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Internship scheme offers 5,000 work placements to people on the dole

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Comments

  • #1652
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    yore wrote: »
    Have I claimed the scheme was immune to abuse? No, I've mentioned it many times but mentioned that anyone who was aware of an abuse can just report it.

    The fact that these schemes allow tesco,supermacs,and hewlitt packard,and aerlingus to hire really says something to me,that they are okay with big profit making machines chugging out free workers and replacing them with even more free workers..

    A cooling off period of six months is not a strong enough deterrent from those not serious about the scheme,those who want to abuse it would be less likely to avail of the scheme if for example they had to as a prerequiement,to hire (lets just say 40%(it doesnt have to be 40 either it could be less like 30) of those interns,they would be less likely to take them on just like that..

    Now if i agreed to partake in this abuse,as a free labour worker,i would be non verbally agreeing to this abuse,so if i just reported it lets say as i was about to finish or after finishing,i wouldnt be taken seriously..


  • #1653
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    yore wrote: »
    To my mind, the jobsbridge is an attempt at a stimulus package

    To an employers mind it could be seen as a way to use a revolving door of free workers,i guess its all about perception and where youre coming from on it..:o

    Its hardly a stimulus package if its not being followed up and nipped and tweaked here and there,joan burton seems to think its fine,eventhough there was a less than 50 % hiring rate on it(400/7000),maybe she thinks thats not bad,then again her lifes not that bad she doesnt worry about water,household charges and all that other stuff bothering poor joe public..


  • #1654
    yore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭yore


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    The fact that these schemes allow tesco,supermacs,and hewlitt packard,and aerlingus to hire really says something to me,that they are okay with big profit making machines chugging out free workers and replacing them with even more free workers..

    A cooling off period of six months is not a strong enough deterrent from those not serious about the scheme,those who want to abuse it would be less likely to avail of the scheme if for example they had to as a prerequiement,to hire (lets just say 40%(it doesnt have to be 40 either it could be less like 30) of those interns,they would be less likely to take them on just like that..

    Now if i agreed to partake in this abuse,as a free labour worker,i would be non verbally agreeing to this abuse,so if i just reported it lets say as i was about to finish or after finishing,i wouldnt be taken seriously..

    To your first point, I already noted that if I was in charge of the scheme, I would be begging those large companies to take on the interns.

    For your second point, there is a limit to the numbers of interns that you can have. It's related to the number of paid employees. The intern cannot be taking or replacing an employed position. If you enforce the conditions that the employer must hire extra staff you are
    1) Making it implicitly allowed for an expanding employer to replace otherwise fully employed people
    2) Severely limiting the number of companies who can take someone on and defeating the purpose of the scheme.

    For your final point, if you leave an internship, aren't offered the job purely on the fact that they are going to take on another intern to do that position, you'd be fairly well listened to if you reported back to jobsbridge that the employer had taken on someone else to do your job.


  • #1655
    yore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭yore


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    To an employers mind it could be seen as a way to use a revolving door of free workers,i guess its all about perception and where youre coming from on it..:o

    Its hardly a stimulus package if its not being followed up and nipped and tweaked here and there,joan burton seems to think its fine,eventhough there was a less than 50 % hiring rate on it(400/7000),maybe she thinks thats not bad,then again her lifes not that bad she doesnt worry about water,household charges and all that other stuff bothering poor joe public..

    I grew up in the 80s. I remember that even as kids we used to joke about getting a job on the council. Because people would get jobs with the council via contacts and political reasons etc. just to get them off the dole. Our understanding, even as kids (and perhaps unfairly) was that they just sat on their holes all day doing SFA. There is still the perception round my way that a job in the council is a handy job

    At least in the private sector, they might be put to good use and learn productive things


  • #1656
    Born to Die
    Closed Accounts Posts: 830 ✭✭✭Born to Die


    At this stage ye could take it to PM. :)


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  • #1657
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    ''For your final point, if you leave an internship, aren't offered the job purely on the fact that they are going to take on another intern to do that position, you'd be fairly well listened to if you reported back to jobsbridge that the employer had taken on someone else to do your job.''

    Ok fair enough ..

    first you have to prove that,and second its going to be hard to prove if you live far away from your internship..

    Ill tell you this much,i had a situation where i was being unfairly treated at my ce work,and the opening line of a FAS letter which i got back(a very generic looking one),''was its not within their remit'',ie the supervisor i was complaining was not their responsiblity..They completely washed their hands of the situation..

    Im sure they have a lot of scenarios well worked out if someone does come forward to complain..

    I think the only positive thing this JOBBRIDGE thing did was get Labour going on the right to work drive..I think that is something i would get involved in..


  • #1658
    yore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭yore


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    ''For your final point, if you leave an internship, aren't offered the job purely on the fact that they are going to take on another intern to do that position, you'd be fairly well listened to if you reported back to jobsbridge that the employer had taken on someone else to do your job.''

    Ok fair enough ..

    first you have to prove that,and second its going to be hard to prove if you live far away from your internship..

    Ill tell you this much,i had a situation where i was being unfairly treated at my ce work,and the opening line of a FAS letter which i got back(a very generic looking one),''was its not within their remit'',ie the supervisor i was complaining was not their responsiblity..They completely washed their hands of the situation..

    Im sure they have a lot of scenarios well worked out if someone does come forward to complain..

    I think the only positive thing this JOBBRIDGE thing did was get Labour going on the right to work drive..I think that is something i would get involved in..


    Well if they take on an intern as a receptionist, they can't go in straight away for another receptionist. They could however look for say a marketing assistant to do marketing stuff. however if you apply for that position and are then told that you are to sit on the front desk and answer phones, you are probably going to leave.


    If one intern leaves, then it can probably be explained away. If the employer has a history of it, it's going to bite them in the arse. Plus it's a hassle to get new staff up to speed. An employer is not going to want to waste resources having to train someone for the job if it is likely they might just f$^k off. and it is more likely that they will f$^k off if the job isn't as advertised


  • #1659
    yore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭yore


    Born to Die wrote: »
    At this stage ye could take it to PM. :)

    Then you'd miss out on all the fun!


  • #1660
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    ''Well if they take on an intern as a receptionist, they can't go in straight away for another receptionist.''

    In that scenario what they could do is wait in the cooling off period and just hire another,and if thats what they are doing(highly likely)then the schemes know what they are at..
    Another thing they could try is just hire a temp for six months to fill the stop gap..While wait until they get back on the intern scheme list again..


  • #1661
    John.Icy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭John.Icy


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    Its all dead money,the FAS,JOBBRIDGE,TUS,SOLAS,ALL THE WELFARE QUANGOS AMOUNT TO DEAD MONEY,THEY GET PAID BY GOVERNMENT,AND NO TAX BACK MEANING ITS EXPENSE,AND IT DOESNT SEE ANY MONEY BACK EITHER WHICH IS WORSE IT MEANS THESE PROFIT GUZZLING COMPANIES CHOOSE NOT TO HIRE(EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW THE LIKES OF TESCO,HEWLITT PACKARD,AND AERLINGUS CAN WELL AFFORD),DO YOU HONESTLY THINK A INTERNSHIP TO WIPE TABLES IS UPSKILLING?THINK AGAIN,ALL THESE GRADUATES,AND NON GRADUATES ARE BEING EXPLOITED THEY ARE NOT SEEN AS INDIVIDUAL GRADUATES,BEING PAID,THEY ARE MERELY SEEN AS A MEANS TO MAKE PROFIT(BY ABUSING THEM,AND USING THE ''JOBS SCHEME OR AS I LIKE TO CALL IT THE UNEMPLOYMENT SCHEME,AS A REVOVLING DOOR SYSTEM OF FREEBIES,ITS A SLAVE LABOUR SCAM A JOB BLOCKER) FOR SOME MONEY GRUBBING MACHINE..

    AND HOW IS SOCIETY GETTING A RETURN TELL ME IF THEY WONT EMPLOY THEM AFTER?REMEMBER,ONLY 400/7000 INTERNSHIPS WERE EMPLOYED,AND THATS AT THE FIRST ROLL OUT,THESE COMPANIES ARE ARROGANT AND DIDNT EVEN SEEM EAGER TO CREATE THE RIGHT IMPRESSION AT THE FIRST STOP..

    I bloody love it when people get legit angry and bang down the cap locks and use bold. :D

    IT REALLY MAKES POSTS MORE INTERESTING.

    Oh wait, it makes me scroll violently down the page.


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  • #1662
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    ''The unemployed should start fighting back. There is an opportunity to do so at the Labour Party Join the Right To Work bus to Galway and let Burton hear your voice. Text JOBS to 0872604143 to get involved with the Right To Work protests.''

    http://www.swp.ie/content/ms-brutal%E2%80%99s-attack-welfare


  • #1663
    yore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭yore


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    ''Well if they take on an intern as a receptionist, they can't go in straight away for another receptionist.''

    In that scenario what they could do is wait in the cooling off period and just hire another,and if thats what they are doing(highly likely)then the schemes know what they are at..
    Another thing they could try is just hire a temp for six months to fill the stop gap..While wait until they get back on the intern scheme list again..


    Do you realise how difficult it is for employers/managers to run an organisation with a high turnover of staff? It is often not easy to train up and replace people. Never mind the operational risk that high staff turnover entails.

    A fella I worked with went a bit mental about 6 months ago and got fired/resigned. Management still haven't replaced him.
    It's an enormous logistical process for them to go through.


  • #1664
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    Just reading back...
    yore wrote: »
    EDIT: win-win implies both side gain!!
    :eek:

    Yes:rolleyes: i know what win win means,i just dont think that the interns/ce workers are the winners,the only beneficiaries seem to be FAS / JOBBRIDGE(and their getting a bad reputation at that) and the big multinational that takes your work for free,again the hiring rate is very poor with 400/7000 being hired,at the first roll out(whats it going to be like when the roll it out fully i cringe to think)and they dont say in what capacity either,some have even been taken on with no pay after the cessation of these schemes..


    ''Do you realise how difficult it is for employers/managers to run an organisation with a high turnover of staff? It is often not easy to train up and replace people. Never mind the operational risk that high staff turnover entails.''

    Theres practically no risk if they dont have to pay,they are getting free workers,there not paying anything wherse the cost of risk?The are now fully subsidised by these schemes..


  • #1665
    yore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭yore


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    Just reading back...

    :eek:

    Yes:rolleyes: i know what win win means,i just dont think that the interns/ce workers are the winners,the only beneficiaries seem to be FAS / JOBBRIDGE(and their getting a bad reputation at that) and the big multinational that takes your work for free,again the hiring rate is very poor with 400/7000 being hired,at the first roll out(whats it going to be like when the roll it out fully i cringe to think)and they dont say in what capacity either,some have even been taken on with no pay after the cessation of these schemes..


    ''Do you realise how difficult it is for employers/managers to run an organisation with a high turnover of staff? It is often not easy to train up and replace people. Never mind the operational risk that high staff turnover entails.''

    Theres practically no risk if they dont have to pay,they are getting free workers,there not paying anything wherse the cost of risk?The are now fully subsidised by these schemes..

    There are huge operational risks to high staff turnover. You can lose far far more from what staff do, than what you pay them.

    Here is an extreme example of a recent failure to adequately monitor operational risk
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/12/us-jpmorgan-trading-idUSBRE8491H020120512

    I guarantee you that that fella wasn't getting paid 2.1 billion yet he cost the company that!!

    Think of more down to earth matters though. a new person can make mistakes which cost you customers and money. And there are lots of jobs, such as sales types jobs where customers prefer to be dealing with the same faces over and over again. Where would you prefer to go for a soup and sandwich - the local cafe where you will be served by, and have a chat with Mary who has worked there for years or the faceless chain where you have a different person serving you every time.


  • #1666
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,079 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    lostboy wrote: »
    thread is very tldr so ive skipped some of it, can someone explain to me though how, taking someone on the dole and employing them for 6-9 months creates unemployment?

    Why pay for staff when they state will?

    Concrete examples of jobs being displaced have been posted throughout this thread. The really obvious ones are the jobs that would never in a million years require a 9 month internship such as toilet cleaners, waiting staff, till operators & assembly line jobs:
    untitled-28.jpg

    sew.jpg


    fu.jpg

    Then you have jobs that require qualifications where previously companies employed graduates they can now employ them for 9 months for free. An internship becomes another barrier to entry to the workforce.


  • #1667
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,079 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BASHIR wrote: »
    Tbh I'm doing one of these internships so excuse my bias. I feel like a winner, because after college I was facing the two scenarios. Going on the dole with the very slim chance of finding a proper paid graduate position, I had no experience in my field. Or emigration which I really did not want to do. I'm glad I done it now.

    I can see the problems people have the supermacs tesco's etc getting in interns. tbh its bull**** I have worked in mcDonalds when I was 16 years old ya don't need 6-9 months to learn how to work there.

    But I also see the absolutely fantastic experience a person can achieve when they get the right one, and not taken advantage of.

    I'm split on the success of the whole program, but if I give my opinion it is that the person should take some responsibility for yourself. No employer is obliged to give you a paid job. If you feel you are been exploited quit there is absolutely no obligation on you to continue. You do not owe the employer a thing. make the internship work for you. Just my two cents

    Thats all well and good but you should have been taken on under probation and paid by the company not by the state.

    When I finished my course I applied for a job with a mining company in Donegal and they offered an internship. I said feck that, I do exploration and no way would it be ok for someone paid by the state to find a company an ore body. To hell with that. I`m in Australia and am being paid. I will never return to Ireland while so much is wrong with it. I never want to raise children in a place where working is something you do for "the experience" and not for pay.

    You work to live not for the craic.


  • #1668
    yore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭yore


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Thats all well and good but you should have been taken on under probation and paid by the company not by the state.

    When I finished my course I applied for a job with a mining company in Donegal and they offered an internship. I said feck that, I do exploration and no way would it be ok for someone paid by the state to find a company an ore body. To hell with that. I`m in Australia and am being paid. I will never return to Ireland while so much is wrong with it. I never want to raise children in a place where working is something you do for "the experience" and not for pay.

    You work to live not for the craic.

    Grand, and when you are raising your kids over there and they hit 15/16/17/18 don't let them be taken advantage of by letting them work odd jobs or serving in a shop. Teach them that all that matters is the money that they get for doing the job because it's likely that those skills are easily learned and they are probably not going to need to know how to ring up a cash register or sweep a floor for work when they get older.

    Oh, and you applied for the job after you finished your course....... mining is the type of thing that strikes me as something that you'd need to have practical experience of. Sure you can have all the safety certs and academic know how about everything, but I'm sure that actually physically doing it is a different matter. I don't think you could read a book on how to lay blocks and then go straight out and expect to be able to build a house.

    How many proven "ore bodies" had you found before the mining company offered you an internship?


  • #1669
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,079 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    yore wrote: »
    Grand, and when you are raising your kids over there and they hit 15/16/17/18 don't let them be taken advantage of by letting them work odd jobs or serving in a shop. Teach them that all that matters is the money that they get for doing the job because it's likely that those skills are easily learned and they are probably not going to need to know how to ring up a cash register or sweep a floor for work when they get older.
    Why would I do that? Thats a strange thing to say
    yore wrote: »
    Oh, and you applied for the job after you finished your course....... mining is the type of thing that strikes me as something that you'd need to have practical experience of. Sure you can have all the safety certs and academic know how about everything, but I'm sure that actually physically doing it is a different matter. I don't think you could read a book on how to lay blocks and then go straight out and expect to be able to build a house.

    How many proven "ore bodies" had you found before the mining company offered you an internship?

    Yes mining like every other job needs experience to get good at it. I`m gettin that here and being paid. Seems to be a foreign concept to you


  • #1670
    yore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭yore


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why would I do that? Thats a strange thing to say

    Because you said
    I never want to raise children in a place where working is something you do for "the experience" and not for pay.

    Yes mining like every other job needs experience to get good at it. I`m gettin that here and being paid. Seems to be a foreign concept to you

    No. There's a concept called supply and demand. a mining company is not going to give you a start in Ireland if you have no experience and there are plenty of people with experience looking for the same job. In Australia, by all accounts, there is a current boom in the mining industry. And a shortage of workers.
    And here's another concept for you - I assume you've been there a while and are now experienced and efficient at your job. If a fella finishing up your college course this Summer landed with your company next month and got a start, do you think he would be as efficient and effective as you currently are right from his very first day? And he wouldn't need anyone watching out for him or training/explaining to him?

    Think back to the middle of the "celtic tiger" years. You might wait for weeks to get a tradesman in to do a job. Now I'd bet you could have a carpenter in next week to do a job if you wanted. You'd have your choice and would probably choose one with a lot of experience or a good reputation. Whereas 5 years ago you might have been delighted just to get anyone in to do it.


  • #1671
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,079 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    yore wrote: »
    Because you said


    When I was a teenager & later in my 20s during college I worked many minimum wage jobs. For the money not for the fun of it.

    If we simply worked for the privilege and not for the money then your looking at a situation no better than communism.

    yore wrote: »
    No. There's a concept called supply and demand. a mining company is not going to give you a start in Ireland if you have no experience and there are plenty of people with experience looking for the same job. In Australia, by all accounts, there is a current boom in the mining industry. And a shortage of workers.
    And here's another concept for you - I assume you've been there a while and are now experienced and efficient at your job. If a fella finishing up your college course this Summer landed with your company next month and got a start, do you think he would be as efficient and effective as you currently are right from his very first day? And he wouldn't need anyone watching out for him or training/explaining to him?

    Think back to the middle of the "celtic tiger" years. You might wait for weeks to get a tradesman in to do a job. Now I'd bet you could have a carpenter in next week to do a job if you wanted. You'd have your choice and would probably choose one with a lot of experience or a good reputation. Whereas 5 years ago you might have been delighted just to get anyone in to do it.


    You mention supply and demand and if you know anything about it then you`ll know that supplying companies with free labour will not create jobs only a demand for more interns which will crowd out real jobs


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  • #1672
    Born to Die
    Closed Accounts Posts: 830 ✭✭✭Born to Die


    Jesus Yore, you are still going. Fair play you are a person of conviction. Still wrong though but your devotion to it has to be admired. You would make a fantastic internee.

    :)


  • #1673
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    yep the free labour exploiters would love yore :D


  • #1674
    lostboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 140 ✭✭lostboy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why pay for staff when they state will?

    Concrete examples of jobs being displaced have been posted throughout this thread. The really obvious ones are the jobs that would never in a million years require a 9 month internship such as toilet cleaners, waiting staff, till operators & assembly line jobs:
    untitled-28.jpg

    sew.jpg


    fu.jpg

    Then you have jobs that require qualifications where previously companies employed graduates they can now employ them for 9 months for free. An internship becomes another barrier to entry to the workforce.
    yes but as my OP said, how is this creating unemployment. i.e people who are not employed


  • #1675
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    lostboy wrote: »
    yes but as my OP said, how is this creating unemployment. i.e people who are not employed


    These people could be potential employees,but for the fact that lets say every job you have looked up has ce or intern attached to it,thats a job(what could be a paid job) occupied by free labour schemes..

    Ie tescos should be employing paid staff,but dont,because these schemes are wrongfully available to them,eg they can well afford to hire but dont.


  • #1676
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,449 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    I think there is a lot of abuse of Jobbridge and it's not being monitored correctly.

    FRS Recruitment in Limerick have advertised on Irishjobs.ie for a Trainee Recruitment Consultant with the paragraph:

    "At the end of the internship, after extensive training here in Frs Recruitment we will offer a permanent job to successful trainees. (As a huge amount of time will be spent training the intern, we are only considering trainees who intend on making a long term career with us in the Recruitment profession and will support interns every step of the way)"

    http://www.irishjobs.ie/Jobs/Trainee-Recruiter-Jobbridge-6769958.aspx

    From the above it looks like they have a vacant position but will be using jobbridge as a training period.

    On the Jobbridge site the job ad doesn't have the above paragraph but in it's place reads:

    "On successful completion (9 months or sooner, if applicant excels in training), the intern may be offered a permanent role as a professional IT Recruitment Consultant ."

    Jobbridge Ref: INTE-679669

    Jobbridge have been made aware of the ad on Irishjobs.ie but nothing has been done.


  • #1677
    lostboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 140 ✭✭lostboy


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    These people could be potential employees,but for the fact that lets say every job you have looked up has ce or intern attached to it,thats a job(what could be a paid job) occupied by free labour schemes..

    Ie tescos should be employing paid staff,but dont,because these schemes are wrongfully available to them,eg they can well afford to hire but dont.
    it is still employing someone for 6-9 months though, to say it is creating unemployment or taking jobs is pure wrong, for every employment position this takes away, someone becomes employed.

    i bet you some companies are using this to hire more staff than they would have in the first place if they had to pay them, even if they did turn over 9000 million euro last year.


  • #1678
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,079 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    lostboy wrote: »
    yes but as my OP said, how is this creating unemployment. i.e people who are not employed

    It crowds out real jobs


  • #1679
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,079 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    lostboy wrote: »
    it is still employing someone for 6-9 months though, to say it is creating unemployment or taking jobs is pure wrong, for every employment position this takes away, someone becomes employed.

    i bet you some companies are using this to hire more staff than they would have in the first place if they had to pay them, even if they did turn over 9000 million euro last year.


    WOW !

    If you want people to work for their dole then no problem just not for private enterprise unless you want communism?


  • #1680
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    lostboy wrote: »
    it is still employing someone for 6-9 months though, to say it is creating unemployment or taking jobs is pure wrong, for every employment position this takes away, someone becomes employed.

    i bet you some companies are using this to hire more staff than they would have in the first place if they had to pay them, even if they did turn over 9000 million euro last year.


    what part of creating unemployment do you not understand?It takes away what could be a paid job advertised,instead it has ce/intern attached to it,and whos to say they wont use it as a revolving door system??even in the celtic tiger they took away jobs(back then it was from the marginalised in our communities,now though its everyone,they even have tesco and supermacs involved in this scandal)..


    you say(in an earlier post) there is a cooling off period of 6 months,right theres 12 months in every year,so lets just say all they need in the year is christmas staff,there only going to hire from the winter period for free workers and the rest of the year back to the skeleton staff..

    in the end they are abusing the scheme to meet their profit target..


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  • #1681
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,079 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Check this out
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056636577
    MADNESS


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