Rangers FC lodge papers to go into administration

Dempsey · 25-05-2012 09:21PM

They missed alot of deadlines and didnt see alot of things coming despite being in regular meetings with the SPL & SFA. They gave bidders skewed information and they arent giving the SFA & SPL the documentation they are demanding. I think their previous work for Whyte compromises their objectivity and at least bends the regulations in place to the limits. The timing of everything that D&P have done is suspect to me and has been for a long time. They are either incompetent when it comes to a football club in administration or something more sinister is going on.

bobbysands81 · 25-05-2012 10:17PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Don't know, but what good would that do ?

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I did donate to RFFF, and... ?

On the one hand you don't think that the folks paid £49m in EBTs by RFC returning that money would do any good but spending a few quid on a rosette does???

bobbysands81 · 25-05-2012 10:19PM

Dempsey wrote: »

They missed alot of deadlines and didnt see alot of things coming despite being in regular meetings with the SPL & SFA. They gave bidders skewed information and they arent giving the SFA & SPL the documentation they are demanding. I think their previous work for Whyte compromises their objectivity and at least bends the regulations in place to the limits. The timing of everything that D&P have done is suspect to me and has been for a long time. They are either incompetent when it comes to a football club in administration or something more sinister is going on.

It's clear the SFA didn't want RFC to (or D&P) to provide them all the details on the EBT. That might have changed since the BBC doc the other night but if they had really wanted the know they would have demanded and received it. The SFA want others to make the big decisions that they're afraid of making.

Jelle1880 · 25-05-2012 10:21PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

On the one hand you don't think that the folks paid £49m in EBTs by RFC returning that money would do any good but spending a few quid on a rosette does???

Not at this point in time I don't.

Plus the fact we don't even know who actually really benefited from the EBT's, half of that list can't be proven apparently.

bobbysands81 · 25-05-2012 10:22PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Do you seriously think 47m will do any good if we're possibly hit with a 137m bill ?

Could be the difference of you being able to exit Admin through a CVA.

Do you think your donation to the RFFF will have made the slightest difference?

bobbysands81 · 25-05-2012 10:24PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Not at this point in time I don't.

Plus the fact we don't even know who actually really benefited from the EBT's, half of that list can't be proven apparently.

Too late with the editing again!

Jelle1880 · 25-05-2012 10:29PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Could be the difference of you being able to exit Admin through a CVA.

Do you think your donation to the RFFF will have made the slightest difference?

Do you ever not pose idiotic questions ?

Why does it care if I think a donation makes a difference ?
I donated because I felt it was the right thing to do.

If you think a donation makes no difference then you can tell Keith he can keep his money

Dempsey · 25-05-2012 10:40PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

It's clear the SFA didn't want RFC to (or D&P) to provide them all the details on the EBT. That might have changed since the BBC doc the other night but if they had really wanted the know they would have demanded and received it. The SFA want others to make the big decisions that they're afraid of making.

They have only set a deadline for all the information this week. Obviously they arent getting the information that the media are demonstrating. I can see the current SPL dual contracts investigation turning into a tribunal because of Rangers/D&P lack of co-operation.

bobbysands81 · 25-05-2012 11:11PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Do you ever not pose idiotic questions ?

You're the one that said there was no point going after players to return the £49m that they got in "loans" as it wouldn't make any difference to the amount that Rangers might owe... yet you thought the few £ that you threw into a bucket would make a difference?!

That's a complete contradiction.

Jelle1880 · 25-05-2012 11:12PM

I never said I thought it would make a difference, not with the amounts the club is being confronted with.

Doesn't mean I shouldn't do it though.

bobbysands81 · 25-05-2012 11:28PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I never said I thought it would make a difference, not with the amounts the club is being confronted with.

Doesn't mean I shouldn't do it though.

So you think it's pointless giving the money but you did so anyway?

Jelle1880 · 25-05-2012 11:34PM

I felt it was the right thing to do, that money has in the meantime been used to pay some small creditors, the QC for the case against the SFA,...

So no, it won't help with the bigger picture but at least it gives fans the idea they're helping out.

I don't even know why I'm trying to justify this ?

lubo_moravcik · 26-05-2012 01:04AM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Do you ever not pose idiotic questions ?

Why does it care if I think a donation makes a difference ?
I donated because I felt it was the right thing to do.

I was wondering why you never answered when I asked :rolleyes:

Anyway, what do we have here????????

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18212287?post_id=100000363923780_225541584230374#_=_

Dempsey · 26-05-2012 01:11AM

D&P are a highly reputable company with their hand in a wide range of industries. Expect them to defend their name to the hilt. Them like Whyte have underestimated the public scrutiny that comes with being involved with a football club like Rangers

Jelle1880 · 26-05-2012 01:12AM

lubo: Probably because I don't respond to questions that I've either already answered or that serve no purpose.

What good the RFFF serves ? Look up why it's there in the first place and you'll get your answer.

lubo_moravcik · 26-05-2012 01:13AM

was a simple question. you said there's no point in chasing people up for money that was borrowed, which in total adds upto a hefty amount, but it's ok to donate your own hard earned money in the hope that will do something.

I couldn't care less anyway, was just curious at the mindset I suppose.

Would calling in the loans, eg the Souness 30k which you yourself agree is 'weird' not help too?

bobbysands81 · 26-05-2012 12:22PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I felt it was the right thing to do, that money has in the meantime been used to pay some small creditors, the QC for the case against the SFA,...

So no, it won't help with the bigger picture but at least it gives fans the idea they're helping out.

I don't even know why I'm trying to justify this ?

1. Some poor Rangers fans (who didn't get tax free interest free loans from the club) throw a few £ into bucket is worthwhile.

2. Some millionaire Rangers fans (who did get tax free interest free loans from the club) should not be chased to pay back these loans as it's not worthwhile???

I find that astonishing.

Jelle1880 · 26-05-2012 12:52PM

CHARLES GREEN claims he has struck a deal with the taxman to take over at Rangers – and in a separate move says he will meet Celtic chief Peter Lawwell on Monday.
Preferred bidder Green says he has reached informal agreement with HMRC over the partial repayment of Rangers’ debts through a Conditional Voluntary Agreement (CVA).
And in what will be seen as a highly significant move, he says he will meet Lawwell ahead of a summit of SPL clubs.
The SPL meeting on Wednesday will discuss what sanctions will be imposed on Rangers if Green fails to get his CVA agreed and the club have to be re-constituted into a new company.
Former Sheffield United chief executive Green said of the planned CVA: “HMRC have given us the nod but we need it in writing.”
Letters to the club’s creditors seeking agreement to the CVA – which will see £8.5million distributed to Rangers’ creditors – are due to go out on Monday.
Green said: “We are in the very final stages of completing the CVA and that’s expected very, very shortly.”
Green is the first of Rangers’ would-be buyers to seek a meeting with the other side of the Old Firm.
Lawwell is under pressure from some sections of the Celtic supporters to press for heavy sanctions against Rangers if the Ibrox club go down the newco route.
But Green is likely to appeal to Lawwell to do the opposite should the CVA fail to come about.
Meanwhile, Green launched an attack on both Craig Whyte and former owner David Murray’s stewardship of the club.
He said: “The problem with the club historically is there has been no corporate governance.
“There was no accountability, no corporate balance.”
He said he will appoint independent directors to the Rangers board, including wealthy fund manager Stephen Adams, a Gers season ticket holder.
Green said: “What we need to do is get people who haven’t got shares on the board so they are not influenced by the share holding.
“When they make a decision then it’s made on the basis of what is proper and what is right, not what is in David Murray’s interest or that of David Murray holdings or in the interest of Craig Whyte.”
Watchdogs probe Duff & Phelps
WATCHDOGS last night launched a probe into Rangers’ administrators Duff & Phelps.
The Insolvency Practitioners Association are looking into claims of a conflict of interest made in a BBC documentary.
The programme suggested Duff & Phelps partner David Grier knew Craig Whyte paid for the club by mortgaging future season tickets to Ticketus.
Duff & Phelps deny that are now taking legal action against the BBC.
An IPA spokesman said he could not comment on an ongoing investigation. But a source said: “The IPA are making itself aware of all the circumstances. The allegations made in the BBC documentary are very serious and questions need to be answered.”
Joint administrator Paul Clark said: “We positively welcome any investigation by the IPA. This will enable the true facts to emerge.”

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2012/05/26/rangers-in-crisis-preferred-bidder-charles-green-says-he-s-done-a-deal-with-taxman-86908-23873933/

Dempsey · 26-05-2012 01:04PM

“The problem with the club historically is there has been no corporate governance.
“There was no accountability, no corporate balance.”

Reflects very badly on every director on the Rangers board for the last 2 decades.

Also, how Campbell Ogilvie is still in his job whilst the dual contract investigation and chatter about conflicts of interests is going on is absolutely mind boggling.

lubo_moravcik · 26-05-2012 03:00PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

1. Some poor Rangers fans (who didn't get tax free interest free loans from the club) throw a few £ into bucket is worthwhile.

2. Some millionaire Rangers fans (who did get tax free interest free loans from the club) should not be chased to pay back these loans as it's not worthwhile???

I find that astonishing.

I genuinely don't 'get' this either Bobby and am starting to think is it me who's looking at it wrong.

bobbysands81 · 26-05-2012 03:27PM

lubo_moravcik wrote: »

I genuinely don't 'get' this either Bobby and am starting to think is it me who's looking at it wrong.

Basically Jelle thinks that him throwing £5 to Rangers is worthwhile but Novo returning the £1.2m in a loan he has from Rangers isn't.

There's just no logic there.

Savage Tyrant · 26-05-2012 03:32PM

The agreement with the Green consortium is that they'll distribute 8.5 million to the credititors then the rest paid penny in the pound via CVA.
Yet Jelle doesn't see why the return of even a percentage of the 49 odd million EBT Tax free loans would be more benificial than his change from the burger stand outside the ground?

Jelle1880 · 26-05-2012 07:11PM

Probably because nobody knows who they should pay back money that they supposedly received.

Do tell: Who do they pay the loans back to ?

Murray ?
Rangers, being the administrators ?
Green ?

If you have guys like Barry Ferguson, who apparently earned millions in EBT's refusing to donate anything to the RFFF, why would they give back that money ?
Force their hand ? How ?

Don't get me wrong, it would be a good move for some of those involved to say 'Ok, here's the money back', but I highly doubt it would happen.

And the reason I said that it won't do much good is because I don't think you can just throw that money into a pot and use it to either add to a CVA or pay off debts.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

bobbysands81 · 27-05-2012 09:23AM

Taken from HB so not sure of source.

"SUNDAY 27 MAY 2012
I refuse to believe major players evaded paying millions in tax

I want to address the revelation in Wednesday night's BBC Panorama programme that I was one of the people to receive money at Rangers through an employee benefit trust (EBT).

I feel that I have to defend myself and fight my corner because I have not done anything wrong. I have paid every bit of tax throughout my professional career, at every club, including Rangers.

The full story is that David Murray came to me and asked if I would receive a payment that was due to me, after tax, through the EBT trust. And I said that I would. It was money that was owing to me when I had six months left on my contract and I moved to Dundee United. After the tax was deducted, that money was put in the trust fund.

This was a single payment made when I was leaving the club. I did not receive any payments through the trust fund at any other point of my Rangers career. I don't know what other EBTs there were while I was at the club, and we never discussed them as players, although I refuse to believe that major players evaded millions of pounds in tax.

There was certainly no benefit to me from being paid this money through the trust fund. It was simply what I was due, the tax was deducted, and the club simply asked that they pay it to me through the fund. I had no issue with that and, of course, EBTs were legal at the time. It was Rangers who asked me to use the fund.

As a player, you're aware of all sorts of different schemes for putting your money into.

It's not that players are dodging tax, it's just that there are different avenues open to them to pay lower tax rates. There are schemes such as film partnerships that you could pay money into as an individual and so not pay higher tax rates. Image rights seem to be a more recent one that is popular in England.

There is nothing illegal in it, and the EBTs were the same. I want to stress that mine was simply a one-off payment, after tax, when I left the club, not some sort of remuneration scheme.

I never heard anything about side letters when I was at the club, not one person ever mentioned anything like that.

I've been in Spain golfing, so I've not yet seen the BBC programme, but I was shocked to hear that 87 players and staff were involved in the EBT scheme at Ibrox – but it should also be remembered that the trusts were not illegal.

People do have to understand that this wasn't players or staff trying to do something that would harm Rangers. And I do feel that it wasn't telling the full truth for the programme to bracket all the players and staff together if the EBTs were different for each of them.

All I can say is that in no way did I avoid paying tax, in no way was I paid wages or anything through an EBT over the course of my contract, and in no way was I aware of any side letters.

It amazes me that John Yorkston has the gall to talk about Rangers not paying their bills. He's a hypocrite, and he should start making sure that his club pay their bills instead. Jim McIntyre served a writ on Dunfermline on Thursday because he has still yet to receive his settlement after being sacked by the club last season.

The issue is with the court now, because Dunfermline said they cannot pay it in one instalment. Yet John Yorkston is in the press all the time talking about other clubs. He should be looking after the financial affairs of his own club."

Looks like Billy Dodds in trying to exonerate himself has throw Rangers to the dogs!

He admits the payments through the EBT was contractual, never told it was loan and was told tax was deducted at source!

Game over (yet again).

A Dub in Glasgo · 27-05-2012 01:01PM

That is from the Sunday Herald

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/i-refuse-to-believe-major-players-evaded-paying-millions-in-tax.17704904

A Dub in Glasgo · 27-05-2012 01:06PM

Jelle, the reason why nobody will pay back a penny of those 'loans' or anyone will ask for them is the fact that they were staff wages and salaries. That is the crux of the Big Tax Case. Tax evasion was (is) endemic at Rangers and the club should be utterly ashamed of its actions.

bobmalooka · 28-05-2012 01:05PM

G'man Billy.

Just blew apart Rangers defense of the EBT scheme in public, although i doubt that defence was going to stand up anyway.

Interesting that he claims the staff were told tax had been paid, very very naughty. Have Rangers also defrauded their own staff??

PauloMN · 28-05-2012 02:43PM

bobmalooka wrote: »

G'man Billy.

Just blew apart Rangers defense of the EBT scheme in public, although i doubt that defence was going to stand up anyway.

Interesting that he claims the staff were told tax had been paid, very very naughty. Have Rangers also defrauded their own staff??

That whole "I was told my tax was being paid" thing is bollocks anyway. It's up to every individual to ensure that their personal taxes are all in order. Professional footballers are the same as everybody else in that regard.

Dempsey · 28-05-2012 04:52PM

Dont ever say that the SPL dont do you any favours!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18240543

The Scottish Premier League has granted Rangers "a period of grace" after the club missed the deadline for filing financial documents.

The book should have been thrown at ye today

Dempsey · 28-05-2012 08:54PM

CVA wont be offered until tomorrow, they couldnt even hit their very loose "Friday or Monday" deadline

Rangers FC lodge papers to go into administration

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