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Sinn Fein- Never forget

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    #512
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Look forward to a bright peaceful future. That will include SF. Don't forget that on a local level SF work really hard within their communities and this could well account for their increased popularity at the polls.
    I am a West Brit, i was living and working in London when the IRA destroyed the financial district. I also spent part of my youth growing up in Ireland watching the death and destruction.
    I live in the here and now and think Ireland should accept that some day soon SF could and should be part of a coalition.
    I second that. I was born in England to an English father and Irish mother. Back and forth between the two countries throughout the 80's and 90's. I was in London when Canary Wharf happened. I too am well aware of what the IRA was capable of doing. I also understand the injustice dealt out by the British government at the time and the anger among republicans.

    Weirdly enough I'd feel worse voting for FG/FF than Sinn Fein (despite their wacky economic policies)

    You need to involve them in the discussion and welcome different points of view rather than using exclusion tactics. We need them (republicans) politically involved not on the fringes blowing things up.


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    #513
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    EURATS wrote: »
    Nodin wrote: »
    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    And the number of SF cheerleaders is quite remarkable too. I guess this could reflect the age profile of posters - if, like me, you rememeber things like the Enniskillen bombing, the Warrington bombing where the IRA murdered two small children, the proxy bombs where they kidnapped innocent men's families and threatened to murder them unless the men carried out a suicide truck bombing...that sort of stuff stays with you. I guess if you are 20, you can more easily distance yourself from it, but this stuff was going on when I was in my teens..


    Some of us are in our 40's.
    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    I suppose it's the similar to the way there are neo-Nazi movements gaining strength around Europe, and you wonder who could be so stupid as to believe in that evil and failed ideology; but then the people that do choose very carefully the version of history they subscribe to (a version where the Holocaust never really happened, and the Nazi's actions were justified by the times etc. etc.), and they weren't around to see where their ideology actually leads.

    People do indeed have short memories.

    Dear o dear.


    What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? That was ok monty?
    There was a war on, no side has a monopoly on suffering - hey, the Shinner excuses work for those too!

    Personally I think it was disgraceful, but Shinners can't really say the same without hypocrisy.


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    #514
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? That was ok monty?[/Quote]
    There was a war on, no side has a monopoly on suffering - hey, the Shinner excuses work for those too!

    Personally I think it was disgraceful, but Shinners can't really say the same without hypocrisy.[/Quote]


    So testing a nuclear device and killing 200k people can be justified because of war..would u not consider it as a terrorist attack?


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    #515
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    stefanovich wrote: »
    You need to involve them in the discussion and welcome different points of view rather than using exclusion tactics. We need them (republicans) politically involved not on the fringes blowing things up.
    Vote for them or they will start killing people again? A persuasive, if morally bankrupt, argument.


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    #516
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    stefanovich wrote: »
    You need to involve them in the discussion and welcome different points of view rather than using exclusion tactics. We need them (republicans) politically involved not on the fringes blowing things up.
    Vote for them or they will start killing people again? A persuasive, if morally bankrupt, argument.


    Absolute rubbish monty. Ur really scraping the barrel now


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    #517
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    EURATS wrote: »
    So testing a nuclear device and killing 200k people can be justified because of war..would u not consider it as a terrorist attack?
    I certainly would. But as a Sinn Feiner, you presumably feel that terrorism is a valid activity? So how can you come out against Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Is it just a matter of scale?


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    #518
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    EURATS wrote: »
    So testing a nuclear device and killing 200k people can be justified because of war..would u not consider it as a terrorist attack?
    I certainly would. But as a Sinn Feiner, you presumably feel that terrorism is a valid activity? So how can you come out against Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Is it just a matter of scale?


    Have u a direct link to the moon? Who said I was a Sinn Fein supporter?

    In relation to scale..there is no comparison. The yanks and Brits are continuing their killing as we speak. Are you going to vilify them for that?


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    #519
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    EURATS wrote: »
    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    stefanovich wrote: »
    You need to involve them in the discussion and welcome different points of view rather than using exclusion tactics. We need them (republicans) politically involved not on the fringes blowing things up.
    Vote for them or they will start killing people again? A persuasive, if morally bankrupt, argument.


    Absolute rubbish monty. Ur really scraping the barrel now
    Powerful comeback there. You have no counter-argument at all? You should probably take a back seat here, you are making your side look foolish now.


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    #520
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    EURATS wrote: »
    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    stefanovich wrote: »
    You need to involve them in the discussion and welcome different points of view rather than using exclusion tactics. We need them (republicans) politically involved not on the fringes blowing things up.
    Vote for them or they will start killing people again? A persuasive, if morally bankrupt, argument.


    Absolute rubbish monty. Ur really scraping the barrel now
    Powerful comeback there. You have no counter-argument at all? You should probably take a back seat here, you are making your side look foolish now.


    I didnt realise u were looking for so much detail. Maybe u could make more assumptions about me and write a novel of rubbish?


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    #521
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Vote for them or they will start killing people again? A persuasive, if morally bankrupt, argument.
    NO! You understand me and are twisting my words to suit your own ends. I am talking about involving republicans in the political process, not excluding them.


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    #522
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    I certainly would. But as a Sinn Feiner, you presumably feel that terrorism is a valid activity? So how can you come out against Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Is it just a matter of scale?

    Seriously???? :rolleyes:


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    #523
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    I certainly would. But as a Sinn Feiner, you presumably feel that terrorism is a valid activity? So how can you come out against Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Is it just a matter of scale?
    Hate to break this to you but as much as you would like it to be the case Sinn Fein != IRA. Sinn Fein may include some former members but it is a peaceful political organisation.

    Nelson Mandela was also a terrorist in a former life. Should he too be excluded from politics?


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    #524
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    nua domhan wrote: »
    The point i was making was that on one hand you are sickened that anyone would vote for sinn fein, though on the other you admit that they have moved away from violence.

    That doesn't excuse their actions for so many years. It's like congratulating a serial killer for stopping.

    nua domhan wrote: »

    Can you point me to the part when Sinn Fein said they condone the murder of garda McCabe?

    Their actions throughout the whole fiasco tell me everything I need to know frankly. I've mentioned it several times.
    nua domhan wrote: »
    or indeed any murder?

    Are you for real? They were the political wing of the IRA in case you forgot.


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    #525
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    nua domhan wrote: »
    The point i was making was that on one hand you are sickened that anyone would vote for sinn fein, though on the other you admit that they have moved away from violence.

    That doesn't excuse their actions for so many years. It's like congratulating a serial killer for stopping.

    nua domhan wrote: »

    Can you point me to the part when Sinn Fein said they condone the murder of garda McCabe?

    Their actions throughout the whole fiasco tell me everything I need to know frankly. I've mentioned it several times.
    nua domhan wrote: »
    or indeed any murder?

    Are you for real? They were the political wing of the IRA in case you forgot.



    I take it you live in the north? What experience have you of the IRA? Family member killed?kneecapped?


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    #526
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    EURATS name me the party of yanks and Brits that are running in ireland? Or the party here who had members directly involved in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?? SF has members who were involved in attacks, members who commemorate terrorists and members who collect Garda killers from prison..

    Why should we include republicans? FF have a republican ethos an an all Ireland agenda. SF ignored democracy when it suited them. And the IRA failed to recognise the government police abd courts of this state.

    My worry is that SF garhering support will lead to violence. I mean if SFers are complaining of the verbal 'abuse' they are receiving when they are tipping 20% if they ever get to a position where it looks like they could gain power I'd predict mass civil unrest, reluctance to pay tax, emigration and death threats and attacks in the SF leadership. Isn't that the republican MO, don't get what you want and make veiled threats?? Such as 'careful now, that might cause a split'. That IRA 'split' that was always threatened obviously means some people aren't going to like that and theyll turn violent. Well I predict a split if SF gain power and it could get dangerous. Obviously I don't condone that course but I'd worry it'd come true...


    Sorry did I do that right Shinners? Feign condemnation but issue a warning that if something we don't like happens it might get hairy??? I'm not great at it, you've 30 years more experience of that type of bargaining to get to various tables.


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    #527
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Laminations wrote: »
    EURATS name me (.....)bargaining to get to various tables.

    That "subjectivity and objectivity" thing is really showing through in that post, it has to be said.


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    #528
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Nodin wrote: »
    That "subjectivity and objectivity" thing is really showing through in that post, it has to be said.

    What are you on about? How's that research coming?


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    #529
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Re laminations.

    I'll do my best to respond to your essay.

    Considering our government allow extraordinary rendition and US troops through Shannon, I would say that they are firmly in bed with the Americans.

    The other jargon about SF, potential split etc...I will leave you to wonder about that.


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    #530
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Nodin wrote: »
    Laminations wrote: »
    EURATS name me (.....)bargaining to get to various tables.

    That "subjectivity and objectivity" thing is really showing through in that post, it has to be said.


    What?


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    #531
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Laminations wrote: »
    What are you on about? ?

    The hysterical hyperbole, scaremongering and hand-wringing evident in your last post. You stated to an earlier poster that you preferred to refer to "subjective and objective" reports, which was quite amusing, given the general tone of your posts.
    Laminations wrote: »
    How's that research coming?

    I explained that "research" remark already.


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    #532
    SMASH THE UNIONS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 210 ✭✭SMASH THE UNIONS


    stefanovich wrote: »
    You need to involve them in the discussion and welcome different points of view rather than using exclusion tactics. We need them (republicans) politically involved not on the fringes blowing things up.

    Again with the veiled threats. As if the only two options are we all become SF voters or they go back to blowing things up. How about we ignore them for their extremist and irrational policies? It's the equivalent of me occupying the GPO in Dublin and demanding people listen to me or I'll bomb the place. It appears SF haven't changed.


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    #533
    Hannibal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭Hannibal


    SMASH THE UNIONS wrote: »
    Again with the veiled threats. As if the only two options are we all become SF voters or they go back to blowing things up. How about we ignore them for their extremist and irrational policies? It's the equivalent of me occupying the GPO in Dublin and demanding people listen to me or I'll bomb the place. It appears SF haven't changed.
    How does it appear like that to you?

    Also Sinn Féin are not the IRA and the IRA have not threatened any action in a long time. They are on ceasefire since 1996 and decommissioned their weapons seven years ago and have been given the thumbs up in every report from the IMC ever since.


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    #534
    nua domhan
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭nua domhan


    SMASH THE UNIONS wrote: »
    Again with the veiled threats. As if the only two options are we all become SF voters or they go back to blowing things up. How about we ignore them for their extremist and irrational policies? It's the equivalent of me occupying the GPO in Dublin and demanding people listen to me or I'll bomb the place. It appears SF haven't changed.

    Is stefanovich SF? or someone with a stupid argument?

    Sorry Stefanovich, but saying something like that reaffirms these idiot's view that if SF or republicans don't get what they want they will resort to violence. Simply not true, and i would not vote for them if it was. The GFA wasn't all swings and roundabouts and again i'll state, the IRA were the first paramilitary organisation to verifiably put their weapons beyond use.
    LAMINATIONS wrote: »
    Sorry did I do that right Shinners? Feign condemnation but issue a warning that if something we don't like happens it might get hairy??? I'm not great at it, you've 30 years more experience of that type of bargaining to get to various tables

    If laminations actually thinks that various governments were threatened into bringing SF to negotiating tables (including his beloved own) then those governments would be all be cowards and liars. SF talked peace because that is what they, and the community they represented wanted. Concessions and sacrifices (on all sides) have been made for it.


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    #535
    nua domhan
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭nua domhan


    nua domhan wrote: »

    The point i was making was that on one hand you are sickened that anyone would vote for sinn fein, though on the other you admit that they have moved away from violence.
    gaffer91 wrote: »
    That doesn't excuse their actions for so many years. It's like congratulating a serial killer for stopping.

    You have heard of Parole i assume? You stopped your analogy short, it's like a serial killer stopping, realising that they had to change and working to put right the things that happened in the past.
    nua domhan wrote: »
    Can you point me to the part when Sinn Fein said they condone the murder of garda McCabe?
    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Their actions throughout the whole fiasco tell me everything I need to know frankly. I've mentioned it several times.

    The action of picking someone up from jail is condoning the murder? Are there any other massive leaps of conclusion you draw from everyday things? If i gave you a glass of milk would you conclude i'm a cow?
    nua domhan wrote: »
    or indeed any murder?
    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Are you for real? They were the political wing of the IRA in case you forgot.

    I have not forgotten, nor have i forgotten their apologies made for the violence and hurt caused by them in the troubles. A lot of posters on here conveniently have.

    Again, if you can just point me to the part when they condone the murder of Garda McCabe i'd be very grateful.


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    #536
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    While SF would like to sweep these despicable actions under the rug, it is important that they are always kept fresh in people's minds.

    Ya think? Well no it's not, that's precisely the mindset which prolonged the conflict on this island for so long. Constantly reopening wounds and never allowing them to heal. Wow, that's a fresh and original approach alright. So why elevate the unfortunate and regrettable death of one man, above the thousands that died in the conflict? Isn't all life equally precious?

    The politics of the past put this island in a mire for long enough. The principled combatants in the conflict have long put their guns down and moved on, maybe you should learn to follow suite.
    gaffer91 wrote: »
    While this thread serves to remind people of SF's disgraceful past,

    Remind? This thread only serves to remind me of a small proportion of people, who are perpetually stuck in the past. Thankfully the majority of people have embraced the new reality. I always find it amazing that those who inflicted the most suffering and horrors on each others communities, have move forward together in a spirit of peace and cooperation. And then you read the OP, which is quite ridiculous really when you look at the bigger picture.
    gaffer91 wrote: »
    the question I want to ask is- when you bear all this in mind how does anyone vote for SF, never mind 1 in 5 voters?

    So you're upset about Sinn Fein's political growth? Yes it's tough I know, but you just need to get over it really and learn to accept the concepts of democracy and freedom of choice.


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    #537
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    nua domhan wrote: »
    Is stefanovich SF? or someone with a stupid argument?

    Sorry Stefanovich, but saying something like that reaffirms these idiot's view that if SF or republicans don't get what they want they will resort to violence.
    I most certainly am not SF. What I am saying is that a lot has improved and I welcome republicans being involved in the political process and not engaged in violence.


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    #538
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    Ya think? Well no it's not, that's precisely the mindset which prolonged the conflict on this island for so long. Constantly reopening wounds and never allowing them to heal. Wow, that's a fresh and original approach alright. So why elevate the unfortunate and regrettable death of one man, above the thousands that died in the conflict? Isn't all life equally precious?
    Was this the SF/IRA position when they were murdering young children or ordering proxy suicide bombings? It's fine rhetoric though, fair play.
    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    The politics of the past put this island in a mire for long enough. The principled combatants in the conflict have long put their guns down and moved on, maybe you should learn to follow suite.
    I'm sure everybody is delighted that they've stopped murdering people, but that doesn't mean we have to forget what they did in the past, does it? Anders Breivik has stopped killing people too - would you give him a preference if he called to your door?
    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    Remind? This thread only serves to remind me of a small proportion of people, who are perpetually stuck in the past. Thankfully the majority of people have embraced the new reality. I always find it amazing that those who inflicted the most suffering and horrors on each others communities, have move forward together in a spirit of peace and cooperation. And then you read the OP, which is quite ridiculous really when you look at the bigger picture.
    Well, seeing as you are not stuck in the past, I can imagine you patiently hearing out Breivik's positions on the Household Charge and educational policy on your doorstep, rather than telling him to take a hike.
    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    So you're upset about Sinn Fein's political growth? Yes it's tough I know, but you just need to get over it really and learn to accept the concepts of democracy and freedom of choice.
    Well it took Sinn Fein 30 bloody years to learn to accept it, so let's not throw stones, eh?


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    #539
    golfball37
    Registered Users Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭golfball37


    When you break down the boxes and votes from this referrendum you would come to the conclusion that the opinion polls showing SF increased support looks well founded. A lot of strong Labour areas returned a significant no vote. SF could quite easily do a number on the LP in the next election.


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    #540
    swimming in a sea
    Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭swimming in a sea


    bad day today for Sinn Fein, can't say they are not a growing party but much like the nazis who the majority of people hated at first, so the rest of irish society must stay strong against a terminal cancer party like sinn fein.


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    #541
    Hannibal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭Hannibal


    swimming in a sea wrote: »
    bad day today for Sinn Fein, can't say they are not a growing party but much like the nazis who the majority of people hated at first, so the rest of irish society must stay strong against a terminal cancer party like sinn fein.
    Sinn Fein were previously in government in the 1st Dáil and 2nd Dáil.

    Speaking about Nazi's.. I think FG are the ones who are more like Nazi's when you look at their history.


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