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Property Price Floor

  • 08-05-2012 12:07PM
    #1
    Posts: 5,079 ✭✭✭


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0508/nama-launches-pilot-scheme-to-protect-homebuyers.html
    The product, the agency hopes, will protect buyers from decreases of up to 20% in the value of their property over the next five years.

    The pilot phase of the programme will see the initiative available on more than 115 houses located in 12 developments in Dublin Meath and Cork.

    Three banks - Bank of Ireland, AIB (through their subsidiary EBS) and Permanent TSB bank will participate in the initiative.

    NAMA says that potential buyers interested in houses available under the scheme should approach one of the nominated banks

    Under the scheme, a purchaser would seek a mortgage of €180,000 and pay a deposit of €20,000 on a property linked to a NAMA loan for sale for €200,000.

    NAMA then agrees to defer the payment of 20% of the current value of the property, in this case €40,000. Should the property be worth €200,000 or more after five years the buyer's repayments will continue to cover the €40,000.




    Doing their best to make property a one way bet and they have no problem using your money to do so.




    I ask simply, where will it all end?


«1

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0508/nama-launches-pilot-scheme-to-protect-homebuyers.html






    Doing their best to make property a one way bet and they have no problem using your money to do so.




    I ask simply, where will it all end?


    They never give up with thier proeprty obsession.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    Crazy idea, why don't they just let the crash happen and be done with it, I can't be holding out forever to buy a house:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 185 ✭✭superluck


    I think it's fantastic the government are buying overpriced property from developers. Once the loses are passed onto the tax payer in the form of austerity and tax increases, the government can place those properties back on the market at reasonable prices. And shure, if the same people that caused this mess want to buy back the property later, it's no problem.Great idea.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    ya i agree there is an unhealthy obsession with property here in ireland - an over reliance on it ,and now there itching to drive back up prices again where there going to price people who now cannot afford out of the market..

    can they think of anything else to get our economy booming like creating more jobs?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,808 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    /head desk

    /head desk

    /head desk


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,582 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    Lessons unlearned.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Speechless. A Junior cert maths student could see the problem with this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    Does this not discriminate agains't those who can't afford the current prices :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    They are willing yo stoop to any low to re-ignite the property bubble.
    The worrying thing is that they are answerable to nobody:mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    Anyone know if this will result in a massive fall in price of non nama properties:eek:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    I think people are being somewhat harsh on NAMA with regard to this effort..

    1) People want NAMA to secure the best market price for property it controls
    2) People want NAMA to liquidate the property it controls, but they don't want a firesale on prices and NAMA racking up a huge losses.
    3) There a likely a lot of people who intend to buy property but are holding out to ensure prices don't drop further, and this is causing further stagnation (and price drops), which makes 1 & 2 very difficult.

    This plan lessens the potential impact of 3.. which allows 1 & 2 to happen..

    While it's not the best plan possible, I don't see it as an attempt to create a new property bubble (or any other similar claim being thrown about). It's an attempt to break the cycle of uncertainty, which may allow some normality to return to the market for usable/required properties. If this happens then NAMA can liquidate some of these assets.. Its 115 houses as part of the pilot, so no major commitment either way.. but we may learn something useful.

    Doing nothing so far.. has achieved .. nothing..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭GetWithIt


    rodento wrote: »
    Does this not discriminate agains't those who can't afford the current prices :mad:
    Not really. This only applies to NAMA properties.
    115 houses located in 12 developments in Dublin Meath and Cork

    What do you think the effect of this will be on non-NAMA properties nearby?

    Which property would you buy? How much would the non-Nama property need to drop it's price in order for you to purchase it? 20% maybe?

    Either these properties are currently 20% overpriced or the net effect will be to immediately reduce the rest of the market by 20%. Most likely the first option.

    This is what's known as marketing.

    There is no net loss to the taxpayer if the property drops from it's sale price. We've already taken that loss. What NAMA are doing are effectively getting an interest free loan from the buyer for 4(?) years with an option on the first 20% of any profit (actually 25%) made in the period.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,192 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    The news today said that NAMA introduced this because "there was no demand for the property on their books". WTF? This property was not made available to the public. Can I make it clear to NAMA that I will buy anything on their books if it is made available at the right price, instead now as a taxpayer I'm subsidising purchasers of overpriced property.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    superluck wrote: »
    I think it's fantastic the government are buying overpriced property from developers. Once the loses are passed onto the tax payer in the form of austerity and tax increases, the government can place those properties back on the market at reasonable prices. And shure, if the same people that caused this mess want to buy back the property later, it's no problem.Great idea.


    And there my friends is the whole concept of Nama in the first place.!!
    Good post superluck.;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,808 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Just took a look at on-line listings for the Dublin properties and wouldn't touch any of them with a bargepole...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,493 ✭✭✭creedp


    superluck wrote: »
    I think it's fantastic the government are buying overpriced property from developers. Once the loses are passed onto the tax payer in the form of austerity and tax increases, the government can place those properties back on the market at reasonable prices. And shure, if the same people that caused this mess want to buy back the property later, it's no problem.Great idea.


    That's capitalism Irish style at its best! When the curve is up the entrepreneurs make a killing because of the risks associated with putting their money into creating wealth and jobs for the masses but of course when the curve turns downwards the State must intervene and socialise the entpreneurial risk .. so now its our money. Best of both worlds.

    Its funy then when there are proposals from the Govt to intervene to stimulate the property market the capitalist jump up and down saying that the Govt should stay out and let the market find its equilibrium. Presumably this could mean that the same (busted) entrepreneurs who were bailed out by NAMA (i.e. positive Govt intervention!) can get back in and buy up same property at 'market prices' to make a killing (Mark II) down the road. Its a great game really!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,119 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    Surely it is a property price ceiling :confused:
    Nama sets a "fair value" price, therefore all units in the area that are above this mark are effectively overvalued.
    In effect this Nama move creates a maximum price limit ie. a ceiling.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 192 ✭✭paddy0090


    creedp wrote: »
    ...NAMA (i.e. positive Govt intervention!)

    Honestly:confused:

    The faster a market bottoms out the faster it recovers. Nama seems determined to stop this, and it's actions are distorting the market. The govt. didn't intervene to help the wider public or the property market, they intervened to bailout the banks(bad property loans). IMO the side effects will be negative.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    creedp wrote: »
    That's capitalism Irish style at its best! When the curve is up the entrepreneurs make a killing because of the risks associated with putting their money into creating wealth and jobs for the masses but of course when the curve turns downwards the State must intervene and socialise the entpreneurial risk .. so now its our money. Best of both worlds.
    Just like the banks' old motto: privatise the profit, mutualise the risk.
    This has come to mean "nationalise the risk" of course. Can't get more mutual than that!
    Scrap NAMA please.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 559 ✭✭✭Amberman


    Welease wrote: »

    Doing nothing so far.. has achieved .. nothing..

    Well, doing nothing has acheived a few things:

    1. Lets the market establish a non-centrally manipulated clearing price for property to allow the market to reach a bottom and recover faster. In the UK, prices dropped 2.4% after they removed the stamp duty giveaway. All these givernment actions typically do is pull forward demand and string out the slide over a longer period.
    2. Doing nothing let people who were priced out during the artificial boom get a house at the present clearing rate
    3. Doing nothing typically saves tax payers money from hair brained interventions like this one.

    Doing nothing is what governments are supposed to do in free markets.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭NakedNNettles


    creedp wrote: »
    When the curve is up the entrepreneurs make a killing because of the risks associated with putting their money into creating wealth and jobs for the masses.

    I wouldn't really associate the style of developers we have come to know as being entrepreneurs, they have in more in common with three card trick men.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    rodento wrote: »
    Crazy idea, why don't they just let the crash happen and be done with it, I can't be holding out forever to buy a house:rolleyes:

    How much do you want/expect to pay for a house?

    This is not going to suddenly overinflate the market. Nama are putting at present 150 houses onto market like this and has about 1500 houses on there books I believe. It looks like that most cities do not have a stock of completed houses in hand. Will there a sudden glut ogf houses on the market.
    Houses have fell 50% approx how much do people expect them to fall if they fall another 20% will some people still expect them another 20%.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭BornToKill


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Just like the banks' old motto: privatise the profit, mutualise the risk.
    This has come to mean "nationalise the risk" of course. Can't get more mutual than that!
    Scrap NAMA please.

    Can you explain maybe how the scrapping would work? Are you intending to write off the €32bn NAMA paid for the loans or do you think these should transfer back again to each bank? What would scrapping NAMA achieve do you think?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,493 ✭✭✭creedp


    paddy0090 wrote: »
    Honestly:confused:

    The faster a market bottoms out the faster it recovers. Nama seems determined to stop this, and it's actions are distorting the market. The govt. didn't intervene to help the wider public or the property market, they intervened to bailout the banks(bad property loans). IMO the side effects will be negative.

    My point was that NAMA was a positive Govt intervention from the NAMA rescued entrepreneurs perspective in that it allowed them to offload their failed investments while protecting their other assets to the greatest extent possible. However, these same [bust!] entrepreneurs/free marketeers would now like a no intervention policy to crash prices in order to get in at the bottom of the market. Its funny how Govt intervention is necessary in some instances to assist the market but then when it suits the Govt should stay out and let the market do its thing! Let's be clear though that NAMA was certainly not a positive intervention for the ordinary taxpayer who will be paying for it for a long time, certainly long after the busted entrepreneurs are back in the good time again


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,493 ✭✭✭creedp


    I wouldn't really associate the style of developers we have come to know as being entrepreneurs, they have in more in common with three card trick men.


    Im sorry to keep repeating the word 'entrepreneurs' but I was sick of listening to that term being ascribed to our home grown world class developers during the good auld Celtic Tigers times - "the Irish are buying up New York", whereas now they are seen as something altogther different- we are a fickle race!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,493 ✭✭✭creedp


    How much do you want/expect to pay for a house?

    This is not going to suddenly overinflate the market. Nama are putting at present 150 houses onto market like this and has about 1500 houses on there books I believe. It looks like that most cities do not have a stock of completed houses in hand. Will there a sudden glut ogf houses on the market.
    Houses have fell 50% approx how much do people expect them to fall if they fall another 20% will some people still expect them another 20%.


    I think at this time some people think the market price should be 100% lower that it was at the peak! It would be fantastic of course as then we wouldn't need the banks at all. Problem solved and everybody happy


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    Read this gushing nonsense from the Independant

    http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/nama-homes-come-with-celtic-tiger-luxuries-but-recessionproof-prices-3103858.html

    IF NAMA's deferred payment scheme is designed to get nervous buyers off the fence and down to their mortgage lender, then the houses viewed by the Irish Independent yesterday should do just that.
    The scheme, which effectively removes a chunk of the negative-equity risk of buying a new home, would appear to be a fair deal for both cautious consumers and for developers keen to offload stagant housing stock.
    The only catch for the prospective house hunter is whether you want to buy a home in one of the limited number of developments included in the pilot phase of 115 units in Cork, Dublin and Meath.
    Take Loughmore Square on Killeen Castle estate, just outside Dunshaughlin, Co Meath, for instance.
    These are homes with Celtic Tiger-type specifications at recession-proof prices. The three-bed showhouse, which is priced at €320,000, boasts three en [COLOR=#009900 !important]suite[/COLOR] bedrooms, with Villeroy and Boch sinks and baths, while the kitchen includes fully integrated white goods as standard, along with granite tops and a Miele oven.
    The showhouse, which measures 149 sq metres is fully furnished, with all contents included in the sale price and features other lavish extras such as surround sound and mood lighting. The kitchen alone would cost an estimated €50,000 to install.
    But if the bank won't let you reach that far, you could opt for a identically sized three-bed townhouse with standard fittings and for €275,000. They still throw in all the white goods and granite surfaces in the kitchen.
    The development overlooks the Jack Nicklaus-designed golf course and has a wooded walk, fishing lakes and gated security. In the same area, a three-bed bungalow in its own grounds is selling for €310,000 and a four-bed detached home is priced at €285,000.
    In Carrickmines, south Dublin, Douglas Newman Good is offering three- and four-bed townhouses from €275,000, through the deferred-payment scheme.
    Pearse Construction built the 271 homes in the Carrickmines Manor development just over four years ago. About 70 failed to sell at price tags which dropped from a high of €795,000 for four bedrooms in 2007 -- and were rented out. It is those that are now available.
    Upstairs are three double bedrooms, all en suite, while downstairs is a relatively small kitchen, spacious [COLOR=#009900 !important]living room[/COLOR] and a courtyard area to the rear.
    But, with the four-bed, 138 sq metre townhouse priced at €295,000, these homes compare very favourably with other similar houses available in the area.
    A three-bed home in a nearby development is priced at €425,000.
    According to DNG senior negotiator Gina Kennedy, the aim of the new scheme is to encourage fearful buyers to take the plunge.
    "It is a lack of consumer confidence which has been key, although that has picked up somewhat already. But there is a whole section of people who have been sitting on the fence for the past four or five years," she said.
    Padraig Sherry of Sherry Fitzgerald, which is handling the Killeen development, does not believe the scheme will skew the market because it is too limited in scale.
    "I welcome any initiative which is aimed at stimulating a stagnant market but the most important element is liquidity. The banks have to start lending to people," he said.
    Meanwhile, in Cork, where 62 of the properties are located, Rowan Hill in the plush Mount Oval development should also prove a strong draw.
    The estate has its own commercial centre and there are multiple schools and creches nearby. Just minutes from the city's main South Link access route, and the city centre, the townhouses tick most of the boxes for first-time buyers.
    However, just 10 two-bed townhouses are available under the NAMA scheme -- the more popular three- and four-bed homes have not yet been included.


    Absolutely sickening. This reads more like a press release from an Estate Agent than an impartial artcile in a national newspaper.

    And tbh the prices being asked are absolutely sickening...Kileen is in the middle of nowhere and carrickimines they're looking for 300 grand for an aprtment.

    This sort of bullshiit shouldnt be allowed to continue..let the market find its own level through market forces and without the intervention of the vested interests,estate agents and national newspapers.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    BornToKill wrote: »
    Can you explain maybe how the scrapping would work? Are you intending to write off the €32bn NAMA paid for the loans or do you think these should transfer back again to each bank? What would scrapping NAMA achieve do you think?
    Precisely. Back to the banks and let them collapse.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    The problem is that it isn't a lack of consumer confidence.

    Consumers have never been more confident that they can get a better deal than what is being offered by waiting a little longer.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,493 ✭✭✭creedp


    thebman wrote: »
    The problem is that it isn't a lack of consumer confidence.

    Consumers have never been more confident that they can get a better deal than what is being offered by waiting a little longer.

    Long may it last I say .. so that the rental market remains strong!


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