Obligatory, wage-affecting performance reviews for teachers - a great idea!

jonseyblub · 02-05-2012 07:32PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I never said anything about primary schools.

My main point was that school children are not mature enough to give an unbiased report good or bad. I did say that my point applied to a large percentage of second level students too but if it makes you feel better substitute 12 year old for 7 year old.

byhookorbycrook · 02-05-2012 07:39PM

There is a huge increase in the number of incidental visits at primary level. In the last 6 years, we have had six dips-so the inspector has been in and ou of the school and two incidentals on top of this.The inspector is no fool, she can spot what is going on and consults with the principal. She told us that all seems satisfactory,thankfully.

The WSE has become less of a dog and pony show, as there is far less notice given-which is how it should be.

Ms.M · 02-05-2012 07:50PM

Partyatmygaff, teachers do not receive any warning of incidental inspections.

An inspector shows up on the day with no prior notification and shadows your classes for the day.

They've only been taking place since the start of this school year as far as I'm aware. One inspector can inspect a different teacher every day so it's relatively cost effective. And it is fairer and provides an accurate idea of a teachers' competencies. They check students' copies (their selection; not the teacher's), they can ask to see lesson plans and schemes of work for the year. They can also check your records of tests, homework, absentees etc and ask about your discipline techniques. This in addition to witnessing your classes themselves.

I think it's working well.
It should be continued and even expanded. I don't see any reason why resources should be directed elsewhere. It is a comprehensive and transparent review system.

queensinead · 02-05-2012 07:51PM

Roadtrippin wrote: »

These are all very good questions and clearly I don't have all the answers. I'm not the HEA.
I think it is a good idea to implement regular appraisals though, for example,
like I suggested above, regular random classroom observations like you have to go through during your HDip should be standard practice as part of the appraisal.
These observations can be done by colleagues or other teachers from partner schools etc. Reports could be sent to the teacher in question first so they get a chance to improve if there is any shortcomings.

Teachers already have "regular appraisals" through a very rigorous inspection process. But for now their wage rate, or their career, does not depend on the result. But I think that is going to change with the Teaching Council

Secondary teachers have Whole School Evaluations where everything, including classroom performance, is checked. Then there are subject inspections where all teachers in a subject area are inspected.
And this year saw the introduction of spot-check inspetions, where an inspector arrives unannounced and randomly inspects teaching. Most schools have had one of the spot-check inspections.
Many schools have had up to three different inspection in this academic year alone.

(Forget about "in my time in school we only had one inspector". The whole inspection system has been overhauled and inspections are very regular)

So the "performance reviews" are in place. The results are uploaded onto the Web. No doubt pay scales will be linked into these inspections in the future.

Powerhouse · 02-05-2012 07:57PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Is that because self-regulation doesn't occur or because they're mostly competent? Jumping to conclusions doesn't help.

I don't know the answer, but I would have thought that the notion that it is in practice far less easy to remove such people than some of the traditional rhetoric allows could at least enter consideration.

I have no difficulty with the idea of not jumping to conclusions if that latitude was also applicable when the weekly attack on teachers is in full swing here.

02-05-2012 08:04PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

If my suggested system was ever implemented it would be managed mainly by the principal and the Department of Education.

What would the principal do?

What would the Department do?

ntlbell · 02-05-2012 08:45PM

doc_17 wrote: »

Of course the conditions that people have to work in shouldn't be relevant to their performance. What was I thinking. I am so sorry for bringing the thread of topic.

harrasment is not isolated to teaching.

Feeona · 02-05-2012 08:53PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

What some students think of you isn't *hugely* important.

If a student's opinion about his/her teacher isn't that important, what's the point in asking for his/her opinion in the first place?

seavill · 02-05-2012 09:57PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

None. The main issue is that they don't occur anywhere near often enough and teachers get notice of inspections which allows them to prepare for the day.

FACTUALLY INCORRECT STATEMENT.

This is true for normal subject or whole school inspections.

Incidental inspections - the inspector turns up at 9am and says I'm going to this class now. Simple as. No notice given.

At most, over my entire time in primary and secondary school I saw eight inspections. Every single time the teacher either tried to bribe the class to be good (No homework if you behave yourselves on the day) or threatened the class with severe punishments.

The inspectorate has increased its remit and number of employees over the past number of years. Along with the introduction of things like MIL and incidental inspections. Years ago was not a common sight, nowadays a much more common thing. This year there have been 4 inspections in our school along with a MIL inspection at the end of last year and 5 subject inspections also last year. You could go years without seeing one however this is less and less common these days compared to when we were young. The only time I ever remember seeing an inspector when I was young was in primary school, never saw one in secondary school

Losing the right to review and possibly giving your teacher a pay rise would be enough of a deterrent I think.

I can't believe that you actually deep down believe that this will actually be the case for all students. I know you are going to argue that other one or two won't make a difference but why set up a system that is so clearly flawed so. If you have no objections to inspectors why not just submit the idea of the government having a huge increase in the numbers of inspectors so problem solved. Each school should then see at least one inspector once a month for different subjects.

Problem students who would do that would be down weighted.
Labelling "problem students" these names are put on a list compiled by the school? the department? who sees this list, where does it go? is it made known to the student population who is not allowed vote. I would love to meet mammy that day we are calling her child a trouble maker.
As for "normal" students we're usually fair when it comes to things like these.
"You saying my son isn't normal"?????

Sounds an awful lot like a Doctor or Pharmacist advising their patients to do something and them completely ignoring the advice being given to them and then blaming the doctor/pharmacist for their health problems. If you know you're not doing anything wrong, it's at best mildly annoying.

If an inspector was called into my class due to bad reports for a particular class group, enough to get an inspector called, but all other class groups no bad reports. I would be raging, not mildly annoyed.
Anyone in any walk of life would be more than "mildly annoyed" when their boss arrives in the door "look a group of your customers believer your are not up to your job so we are going to let them see that we don't trust you either so due to them being vindictive they are going to see an inspector in the back of your class. You will then forever be getting comments about not being up to the job.
This will happen for fact with this proposal.
A school has been in the paper recently with the mention of people not teaching their proper subjects and the possibility of some teachers in that school not being qualified. Teachers in that school have in the past week been questioned by their 1st and 2nd years "are you qualified to teach us" etc. Some of these teachers have been teaching there 10 and 20 years and are fully qualified.
One teacher who has been teaching honors maths in this school for 15 years and is fully qualified to do so. A rumor was started by a student that they are one of the unqualified maths teachers in the school.
This rumor has now gone around the school as "fact" and I had a student from that school whom I know outside of school telling me about this "unqualified teacher for the last 15 years"

They are kids in the end of the day. A rumour is suddenly fact the second they hear it. These things can ruin someones reputation and career.

An inspector that arrive regularly to every teacher no matter how good or bad to check on all of them is a fair and equitable way of doing it. I am not saying that kids should have no input at all into the process.

But your idea of determining whether an inspector arrives at the door or not based on averages from nothing but student ratings is deeply flawed as explained above.

You know your ability and other teachers are more than capable of assessing your ability. What some students think of you isn't *hugely* important.

You could be a bit annoyed with them but as a professional you should be able to leave personal feelings out of the equation where possible.

I can think of many...

I never said anything about primary schools.

s

Roadtrippin · 03-05-2012 01:34PM

queensinead wrote: »

Teachers already have "regular appraisals" through a very rigorous inspection process. But for now their wage rate, or their career, does not depend on the result. But I think that is going to change with the Teaching Council

Secondary teachers have Whole School Evaluations where everything, including classroom performance, is checked. Then there are subject inspections where all teachers in a subject area are inspected.
And this year saw the introduction of spot-check inspetions, where an inspector arrives unannounced and randomly inspects teaching. Most schools have had one of the spot-check inspections.
Many schools have had up to three different inspection in this academic year alone.

(Forget about "in my time in school we only had one inspector". The whole inspection system has been overhauled and inspections are very regular)

So the "performance reviews" are in place. The results are uploaded onto the Web. No doubt pay scales will be linked into these inspections in the future.

Thanks for informing us. This is very interesting. I obviously need to learn a thing or two about the appraisal process that is already in place.

The one thing that is missing so to make it work better is definitely a connection to teacher's wages.

I don't care if this is an unpopular opinion!

It works in the private teaching sector why not in the public?

Roadtrippin · 03-05-2012 01:38PM

golden lane wrote: »

this is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard in my life........we are paying too much to give our kids a basic education......but this is not the answer..

Ha, here's an idea -

How about you actually state your case and don't straight away dismiss.

You wanna have an open discussion I'm all for it!

As I said on earlier pages this post was designed to get people talking about the issue not to say that the suggestion by UK MPs is the solution for everything!!!

I am very tired of people just dismissing things and then not at least saying what they would do instead to improve the teacher appraisal process.

From where I am standing, the system the way it is does NOT WORK VERY WELL.

Mostly in the public sector have you people afraid of performance reviews that affect their wages.

Why is that, I ask? If you are a good teacher what have you to worry about?

Gurgle · 03-05-2012 02:44PM

Roadtrippin wrote: »

From where I am standing, the system the way it is does NOT WORK VERY WELL.

Its difficult to put this in context without more information on where you are standing. Please elaborate.

Are you:
A teacher?
A professional in the private sector with an equivalent education level (i.e. Masters / H.Dip)?
An unskilled /semi-skilled private sector worker?
Educated to similar level and unemployed?
Undereducated / unskilled and unemployed?

And how do you judge whether the system is working?
Purely on the oft broadcast axiom 'our children are crap at science and maths', or have you more information?
Or purely on the other oft broadcast 'THE AVERAGE TEACHER EARNS €50k!!!111!'?

Roadtrippin · 03-05-2012 03:41PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Its difficult to put this in context without more information on where you are standing. Please elaborate.

Are you:
A teacher?
A professional in the private sector with an equivalent education level (i.e. Masters / H.Dip)?
An unskilled /semi-skilled private sector worker?
Educated to similar level and unemployed?
Undereducated / unskilled and unemployed?

And how do you judge whether the system is working?
Purely on the oft broadcast axiom 'our children are crap at science and maths', or have you more information?
Or purely on the other oft broadcast 'THE AVERAGE TEACHER EARNS €50k!!!111!'?

On earlier pages I did divulge some information on what I do and where I come from in terms of views on teaching. I am a part-time teacher in a school and university as well as a researcher in pedagogy and teaching practice.

My perspective is mainly that from where I stand, particularly in languages, results after 10 or more years of learning Irish, for example, are below what I would expect. The question is why? There's several issues that play into this, but one of them being that language teachers are not required to attend any teacher training days...

I could go on and on about why I think regular feedback drives by fellow teachers/inspectors should be connected to wages so there is an incentive for teachers to improve.

Gurgle · 03-05-2012 03:58PM

Roadtrippin wrote: »

I am a part-time teacher in a school and university as well as a researcher in pedagogy and teaching practice.

Cool, your opinion is actually qualified

In the first place, I believe that the majority of teachers are intelligent, well educated professionals who work hard and do their best to get the relevant information into their students heads.

The remaining minority are those who could do the job but can't be bothered, can't do the job because they don't know their subject material, can't do the job because they're crap at explaining stuff to kids.

The first is a management / disciplinary issue. I know that 20 years ago there were teachers like that, and now that my eldest has started secondary I've found out that they're still there. However I believe there has to be something in their contracts that requires them to do the job they're paid for. Everyone involved is culpable for these wasters remaining in classrooms, from the principle to the board of management to the department to the unions.

The second could be mitigated by a system where every teacher must sit the Junior Cert / Leaving Cert every year in every subject they teach. Anything less than an A and they are automatically blocked from teaching that subject.

The third is probably the most difficult to deal with. I've got nothing.

Roadtrippin · 03-05-2012 05:08PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Cool, your opinion is actually qualified

In the first place, I believe that the majority of teachers are intelligent, well educated professionals who work hard and do their best to get the relevant information into their students heads.

The remaining minority are those who could do the job but can't be bothered, can't do the job because they don't know their subject material, can't do the job because they're crap at explaining stuff to kids.

The first is a management / disciplinary issue. I know that 20 years ago there were teachers like that, and now that my eldest has started secondary I've found out that they're still there. However I believe there has to be something in their contracts that requires them to do the job they're paid for. Everyone involved is culpable for these wasters remaining in classrooms, from the principle to the board of management to the department to the unions.

The second could be mitigated by a system where every teacher must sit the Junior Cert / Leaving Cert every year in every subject they teach. Anything less than an A and they are automatically blocked from teaching that subject.

The third is probably the most difficult to deal with. I've got nothing.

Agree with you in every single point you make

We should be boards buddies

byhookorbycrook · 03-05-2012 05:40PM

Gurgle wrote: »

The second could be mitigated by a system where every teacher must sit the Junior Cert / Leaving Cert every year in every subject they teach. Anything less than an A and they are automatically blocked from teaching that subject.

The third is probably the most difficult to deal with. I've got nothing.

Do primary teachers have to get a STEN ten in the Drumcondras then??Sorry, Gurgle,that suggestion is laughable.

Powerhouse · 03-05-2012 07:18PM

Gurgle wrote: »

The second could be mitigated by a system where every teacher must sit the Junior Cert / Leaving Cert every year in every subject they teach. Anything less than an A and they are automatically blocked from teaching that subject.

Not sure which is funnier - the image of the teacher sitting in the corner of the exam hall doing the Junior Cert (incidentally people have no idea how easy these exams would be for teachers teaching the material year in year out!) or the fact that some people agree with you that it is part of the way forward!

Powerhouse · 03-05-2012 07:23PM

Roadtrippin wrote: »

1) My perspective is mainly that from where I stand, particularly in languages, results after 10 or more years of learning Irish, for example, are below what I would expect. The question is why?

2) There's several issues that play into this, but one of them being that language teachers are not required to attend any teacher training days...

1) As you say there may be several reasons. Could one of them be that you might not have exerted yourself or that you were simply not very good at the subject/languages? That happens. I have people in front of me who get the same teaching but fare quite differently in exams.

2) Not sure where you're getting this from but I have been on four teacher-training days in the past 18 months or so, as have all the pther language teachers in my school. You might need to be more sure of your ground on basic issues if you are in the business of educational research.

byhookorbycrook · 03-05-2012 07:48PM

Biggest issue in Irish is the attitude that a number of parents think it's pointless and pass that to the children.

vamos! · 03-05-2012 07:50PM

Roadtrippin wrote: »

On earlier pages I did divulge some information on what I do and where I come from in terms of views on teaching. I am a part-time teacher in a school and university as well as a researcher in pedagogy and teaching practice.

My perspective is mainly that from where I stand, particularly in languages, results after 10 or more years of learning Irish, for example, are below what I would expect. The question is why? There's several issues that play into this, but one of them being that language teachers are not required to attend any teacher training days...

I could go on and on about why I think regular feedback drives by fellow teachers/inspectors should be connected to wages so there is an incentive for teachers to improve.

You teach German at second level, right? What courses are on offer to German teachers? I may have been getting it all wrong but I havent heard of a single in-service or course run by education centers in my area. Have you? There is the conference and the GDI day which happened on a Saturday in Cork this year id I remember correctly. Other than that it is self-funded, expensive Goethe Inst courses. I have done German courses at my own expense and the occasional French course run by the AF, again at my own expense. How could courses that you have to pay quite a bit for be compulsory? Some of your posts make some sense, but I wonder how much experience you actually have of the second level sector in Ireland. You don't appear to have a clear knowledge of the realities.

seavill · 03-05-2012 09:28PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Cool, your opinion is actually qualified

The second could be mitigated by a system where every teacher must sit the Junior Cert / Leaving Cert every year in every subject they teach. Anything less than an A and they are automatically blocked from teaching that subject.

.

I don't mean to sound rude so apologies if it does but, that is possibly the most Ridiculous thing I've read on this thread and there has been some interesting things up to now.
I was going to go into detail on this but I just can't see the point.

Again no offence meant by the above post

byhookorbycrook · 03-05-2012 10:11PM

I know that one of the highest performing students I ever taught found it harder to peer-tutor a younger child, as they just didn't understand how the younger child couldn't just read the word!A child who had to slog a little had a better understanding of the learning process. My point is that knowing the subject inside-out does not always mean you can pass it on to others.

Roadtrippin · 04-05-2012 08:20AM

Powerhouse wrote: »

1) As you say there may be several reasons. Could one of them be that you might not have exerted yourself or that you were simply not very good at the subject/languages? That happens. I have people in front of me who get the same teaching but fare quite differently in exams.

2) Not sure where you're getting this from but I have been on four teacher-training days in the past 18 months or so, as have all the pther language teachers in my school. You might need to be more sure of your ground on basic issues if you are in the business of educational research.

Thanks for bringing this up and giving me the opportunity to get back to you regarding these two points.

Re point 1) I agree. Nothing to add here.

Re point 2) I know people that give talks at these teacher training days and several of the main organisers from the GDI (Gesellschaft fuer Deutschlehrer in Irland = Society for German Teachers in Ireland).

And across the board there is a lack of attendance for the teacher training days they organise. A very small number (and teachers from your institutions may well be among that small number) shows up to these events, mainly because it's on the weekend and they don't want to spare a day of their precious weekend to go to these.
One of the people that presents regularly at these events has told me several times that they should start doing training days during the week since repeatedly they've had only very few teachers show up for them training days.

So, maybe in your case your school and your teachers are very dedicated but I can assure you (and I have a basis for this claim, trust me), that this is the exception rather than the rule.

Roadtrippin · 04-05-2012 08:30AM

vamos! wrote: »

You teach German at second level, right? What courses are on offer to German teachers? I may have been getting it all wrong but I havent heard of a single in-service or course run by education centers in my area. Have you? There is the conference and the GDI day which happened on a Saturday in Cork this year id I remember correctly. Other than that it is self-funded, expensive Goethe Inst courses. I have done German courses at my own expense and the occasional French course run by the AF, again at my own expense. How could courses that you have to pay quite a bit for be compulsory? Some of your posts make some sense, but I wonder how much experience you actually have of the second level sector in Ireland. You don't appear to have a clear knowledge of the realities.

The fact that you don't know about any further events regarding training makes my point.

And yes, I agree that these training days should not cost teachers a substantial amount or be free really, in order for people to attend. I can only talk about languages, which is what I teach at schools, but considering that the government in this country really doesn't give a f*** about languages other than Irish, I think it is needless to say they are not going to train German teachers for free.
There is not even money to keep on the MLPSI at primary school level which I also teach on, so why the hell should they fork out money to help language teachers attend training days.

Re my teaching experience etc. - I am a part-time teacher at schools and teach more hours at universities so needless to say I do not know about all the realities in secondary schools. I never claimed I did. However, you may not want to be so fast to dismiss my suggestions because I do research in this area (language pedagogy and practice) that has shown some serious lack of commitment on parts of the government re languages and implementing sustainable reform and policy change and on parts of some teachers re teacher training.

So you may not like what I have to say and will not want to listen - but I do know a thing or two about some aspects of the education system in Ireland, based on teaching experience and research.

Roadtrippin · 04-05-2012 08:33AM

seavill wrote: »

I don't mean to sound rude so apologies if it does but, that is possibly the most Ridiculous thing I've read on this thread and there has been some interesting things up to now.
I was going to go into detail on this but I just can't see the point.

Again no offence meant by the above post

Yeah, why bother explaining why you like dismissing everyone that has a different opinion than you do on here.

It's so much easier to keep saying that everything said on here is ridiculous :P

Gurgle · 04-05-2012 08:51AM

seavill wrote: »

I don't mean to sound rude so apologies if it does but, that is possibly the most Ridiculous thing I've read on this thread and there has been some interesting things up to now.

I know the image is amusing, but it's a practical and cheap way to get people out of classes where they shouldn't be in the first place.
Most teachers cover one or two subjects, that's only 4 exams per year.

seavill wrote: »

Again no offence meant by the above post

You'd have to try a lot harder than that to offend me

Powerhouse wrote:

incidentally people have no idea how easy these exams would be for teachers teaching the material year in year out!

As it should be, the vast majority of teachers will score 100% every single year. It would be nice to see the ones who can't dumped overboard, and I am 100% sure they are out there.

In theory teachers are qualified to teach particular subjects, in practice every school has holes in the staff and the principle has to get something with a pulse into the classroom.

sitstill · 04-05-2012 10:34AM

Gurgle wrote: »

the principle has to get something with a pulse into the classroom.

I think you mean principal?!

Gurgle · 04-05-2012 10:38AM

sitstill wrote: »

I think you mean principal?!

The principal is your pal

mirekb · 04-05-2012 11:54AM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

But suppose we decide on a "you scratch my back" approach?Suppose that I know a child to be in need of support at x and the other teacher says it's really y s/he needs?Suppose that the standards in our school are higher/lower than another school?Suppose the principal is willing to to sign off on all of this-look at my school, all the teachers are reaching our goals?

Surely the fact that you see this as something that may happen proves that there are Principals and teachers who could benefit from some sort of review system.

I'm a big fan of fostering an open and communicative culture within a school - if the teachers, students and parents all feel as if they will be listened to and acknowledged then it would be easy for a Principal to get an over all idea of if a teacher is 'good' or not (based on student contentment, personalised targets etc..). An over all picture would prevent the one angry student/parent from having too great a say over a teacger's review, and would also take away academic results as the marker for success.

seavill · 04-05-2012 03:34PM

Roadtrippin wrote: »

Yeah, why bother explaining why you like dismissing everyone that has a different opinion than you do on here.

It's so much easier to keep saying that everything said on here is ridiculous :P

I have not dismissed everyone with a different opinion than mine on this forum. Please point out where I have.

I have posted several times in response to comments by partyatmygaff and possibly you I cannot remember now without going back, but most have not been responded to at all.

I have clearly explained my point of view. I have agreed with most of what partyatmygaff has said numerous times except for the part about student surveys being the sole reason for an inspector being called in. I have clearly explained why I have disagreed with this in detail several times.

I am not the only one who posted and found this to not be a logical suggestion.
The poster themselves was not bothered by this but you seem to have reason to post an irrelevant pointless comment.

I did not comment fully on this one as I felt by going into the long details it may sidetrack the thread from the real issues.

Seen as you feel so aggrieved by what I posted I shall explain just for you. Hopefully you will actually have a meaningful reply to it this time.
Also if you would like to point out where on previous pages I have not posted long (probably too long) responses and explanations I would be more than happy to apologise to you.

Anyone can learn off answers to do well in our exam system, teacher or student. This is the whole problem with the way our education system is set up.
More to the point a teacher who has even had an exam class for one year in a subject will definitely know how to answer the exam questions even if they know nothing about the subject past this basic knowledge.
Any teacher will tell you this.
With our system the same type questions come up over and over there is a very finite amount of information that is actually needed for most exams the way the system is now.

As I mentioned even teaching an exam class for one year, a terrible teacher will be able to get 100% in any exam especially if they know they are going to be tested on it.

As most people have been saying on this forum, it is the ones who just cannot teach are the problems. The ones who have no way with children, or have no interest in producing materials in such a way as to make it fun and interesting for the kids.
These are the things that make a good teacher more than whether or not they can learn off a few answers from the book.

Only some form of inspection can judge this, including regular RANDOM, UNANNOUNCED inspections. This is the way forward, not trying to keep students sweet or being able to learn off exam answers.

Hopefully Roadtrippin that explains it enough for you. As you can see an explanation that is kind of off topic for the title of the thread hence why I didn't feel the need to post the first time.

Obligatory, wage-affecting performance reviews for teachers - a great idea!

Comments