investigation of the Houla massacre involving the ICC as well but so far Assad has declined such an investigation.

I am still waiting for people like you to condemn Assad and the hundreds other massacres he carried out.

Leaving a mass murdering thug in power any longer is simply not an option. The anti western brigade who are opposed to outside intervention, opposed outside intervention in Libya as you clearly did, never admit when they are wrong.

When they admit they were wrong on Libya and are wrong on Syria then I will listen to them.

But like I said if they continue to peddle support for Assad however well camoflauged or else try to take advantage of a tragedy in Syria to further their anti western agenda then they will be heading for ignore.

plasmaguy · 10-06-2012 06:09PM

cyberhog wrote: »

I agree, but don't expect the regime change crowd to pay any attention to your advice. Clinton, Hague and their ilk couldn't care less if rebels massacre women and children. All the cowardly warmongers care about is taking advantage of the emotional tidal wave of support for regime change before it blows up in their faces.

One question, were you opposed to international intervention in Libya and do you think that intervention was morally wrong, given that it stopped a tyrant murdering his people?

lagente · 11-06-2012 02:34AM

Suff, great posts, Please keep them coming. What is your opinion on the relevancy of ....

The proximity to Iraqs ongoing catastrophe (particularly since the invasion)....
If Assad was to have left power in the previous few years, that could have caused a power vacuum
(and perhaps a religious divided war
like Iraq, considering the location of Syrias huge border with Iraq,..and so the Alawites may have been and
certainly at the moment seem to be caught between a rock and a hard place, in terms of power/ transition to democracy.)
Is there any reconciliation of this (whats seems to be) fact, and how in that it may bring about an understanding to this divided region? Is the radical extremism to both sides mostly... symptomatic of this divide?
I think that the region is one of the fighting rings for the two religions Shia and Sunni, eg Iran, Saudi A, Qatar, Shia elements of Iraq and Sunni elements of Iraq, to fight out a battle for power, and that being the case a direct road to democracy without understanding and planning is not going to quell the violence much/ at all.
What could be the proper steps for the parties to take?

cyberhog · 11-06-2012 02:35AM

plasmaguy wrote: »

If you don't think the regime needs to be changed in Syria, then there is somethine very wrong with you.

It's fine to disagree with me, but don't go throwing around random insults. In other words "play the ball, not the player".

plasmaguy wrote: »

The blame for this conflict lies 100% with Assad.

[Kofi Annan] called on all sides of the conflict to end the bloodshed, saying “this message of peace is not only for the government, but for everyone with a gun.”

plasmaguy wrote: »

You still have not produced any credible evidence that the massacre in Houla was carried out by anyone other than Assad thugs.

No one has proof of the involvement of pro-government or opposition forces, so anyone that claims they know who the perpetrators are is full of hot air.

plasmaguy wrote: »

Citing RT, SANA, Voltairenet, annonymous sources who spoke to German newspapers and every non-credible source bar the back of a cornflakes box prooves little.

It also holds true that citing the SNC, SOHR, and anonymous sources that speak to Western newspapers proves little.

plasmaguy wrote: »

I am still waiting for people like you to condemn Assad and the hundreds other massacres he carried out.

Well I'm still waiting for people like you to condemn the rebels and the hundreds of other massacres they have committed. :rolleyes:

plasmaguy wrote: »

Leaving a mass murdering thug in power any longer is simply not an option.

You seem to be forgetting a rather important detail brother. Russia and China are staunchly opposed to forced regime change.

plasmaguy · 11-06-2012 06:00PM

At this stage the Syrian conflict is in a state of stalemate with no side able to finish off the other. This means a long drawn out bloody civil war where everyone in Syria suffers apart from Assad.

If Assad had won a democratic election fair enough, he'd have some legitimacy.

But he has only achieved quasi legitimacy at the barrel of a gun.

The Russians and Chinese, and I know you admire them and think the world of them, have picked the wrong side in this conflict and have guaranteed a long drawn out bloody conflict which is increasingly becoming sectarian in nature.

I'm glad the Libyan people were able to avoid such a conflict, although its more likely Gadaffi would have flattened Misrata and Benghazi.

But at least the Libyans are having a democratic poll this month to draw up a new constitution and that's something we should all be glad of apart from some people who opposed western intervention in Libya.

For the record I am in favour of outside intervention in Syria similar similar to that in Libya with no large military presence on the ground.

As for Assad I don't think many people would care if he was killed by NATO or not. Like Gadaffi, live by the sword, die by the sword. All these dictators are fine so long as they are doing the killing but when they are given a taste of their own medicine they cry like children about regime change and their human rights...as do their apologists.

sweeney1971 · 11-06-2012 06:24PM

20 years in the Lebanon. Now you cannot get any more War torn than that.

Jaafa · 11-06-2012 07:23PM

I'm glad the Libyan people were able to avoid such a conflict,

You seem to be in fantasy world in regards to Libya,the conflict there never ended. Perhaps you just stopped looking at the news from there since the war ended. Then again so did most of the media.

The various militias that sprung up to oppose Qaddafi have each taken control of their own territory, and continue to fight each other for more.

Over 500 dead since the Gaddafi was toppled and continuing to rise.

7000 former loyalists are still in jail and rountinely tortured this caused MSF to pull out of the country.

The east of the country continues to attempt cessation from the west. The west in turn threatens war.

Arm's flooding into neighboring countries from Libya has fueled conflicts there including being a major cause of the coup in Mali. And of course we are all aware of the Libyan fighters and arms in Syria too.

Just last week Tripoli's international airport was overrun by a militia forcing the NTC to send in the army to clear them out.

And all this for what? Certainly not democracy and freedom when it's clear it's the Islamist that are rising to power.

A short list of various violent incidents since the end of Qaddafi.

And this is nothing compared to what will happen in Syria if Assad is toppled by military means, the country will fall into a true civil war dwarfing that of Libya and Lebanon will surely be dragged into it too. Assad has to go, but the rebel way is not the right way.

plasmaguy · 11-06-2012 07:53PM

Jaafa wrote: »

You seem to be in fantasy world in regards to Libya,the conflict there never ended. Perhaps you just stopped looking at the news from there since the war ended. Then again so did most of the media.

The various militias that sprung up to oppose Qaddafi have each taken control of their own territory, and continue to fight each other for more.

Over 500 dead since the Gaddafi was toppled and continuing to rise.

7000 former loyalists are still in jail and rountinely tortured this caused MSF to pull out of the country.

The east of the country continues to attempt cessation from the west. The west in turn threatens war.

Arm's flooding into neighboring countries from Libya has fueled conflicts there including being a major cause of the coup in Mali. And of course we are all aware of the Libyan fighters and arms in Syria too.

Just last week Tripoli's international airport was overrun by a militia forcing the NTC to send in the army to clear them out.

And all this for what? Certainly not democracy and freedom when it's clear it's the Islamist that are rising to power.

A short list of various violent incidents since the end of Qaddafi.

And this is nothing compared to what will happen in Syria if Assad is toppled by military means, the country will fall into a true civil war dwarfing that of Libya and Lebanon will surely be dragged into it too. Assad has to go, but the rebel way is not the right way.

And there's over 8000 dead in Syria in the same period or 15 times the number of Libya, but the main difference in Syria is they are 90% innocent men, women and children.

Loyalist thugs don't you mean, who spent decades torturing the Libyan people, there are very few people who have sympathy for them apart from the usual anti-western types.

There's a lot more than 7000 jailed in Syria by the way and are also subjected to the most hidious forms of torture all for asking for democracy, but your sympathy is probably not with them but with the BILLIONAIRE Assad family, as it seems all anti western posters on places like this are. They tie themselves up in such knots that they take the side of billionaires like Assad against the impoverished two dollar a day folks they torture and massacre and then call themselves socialist when they don't even understand the meaning of the word.

You're going ignore anyways, couldn't be arsed discussing any more with you as I know your ilk.

I am putting jaafa, cyberhog and a couple others on ignore since they refuse to recognise the right of the Syrian people to be free of Assad and the free speech of the Syrian people and I'm not going to waste my time with hypocrits like that who use forums like this to condemn the legitimate wishes of the Syrian people to be free of tyrants like Assad who tortures people for expressing their opinion.

Jaafa · 11-06-2012 08:05PM

Plasmaguy:

I am putting jaafa, cyberhog and a couple others on ignore since they refuse to recognise the right of the Syrian people to be free of Assad

Me:

Assad has to go

Oh and before anyone starts with the usual baseless attacks, no I don't support Assad staying in power

Enough of this nonsense, your clearly not interested in any sort of a debate.

Eggy Baby! · 11-06-2012 09:02PM

I am putting jaafa, cyberhog and a couple others on ignore since they refuse to recognise the right of the Syrian people to be free of Assad and the free speech of the Syrian people and I'm not going to waste my time with hypocrits like that who use forums like this to condemn the legitimate wishes of the Syrian people to be free of tyrants like Assad who tortures people for expressing their opinion.

So who are you going to argue with? Yourself? Or are you just going to use this thread as a newsdump or a personal reflection?

"We must respect the free speech of the Syrian people."
*puts everyone who argues on an ignore list* :rolleyes:

"The Syrians must be free from Assad who doesn't allow people to express their opinion."
*calls everyone who disagrees in the slightest a hypocrite* :rolleyes:

"They refuse to recognise the rights of the Syrian people."
*says this having ignored 9 pages of Assad-bashing* :rolleyes:

I'm not going to waste my time with hypocrites

My thoughts exactly!!

Thread's dead baby, thread's dead.

Run_to_da_hills · 11-06-2012 10:12PM

I came across this piece of sensationalist western propaganda today. .

The usual hyped up BS story along with the usual Holywood "behind enemy line back drop". The monocolour henna tattoos on the guys arms are so fake they will more then likely wash off after a good shower, that's if the guy ever takes one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2157518/Pictured-Syrias-steroid-mad-Ghost-killers-Assad-power-swooping-villages-massacre-women-children.html

Eggy Baby! · 12-06-2012 12:13AM

Funnily enough, I saw that today in the Sun and I thought the exact same thing...!

(Although the Sun and Daily Mail are hardly reputable papers!)

Run_to_da_hills · 12-06-2012 12:23AM

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Funnily enough, I saw that today in the Sun and I thought the exact same thing...!

(Although the Sun and Daily Mail are hardly reputable papers!)

The fact that these rags have a such high readership and that the majority of people that actually believe in their content is worrying.

cyberhog · 12-06-2012 01:03AM

plasmaguy wrote: »

The Russians and Chinese, and I know you admire them and think the world of them, have picked the wrong side in this conflict and have guaranteed a long drawn out bloody conflict which is increasingly becoming sectarian in nature.

It's not a question of admiring Russia so much as recognising that they are better placed than the West to lead negotiations to end the crisis.

Moscow may not be motivated by international altruism, but it is right to criticize the West for not having any political plan for Syria. In several draft Security Council resolutions, rejected by Russia and China, the West has demanded that the Syrian security forces confine themselves to barracks. Lavrov has posed the question: Who would take their place to prevent even worse sectarian violence as victims of the regime seek revenge against their many neighbors who supported Assad? Western diplomats do not have an answer.

Such a lack of attention to detail from the West is hindering a diplomatic solution to Syria’s conflict. Western diplomats and officials have told Kofi Annan, the former U.N. secretary general, to negotiate a cease-fire with Syria and to establish a dialogue aimed at “political transition,” but they have given him few hints as to exactly what such a transition should look like. There are also currently no inducements for the regime to change its behavior.

An attempt by Russia to negotiate a political transition in Syria should be welcomed. Moscow has made it clear that its future relations are not tied to the power status quo in Damascus.

A phased, compromise transition between the government and opposition groups is probably the only way to avoid worse chaos in the future. This does not mean offering a carte blanche to a brutal regime that has engaged in a litany of appalling war crimes. But neither the Syrian people nor the West can afford to let the current trend continue: There is too much at stake in terms of lives and strategic interest. It is time for some diplomacy based on realism rather than wishful thinking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/opinion/let-russia-show-the-way-on-syria.html?_r=1

Lavrov even said that Moscow would be "glad" to support Assad's departure if Syrians themselves agreed on it.

cyberhog · 12-06-2012 01:56AM

More eyewitness accounts point to the involvement of rebels in the Houla massacre.

The FAZ report echoes eyewitness accounts collected from refugees from the Houla region by members of the Monastery of St. James in Qara, Syria. According to monastery sources cited by the Dutch Middle East expert Martin Janssen, armed rebels murdered “entire Alawi families” in the village of Taldo in the Houla region.

Already at the beginning of April, Mother Agnès-Mariam de la Croix of the St. James Monastery warned of rebel atrocities’ being repackaged in both Arab and Western media accounts as regime atrocities. She cited the case of a massacre in the Khalidiya neighborhood in Homs. According to an account published in French on the monastery’s website, rebels gathered Christian and Alawi hostages in a building in Khalidiya and blew up the building with dynamite. They then attributed the crime to the regular Syrian army. “Even though this act has been attributed to regular army forces . . . , the evidence and testimony are irrefutable: It was an operation undertaken by armed groups affiliated with the opposition,” Mother Agnès-Mariam wrote.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/302261/report-rebels-responsible-houla-massacre-john-rosenthal#

gurramok · 12-06-2012 10:38AM

Try and defend this the pro-Assad brigade.http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0612/us-fears-new-syrian-massacre.html

Syrian troops used children as human shields - UN

RTE wrote:

The United Nations branded the Syrian government as one of the worst offenders on its annual "list of shame" of conflict countries where children are killed, tortured and forced to fight.
Human rights groups estimate that about 1,200 children have died during the 15-month uprising against President Bashar al-Assad.
"Rarely, have I seen such brutality against children as in Syria, where girls and boys are detained, tortured, executed, and used as human shields," Radhika Coomaraswamy, UN special representative for children in armed conflict, told AFP ahead of the report's release.

Government forces rounded up dozens of boys aged eight to 13 before an attack on the village of Ayn l'Arouz in Idlib province on 9 March, the report said.
Reports from Syria cannot be independently verified as state authorities have barred international journalists and rights groups.
The children were "used by soldiers and militia members as human shields, placing them in front of the windows of buses carrying military personnel into the raid on the village," it said.
Quoting witnesses, the UN report said Syrian military and intelligence forces, as well as pro-government Shabiha militiamen, surrounded the village for an attack that lasted more than four days.
Among the 11 dead on the first day were three boys aged 15 to 17. Another 34 people, including two boys aged 14 and 16 and a nine-year-old girl, were detained.
"Eventually, the village was reportedly left burned and four out of the 34 detainees were shot and burned, including the two boys aged 14 and 16 years," the Children in Armed Conflict report said.
UN chief Ban Ki-moon said the report had uncovered one of many "grave violations" against children.
The Syrian government, and its allied militias, was one of four new parties added to the UN's list of shame - along with organisations and political parties in Sudan and Yemen.
The list includes 52 parties in 11 countries, ranging from the Afghan national police and the anti-US Haqqani network to the Lord's Resistance Army in central Africa, Sudanese armed forces and various Darfur rebel groups.

The report said children in Syria as young as nine had been victims of killing and maiming, arbitrary arrest, detention, torture and ill-treatment, including sexual violence.
Schools have been regularly raided and used as military bases and detention centres, the report said.
The report was completed before the Houla massacre on 25 May, when 49 of the 108 victims were said to be children, some as young as two and three, who were shot in the head or had their skulls smashed with blunt instruments.
"Most child victims of torture described being beaten, blindfolded, subjected to stress positions, whipped with heavy electrical cables, scarred by cigarette burns and, in one recorded case, subjected to electrical shock to the genitals," said the UN report.
At least one witness told investigators he had seen a boy of approximately 15 succumb to repeated beatings.
The New York-based Human Rights Watch said the UN Security Council should impose an arms embargo and other sanctions on the Assad government over its violations against children.
HRW quoted the Syria Violations Documentation Center, a network of Syrian activists, as saying that at least 1,176 children have been killed since February 2011.
It also said there were "credible allegations" that armed opposition groups, including the Free Syrian Army are recruiting children as soldiers.

wes · 12-06-2012 10:45AM

It really does seem to be that both side are nearly as bad as one another. Assad's force using Children as Human Shields, and the opposition fighters apparently recruiting child soldiers.

The real victim seems to be the average Syrian.

plasmaguy · 12-06-2012 02:16PM

wes wrote: »

It really does seem to be that both side are nearly as bad as one another. Assad's force using Children as Human Shields, and the opposition fighters apparently recruiting child soldiers.

The real victim seems to be the average Syrian.

How are they as bad as each other?

Did the FSA demolish entire cities with heavy artillery?

A typical attempt to muddy the waters from another Assad apologist. Suppose like all Assad apologists you will deny you are one.

The same sort of people used to post on the Libyan forum. Gadaffi apologists who denied they were when called on it.

For the record, Assad is 1000 times worse than the FSA so please don't say they are all the same.

Its like saying the French Resistance (who also murdered civilian collaborators and no doubt recruited child soldiers) were as bad as the Nazis.

wes · 12-06-2012 03:12PM

plasmaguy wrote: »

How are they as bad as each other?

Not going to waste time replying to your entire post, but you seem to not understand the meaning of the word "nearly". That or you deliberately ignored it, to go on a rant. Seriously your "debating" style amounts to hyperbole. I stand by my comment, any group that uses a child soldier imho deserve little or no respect. I have a huge problem with anyone putting children in danger, and so when Assad does it I take issue with it, but if I were to ignore the other side doing it, then that would make me a hypocrite. Yes, Assad is worse than the other guy, but that no excuse for them using child soldiers, and that on its own nearly (notice the word nearly again) make them as bad.

BTW, I was supportive of the ousting of Ghaddafi, but then you like to go off an silly rants...............

plasmaguy · 12-06-2012 03:58PM

wes wrote: »

Not going to waste time replying to your entire post, but you seem to not understand the meaning of the word "nearly". That or you deliberately ignored it, to go on a rant. Seriously your "debating" style amounts to hyperbole. I stand by my comment, any group that uses a child soldier imho deserve little or no respect. I have a huge problem with anyone putting children in danger, and so when Assad does it I take issue with it, but if I were to ignore the other side doing it, then that would make me a hypocrite. Yes, Assad is worse than the other guy, but that no excuse for them using child soldiers, and that on its own nearly (notice the word nearly again) make them as bad.

BTW, I was supportive of the ousting of Ghaddafi, but then you like to go off an silly rants...............

You are talking relative, that's fair enough.

No-one has argued the FSA are perfect no more than those who fought against Gadaffi were perfect.

But they are 1000 times better than Assad.

Assad is a mass murdering thug, that for me is the main point.

FSA soldiers who defected rather than shoot unarmed protesters deserve credit.

wes · 12-06-2012 04:15PM

plasmaguy wrote: »

FSA soldiers who defected rather than shoot unarmed protesters deserve credit.

Yes, of course, but clearly some of them are very dodgy, and imho the world should be careful who they support.

To give the example of Libya, there are some armed groups who never should have been supported, and if people were a bit more careful, some of the problems could have been avoided there.

In case of the FSA, saying to them, if they use child soldiers, then they will lose support. So they will either smarten up, or show themselves to not be worthy of trust.

As I said before, I am not against intervention, just against it, if it makes things worse.

cyberhog · 12-06-2012 04:22PM

gurramok wrote: »

Try and defend this the pro-Assad brigade.http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0612/us-fears-new-syrian-massacre.html

Syrian troops used children as human shields - UN

Whoa! hold on a minute! why do you construe scepticism of the western media's coverage of the conflict with support for Assad?

Look at the article you linked:

Government forces rounded up dozens of boys aged eight to 13 before an attack on the village of Ayn l'Arouz in Idlib province on 9 March, the report said.
Reports from Syria cannot be independently verified ....

Quoting witnesses, the UN report said Syrian military and intelligence forces, as well as pro-government Shabiha militiamen, surrounded the village for an attack that lasted more than four days.

If what these witnesses say can't be independently verified then why should we believe them? They could rebel sympathisers for all we know. The fact is the western media can print anything it wants, since its barrage of disinformation cannot be independently verified.

The BBC are more cautious about human shields allegation:

our correspondent says that although it is clear that children are being killed, maimed and abused, the report of them being used as human shields on tanks is not one that has surfaced before.

He says activists would have been the first to play this up, and if it had been common practice it would have been reported by those on the ground long ago.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18409500

I think it's important to remember that there is too much unverified information coming out of Syria for any person to speak with absolute certainty about what is happening.

plasmaguy · 12-06-2012 04:30PM

I'd like to see more detail about the child report story first before I can comment on that specific story.

So far I've seen little evidence of widescale FSA abuses.

On the other side, I see a systematic campaign of terror against the entire Syrian population and in Syria if you step out of line you probably end up dead at the hand of Assad's forces, since there is zero tolerance of opposition, particularly since the start of the Arab Spring.

As for Russia allowing the Syrian people to choose to keep Assad or not, its just the Russians doing what they always do.

Syria is a puppet state of Syria and Assad a puppet of Moscow and I don't honestly think they will ever abandon him no matter how many more people he kills.

The outcome in Syria is fairly predictable, the entire country reduced to rubble and also a long and nasty civil war probably similar to Lebenon, which went on for years and even decades. I don't think that would bother the Russians too much, you need morality and a conscience to be bothered by these things.

gurramok · 12-06-2012 05:01PM

cyberhog wrote: »

Whoa! hold on a minute! why do you construe scepticism of the western media's coverage of the conflict with support for Assad?

Look at the article you linked:

If what these witnesses say can't be independently verified then why should we believe them? They could rebel sympathisers for all we know. The fact is the western media can print anything it wants, since its barrage of disinformation cannot be independently verified.

The BBC are more cautious about human shields allegation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18409500

I think it's important to remember that there is too much unverified information coming out of Syria for any person to speak with absolute certainty about what is happening.

The UN says it so. I take the UN's word over yours.

plasmaguy · 12-06-2012 07:04PM

You always know when Russia says something like they are not supporting Assad and would not oppose his removal if that's what the Syrian people want, they really mean the opposite.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/12/syria-crisis-clinton-idUSL1E8HC6GM20120612

Russia are just not credible peace negotiators in this conflict, in fact they are stirring the conflict.

What if Assad is telling the truth?

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