Census Inconsistencies 1901-1911

Victor · 26-05-2012 01:16PM

Neevy1 wrote: »

Do you know what under denominational protestant Marion Hale refers to?

Perhaps "Marian Hall"?

shanew · 26-05-2012 01:21PM

Neevy1 wrote: »

Hi Shanew
....
Yes this Sarah is my maternal G Grand Mother but she was actually christened in Westmeath.
Married to John McCormick (spelled incorrectly with an ack on all documents)

Sarah told everyone she was born in Monaghan as did my grand mother but there is no corroboration just church records of christenings none in Monaghan.
...

possible extracted civil birth for Sarah from FamilySearch :

name: Sarah Vance
birth date: 18 Jan 1875
birthplace: Multyfarnham, Co. Westmeath (sub-district)
parents : Joseph Vance & Jane Tutty
ref : p329 ln455

The matching BMD index details are :

name: Sarah Vance
registration district: Mullingar
event type: Birth
Year: 1875
Volume: 3 / Page : 329

Shane

shanew · 26-05-2012 01:41PM

three other children for the couple (two unnamed at time of registration) :

Lena Vance / 24 Aug 1876 / "Dublin" / v 12-1 p 705
[Female] Vance / 20 Sep 1878 / "Dublin" / v 2-2 p 575
[Female] Vance / 18 Nov 1880 / Dublin - 43 Kildare St. / v 2-2 p 499

The child born in 1878 seems to have died the same year. In 1880 the Kildare street address is listed as "Kearns' hotel"...

Shane

Neevy1 · 26-05-2012 01:44PM

Ok here goes regards Sarah and Laura Vance.

Sarah
born 18 Jan 1875
christned Multyfarnham Westmeath
record taken from LDS ireland births and baptisms 1620-1881

Laura
born 18 Nov 1880 of 43 Kildare St
Baptised 25th Nov1880 of 43 kildare st.

There were arother couple of children all who died as infants.
Lena, born 24.08.1876 at 5 Fredrick lane ...died July/sept 1876
Emily, born 20.09.1878 Christened on 28.09 1878 no address given
Emily, born 23.12.1882 39 York st.

Joseph Vance of Kilruddery Bray
and
Jane Tutty of 32 St Stephens Green North.
were married on 13.04.1874
both of full age

shanew · 26-05-2012 01:48PM

The captions on those FamilySearch records are misleading - the details are from extracted civil births (e.g. Sarah), not baptism/christenings.

Shane

Neevy1 · 26-05-2012 01:51PM

Things must have been pretty grim when you realise what actually happened to every family back then.

Neevy1 · 26-05-2012 01:58PM

Thanks Shane
I do realise that things are not wholly as the seem on some sites but when your filling your unemployed time and cant spend what you've not got on paying for access and records it is all you are left with.

I really am bowled over with all of your help you have
to be one of the good guys
and you to Victor I never thought of Hall in stead of Hale.
but would Marion Hall make sense for C of I ?

Niamh

shanew · 26-05-2012 02:13PM

I was going to suggest that maybe whatever congregation she was part didn't have their own place of worship and hired out the local RC parish hall... but I would have thought she would write down the name of the congregation or maybe their preacher/minister, rather than where they met.

It looks like Hale to me on the return, but Hall is possibly what she meant...

S.

Jellybaby1 · 26-05-2012 05:34PM

I haven't checked your census records regarding 'Marian Hall' but I believe it should be 'Merrion Hall'. See these links:

http://www.preciousseed.org/article_detail.cfm?articleID=1457
http://armstrongfamily.webs.com/ourfamilytestimonies.htm

shanew · 26-05-2012 06:39PM

I know of the building, but I didn't know it was a non-denominational place of worship.... looking at the return again, maybe the last letter which I thought was an 'e' is a slightly short 'l' ?

It's listed as just 'Merrion Hall' in Thom's 1914 - no clues as to it's function, 1894 lists it as Merrion Hall Church. I think the building is a hotel now.

Shane

Neevy1 · 26-05-2012 07:29PM

You guys are the biz ...

I believe you are correct. Merrion Hall is the one...I have just read the links info and The (Plymouth) Brethren used to worship there.
Have you ever thought about sleuthing for a private investigation company you would be brill...

Thanks so much
N

Hermy · 26-05-2012 09:09PM

Victor wrote: »

Some streets have been re-numbered over the years. It is possible that Mountpleasant Avenue Upper used the same numbering sequence as the rest of Mountpleasant Avenue. The census lists 1-109 (Mountpleasant Avenue Upper) and 148-164 (Mountpleasant Avenue)

Thanks for the reply Victor but is it not the other way round - 1-109 Mountpleasant Avenue & 148-164 Mountpleasant Avenue Upper?

Jellybaby1 · 26-05-2012 11:43PM

shanew wrote: »

I know of the building, but I didn't know it was a non-denominational place of worship.... looking at the return again, maybe the last letter which I thought was an 'e' is a slightly short 'l' ?

It's listed as just 'Merrion Hall' in Thom's 1914 - no clues as to it's function, 1894 lists it as Merrion Hall Church. I think the building is a hotel now.

Shane

Neevy1 wrote: »

You guys are the biz ...

I believe you are correct. Merrion Hall is the one...I have just read the links info and The (Plymouth) Brethren used to worship there.
Have you ever thought about sleuthing for a private investigation company you would be brill...

Thanks so much
N

To be honest, those who know of Merrion Hall would have immediately read it as Merrion Hall. I unfortunately never attended but I do know some who did. There is no sleuthing required, it's just that those who know, know, and those who don't, don't. Simple as that. Some friends come from Plymouth Brethren roots, which I believe to be quite conservative and strict, but those I know are lovely folk.

Neevy1 · 27-05-2012 01:16PM

Thank you Jellybaby1
Your comments make perfect sense to me, as my grandmother who came directly from this line was to quote her eldest son. " mother was very hard and strict Victorian woman". So this fits perfectly with her upbringing with her own mother Sarah and in the later years with her grandmother Jane (plyms), whom she nursed personally until her death.

A genuine heart felt THANK YOU to all of you.
I am very glad I joined Boards.ie now another mystery solved.

Niamh

Barnbarroch · 24-08-2012 07:09AM

Given that this is/was a thread about Census inconsistencies - can anyone locate the couple in question, Joseph and Jane, in the 1901 census?

1911 - Holles Street, Trinity Ward, Dublin, but 1901?

Good luck,
Jamie.

Neevy1 wrote: »

Joseph Vance of Kilruddery Bray
and
Jane Tutty of 32 St Stephens Green North.
were married on 13.04.1874
both of full age

shanew · 24-08-2012 07:58AM

I see Jane in 1911 at Holles Street but not Joseph ?

see : Vance / Tutty / ... household

Jane's a widow in 1911 - what was Joseph's occupation on the marriage cert ?

Shane

shanew · 24-08-2012 08:00AM

he's a butler, or at least he was in 1874 : Vance / Tutty marriage

S.

shanew · 24-08-2012 08:07AM

Jane's already a widow in 1901 - see reply #25 in this thread :

Vickers/Doughton/O'Neill/Murphy/Vance household

S.

pedroeibar1 · 24-08-2012 08:09AM

Follow the Plymouth Brethren/Wicklow connection; look at the owners of the addresses given, it possibly will give you a lead or two.

The Plymouth Brethren are an interesting sect dating to the first half of the 1800’s in Ireland and were very popular with landed families Wicklow (Powerscourt) and several in Kerry – I did some research on a family that lost their estate due to long absence on proselytising travels. It is possible that as servants your people travelled with their employers.

The sect’s founder was John Nelson Darby, a Co. Wicklow deacon and former lawyer. Their creed is the forerunner of what is now known as the Christian Right, particularly the evangelical forms of Protestantism seen in the United States. After a bad fall from a horse Darby spent his convalescence studying the Bible, during which time his outlook became fundamentalist. His beliefs were founded in pre-millenarianism - a doctrine which suggests certain events are evidence of God's pre-determined plan to bring about the second coming of Christ. Despite the Jews' rejection of Jesus, Darby believed that they had a dispensation from God and the countdown to the second coming could only begin when the Jews had returned to their homeland. (Hence the huge support by the Right for Israel.)

By 1830, Darby had moved to Britain, and his followers were numerous on its south coast; his pamphlets were published in Plymouth, from which the sect obtained its name.

Barnbarroch · 24-08-2012 09:26AM

Oh yes, thanks very much.
Jamie

shanew wrote: »

Jane's already a widow in 1901 - see reply #25 in this thread :

Vickers/Doughton/O'Neill/Murphy/Vance household

S.

Neevy1 · 24-08-2012 01:37PM

Hi Guys
Joseph Vance was indeed in service of some kind from finding him first on the Marriage reg. his employ is documented on the church records of the christening of all of his children. It seems that most of the older generations of my family were in service of some kind or other even as far forward as my grand mother who worked as a cook in a big house in Whitehall Dublin. It makes me wonder where did the funds come from to purchase 13/14 Holles St. between 1901 and 1911 I can emagine servants were that well paid but she definitely owned them outright. I spoke to an Uncle from overseas who says he remembered being brought to Merrion Hall church as a very small child. Thank you, for the tips regarding the Plymouth brethren I will certainly read and record anything I see, which will give me insight to the kind of life they lived.

I have come to the same shuddering halt with James Hogg Decorator and fine writer who married (1883) Elizabeth Price who had some history with Drummartin house Dundrum. I have both parents names from the marriage reg. John Hogg Farmer and Samuel Price Tradesman. James Hogg being a stumbling block due to the famous Scotish poet. Also John McCormick (Monaghan) Servant, (Obviously not Count J McC Irish tenor) I have a lot of difficulty with these famous names getting in the way

Can anyone tell me where or what to do next? ...do I need death certs to get further information? and where do I get these older types of record if they indeed exist? are they expensive? any other information you think I could do with, would be appreciated.
Thanks again
Neevy

Barnbarroch · 24-08-2012 01:43PM

http://www.rootsireland.ie/

and yes, it's outrageously expensive.
Regards,
Jamie.

shanew · 24-08-2012 01:54PM

Neevy1 wrote: »

Hi Guys
....
I have come to the same shuddering halt with James Hogg Decorator and fine writer who married (1883) Elizabeth Price who had some history with Drummartin house Dundrum. I have both parents names from the marriage reg. John Hogg Farmer and Samuel Price Tradesman. .....

where were James and Elizabeth born, do you have them on 1901 and 1911 census ?

tbh death certs dont usually tell you very much, just the name of the deceased, their reported age, place of death and cause and occupation, plus the name and status of the informant - and information is not always accurate..

S.

Neevy1 · 24-08-2012 03:00PM

Hi Shane

I can find Elizabeth Price Hogg on the 1911 with sons James, Samuel and daughter Mary but can find them at all on the 1901 ....(this James was my grand father)

I got on to the cemetery (Mount Jerome) where he was interred they were very helpful and told me he was buried in 1903 but that does not explain whey they are not on the census for the 1901... I know from family word of mouth history that there was a fire in there home and they lost everything including all documents. and after that they could not prove the ownership of property and all was lost to them....maybe that had something to do with it.

As I said any tips you can offer to help me on my way will be great.
Thanks

shanew · 24-08-2012 03:04PM

if they married in 1883 and were of full age then you need to search for parish records to find possible baptisms - you usually need a fairly detailed location for them to do this - ideally the name of the parish or town they lived

I presume this is your Elizabeth : http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Pembroke_West/Havelock_Square/15733/

Church of Ireland - she is listed as born Co. Wicklow c1859

Shane

shanew · 24-08-2012 06:09PM

re Elizabeth's father... I see just one Samuel Price listed in Griffith's in Co. Wicklow - he's located in Ballinashinagh townland near to Rathdrum, with a house and no land. This record is dated 1854.

Might be worth following up...

Shane

Neevy1 · 26-08-2012 02:24PM

Hi Shane
Yes indeed this is her at Havlock Sq.
She seems to have moved around in a small area, her 4 children being born at 54/53/32 Charlemont St. 3 only surviving to adulthood.
She ended her days being nursed by her daughter Mary (May) in May's home in Cabra.
Where she repeatedly cried out in pain to be brought back to Drummartin House.
She is also buried in Mount Jerome in the same grave as her Husband and children.

N

Neevy1 · 26-08-2012 02:39PM

Just a small note here Shane
Jane Tutty born in Wicklow married in 1874 to Joseph Vance.

Neevy1 · 26-08-2012 02:41PM

Hi again Shane I was responding to some questions raised in earlier posts and did a quick reply without realising I should use the quote function...new to site still learning thanks for understanding..

Census Inconsistencies 1901-1911

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