Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

onemorechance · 01-05-2012 03:55PM

Manchester United fans could be forgiven for abandoning hope of winning the Premier League title after their derby defeat.

Yahoo! Eurosport.

If we add up the total of all of the blue and red cells, we are left with the overall probability that each club will win the title.
MANCHESTER CITY CHAMPIONS: 57.4% - MANCHESTER UNITED CHAMPIONS: 42.6%
It might have felt like a title decider last night, but with two games to go the destiny of the Premier League trophy is still far from certain.

Blatter · 01-05-2012 03:56PM

Your Airbag wrote: »

I'm being more serious than not. Rooney outside of England is viewed as one of our leagues if not the leagues star player. I reckon if we sold him to Barca or Madrid (Jose did say give me a call if he wants to leave when Rooney had his strop) we would get a nice sum of money for him that would cover the acquisition cost of RVP, maybe even with a little to spare.

Hopefully the Nasri to City deal has soured relations a little and they would prefer to sell to us. This is all fantasy talk of course.

RVP would cost maybe £30-35m, taking into account he's in the last year of his contract. He's 29 in the Summer and would probably command similar wages to what Rooney is on now. He also has a terrible history with injuries and he is capable of being plagued with them at any moment.

Rooney on the other hand is only just entering his prime (27 in October) and has never had any real serious injury concerns. The most any team would be willing to pay for him would be around £60m I would imagine.

Would it be worth it when you weigh it all up? No imo. We know what we'll get from Rooney, RVP would not be guaranteed to hit it off. Moving from London to Manchester is a big life change, and there is always the risk he could never settle properly, or take 12 months to settle, 12 months we wouldn't have to spare taking into account his age.

A big money deal for RVP will be a major risk for any club this Summer imo. I would personally avoid it.

Backstreet Moyes · 01-05-2012 04:03PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Better example too me would be a United one - Ronaldo.

We sold him, got a tonne of cash and we're still using it to strenghten the team. We are still winning titles without him.

Can i name one striker better than Rooney? Not easily. But thats missing my point. Losing Rooney but getting a striker ala Llorente, RVP or similiar AND being able to invest in a top strimg CM...one player bettet than Rooney is hard to do but two combined? Easy.

How much do you think we are going to get for Rooney max 50 million. Llorente would cost at least 35. R.V.P a similar amount. What world class midfielder are you going to get for €15 mill. Use your examples both Llorente and R.V.P. are much more likely to go to City, Madrid or Barca. Then midfielders who is going to be easy to get that wont cost fortune. Then you have to factor if the players will settle. If these players dont settle we would struggle without Rooney. Your suggestion is very far from easy. It might be easy in Football Manager but not in the real world.

Blatter · 01-05-2012 04:03PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

I think 4-5-1 works better for teams who have good set piece conversion rates. I don't think United are very strong in that department. How many threatening set pieces did united have last night? Frees in or around the box and corners?

Well I think you need either a striker than is pacey and can take players on and/or a quick/creative midfield player (like Silva) breaking from midfield otherwise things are just far too predictable.

I'm not sure why you think set pieces are relevant?

Orando Broom · 01-05-2012 04:07PM

Blatter wrote: »

Well I think you need either a striker than is pacey and can take players on and/or a quick/creative midfield player (like Silva) breaking from midfield otherwise things are just far too predictable.

I'm not sure why you think set pieces are relevant?

It is a cautious formation.

I think chances are few and far between with 4-5-1. if you have a low conversion rate from set pieces I think you'll struggle to win games.

How much worse would United have been last night With 4-5-1 and Rooney lying deeper and Welbeck playing the lone frontman? Have United ever lined up like that with Scholes available?

Blatter · 01-05-2012 04:11PM

And btw, those saying we need a miracle to win the title now, I'm not sure where you're coming from.

It's all riding on the Newcastle game. They haven't lost at St James in 2012, and have only lost there twice all season, whereas City have a distinctly average to poor away record since Christmas.

The fact that Newcastle have to play Chelsea on Wednesday definitely gives City an advantage but it's by no means a cast iron certainty that they'll beat them. The outcome of that game is very much in the balance.

Blatter · 01-05-2012 04:16PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

It is a cautious formation.

I think chances are few and far between with 4-5-1. if you have a low conversion rate from set pieces I think you'll struggle to win games.

How much worse would United have been last night With 4-5-1 and Rooney lying deeper and Welbeck playing the lone frontman? Have United ever lined up like that with Scholes available?

Against Tottenham at WHL. We were somewhat overrun in midfield but at least provided a threat going forward and won the game 3-1.

I said before the game last night that we should have lined up like that as the players are used to the specific attacking patterns and drills in that system, with Rooney as the focal point.

onemorechance · 01-05-2012 04:18PM

Blatter wrote: »

And btw, those saying we need a miracle to win the title now, I'm not sure where you're coming from.

It's all riding on the Newcastle game. They haven't lost at St James in 2012, and have only lost there twice all season, whereas City have a distinctly average to poor away record since Christmas.

The fact that Newcastle have to play Chelsea on Wednesday definitely gives City an advantage but it's by no means a cast iron certainty that they'll beat them. The outcome of that game is very much in the balance.

The destiny of the title will be decided in Tyne and Wear, either City beating Newcastle or if not, United beating Sunderland.

Lord TSC · 01-05-2012 04:19PM

Nuts102 wrote: »

How much do you think we are going to get for Rooney max 50 million. Llorente would cost at least 35. R.V.P a similar amount. What world class midfielder are you going to get for €15 mill. Use your examples both Llorente and R.V.P. are much more likely to go to City, Madrid or Barca. Then midfielders who is going to be easy to get that wont cost fortune. Then you have to factor if the players will settle. If these players dont settle we would struggle without Rooney. Your suggestion is very far from easy. It might be easy in Football Manager but not in the real world.

I think 50m would be a tad stingy tbh. You look at Torres who commanded 50m, and I think Rooney would be viewed as a far bigger player, would be coming from a far bigger team and would likely go to someone like Real who would have the money to pay more. I'd say 60m would be a bit closer to the mark, but I can understand why people would say less.

Say 50m though, to be conservative. Yeah, 35m of that would go on a striker. But I'm not saying all we'd have left is 15m. I'm saying that would go towards another CM. Say we add 10m on top of that, and now you've got 25m to go spend on a top class midfielder. Without a Rooneys sale, you've only got 10m. I'm not saying a Rooney sale in the short term would be a good move. Just that, if we're going to take a risk and try and compete with the big money spenders, would it make for a better long term plan to sell him off now near his peak and get a huge windfall, than let him sit around for another year with the same team and the same problems around him. Do we try and address the problems and take the risk, or do we sit back and hope they go away by themselves?

Hey, I'm not saying we should or it would definitly be the right move. It was a hypothetical situation, and I can see both sides of the arguement. I can totally see where people are coming from when they come back with logical arguements. There's some people's over-reactions, like calling me a blind r*****, I find laughable though.

Your Airbag · 01-05-2012 04:20PM

Blatter wrote: »

Would it be worth it when you weigh it all up? No imo. We know what we'll get from Rooney, RVP would not be guaranteed to hit it off.

I agree it wouldn't be worth it. I was just answering the who could you get for the same cost and at a similar level question.

It would be madness to sell Rooney. He could do with pulling up his socks a bit more though, he hasn't been great of late and I was at the Villa match and although he got two goals he had a rubbish game and the whole North stand, me included let him know it. Everytime he got the ball he gave it away and a penalty and deflected goal papered up the cracks of his poor performance that day.

On the other hand his hair is coming along nicely.

Cantona's Collars · 01-05-2012 04:21PM

Blatter wrote: »

And btw, those saying we need a miracle to win the title now, I'm not sure where you're coming from.

It's all riding on the Newcastle game. They haven't lost at St James in 2012, and have only lost there twice all season, whereas City have a distinctly average to poor away record since Christmas.

The fact that Newcastle have to play Chelsea on Wednesday definitely gives City an advantage but it's by no means a cast iron certainty that they'll beat them. The outcome of that game is very much in the balance.

Here's my scenario for Sunday, Newcastle to take points off City.....cue much rejoicing by all of us only for that joy to be tempered as United concede a sloppy goal to lose against Swansea after playing as if half the team were on the beer.

Still amazed at the selection of Park ahead of Valencia last night,Schole's outball to Valencia which reaped so much reward was missing as time & time again Nani was out of position or Park was falling over himself and Scholes couldn't play those sublime passes out wide.

Copper_pipe · 01-05-2012 04:23PM

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onemorechance · 01-05-2012 04:25PM

Former Manchester United midfielder Nicky Butt has launched a passionate defence of Sir Alex Ferguson's team selection at the Etihad Stadium on Monday night.
Butt was working for MUTV as an analyst on the 1-0 defeat to Manchester City that cost United their position at the top of the Premier League. However, rather than joining the chorus of condemnation for Ferguson's decision to use Wayne Rooney as a lone front man and pack his midfield, Butt said the move made sense.
"We had to go there not to get beaten and the system was to stop City from dictating the play in midfield," said Butt.
"Manchester City dominate midfield in 90% of the games. We have seen how well they move the ball. If United had played two up front we would have been wide open and they could have scored three or four.
"Let's not underestimate Manchester City. They are a quality team, who have spent millions of pounds on world class stars.
"It was bad defending by Chris Smalling but apart from that, United did the job. The plan worked for 46 minutes.
"We were trying to stop them creating chances, which Silva, Tevez, Aguero, Nasri can do. If we had got to half-time, who knows what would have happened. But I am convinced if we had played two up front we would have conceded more than one goal."
However Butt, who won six Premier League titles during his time at Old Trafford, insists United will still win the title, with City next facing a testing trip to Newcastle before a home game against QPR.
"It is far from over. I still don't think City will win the league," Butt said.
"I remember playing West Ham in 1995. People said we would tear them apart and win the league. But football is not like that. People have pride. City have got two tough games, as have United."

Yahoo! Eurosport.

Nice to see support and encouragement for the manager and team! Hopefully the QPR game can be a repeat of that West Ham game! :pac:

Blatter · 01-05-2012 04:27PM

Your Airbag wrote: »

I agree it wouldn't be worth it. I was just answering the who could you get for the same cost and at a similar level question.

It would be madness to sell Rooney. He could do with pulling up his socks a bit more though, he hasn't been great of late and I was at the Villa match and although he got two goals he had a rubbish game and the whole North stand, me included let him know it. Everytime he got the ball he gave it away and a penalty and deflected goal papered up the cracks of his poor performance that day.

On the other hand his hair is coming along nicely.

I was in the North stand for that too, and it was the worst I've seen Rooney in a United shirt ever.

The season as a whole, has been highly successful for him though. 33 goals in 39 starts, most of which have been in a withdrawn role. Can't ask for much more than that in fairness.

POSSY · 01-05-2012 04:28PM

I've heard some nonsense in my time but selling Rooney takes the biscuit. The lad is the only reason we are where we are (himself and Valencia and to a lesser extent DDG has made some important sales).

So here's another suggestion: Given we are the most valuable club in the world and we have owners who have never been shown to with-hold funds from the manager, then maybe our manager should give up to "no value in the market" bollix and just buy some established players before end up like Arsenal (not saying we are going to). To sell our best player to fund this is retarded to say the least.

We need midfielder. We've needed them for years now. But instead we've scrimped and saved and tried to get bargains and buy cheap while wasting the millions, AND MILLIONNNS, of pounds we have on flops like Obertan, Bebe and others. Time to get real and get the wallet out.

Backstreet Moyes · 01-05-2012 04:31PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I think 50m would be a tad stingy tbh. You look at Torres who commanded 50m, and I think Rooney would be viewed as a far bigger player, would be coming from a far bigger team and would likely go to someone like Real who would have the money to pay more. I'd say 60m would be a bit closer to the mark, but I can understand why people would say less.

Say 50m though, to be conservative. Yeah, 35m of that would go on a striker. But I'm not saying all we'd have left is 15m. I'm saying that would go towards another CM. Say we add 10m on top of that, and now you've got 25m to go spend on a top class midfielder. Without a Rooneys sale, you've only got 10m. I'm not saying a Rooney sale in the short term would be a good move. Just that, if we're going to take a risk and try and compete with the big money spenders, would it make for a better long term plan to sell him off now near his peak and get a huge windfall, than let him sit around for another year with the same team and the same problems around him. Do we try and address the problems and take the risk, or do we sit back and hope they go away by themselves?

Hey, I'm not saying we should or it would definitly be the right move. It was a hypothetical situation, and I can see both sides of the arguement. I can totally see where people are coming from when they come back with logical arguements. There's some people's over-reactions, like calling me a blind r*****, I find laughable though.

Selling your best player when he is entering his peak to cash in on him for the money is alright if you are a mid table team. Your scenario makes no sense to be one of the best you dont cash in on your best player for a huge windfall. Thats just bizzare and makes your suggestion look pretty dumb.

titan18 · 01-05-2012 04:35PM

Also, there's no guarantee we'd get that money for Rooney. He's worth it when you take into account fees for Torres etc, but Chelsea wanted him, Real wanted Ronaldo. Out of the clubs who could afford to buy Rooney that he'd go too, I can't see Real or Barca bidding that much for him, and I wouldn't want to sell him to Chelsea or City.

POSSY · 01-05-2012 04:41PM

http://www.adifferentleague.co.uk/p6_1_14675_real-madrid-man-utd-friendly-confirmed.html

If they really want to be charitable they can give us Ronaldo back... and throw in a few spare midfielders for good measure! :pac:

Orando Broom · 01-05-2012 04:42PM

POSSY wrote: »

I've heard some nonsense in my time but selling Rooney takes the biscuit. The lad is the only reason we are where we are (himself and Valencia and to a lesser extent DDG has made some important sales).

So here's another suggestion: Given we are the most valuable club in the world and we have owners who have never been shown to with-hold funds from the manager, then maybe our manager should give up to "no value in the market" bollix and just buy some established players before end up like Arsenal (not saying we are going to). To sell our best player to fund this is retarded to say the least.

We need midfielder. We've needed them for years now. But instead we've scrimped and saved and tried to get bargains and buy cheap while wasting the millions, AND MILLIONNNS, of pounds we have on flops like Obertan, Bebe and others. Time to get real and get the wallet out.

Manchester United are a vehicle for profit for the Glazers, everything that is mooted about buying this player or that has to be examined through the prisim of this fact.

The simple fact of the matter is there is a greater chance of United signing a Yohan Cabaye for £6m than a Javi Martienez for £20m.

01-05-2012 04:43PM

Fergie and the rest of the team bottled it. For all their experience Scholes (though he gave his all) and Giggs showed no leadership at all last night which was why they were in the team and ultimately except for the Norwich match this season the team have never stepped up when they've needed to and Fergie has made a mess of team selections and tactics on far too many occasions.

So...after all these years and all these titles and trophies...is it time for Fergie to go? I've put a lot of thought into this both last night and this morning and it's not being fickle, I was happy enough to just challenge this year under the pretense that it was a transition year but the team was gifted the title and ultimately the tactics and the players weren't there when they were needed. I'm blaming Fergie. One decent midfield signing playing from the start of the season and United are in the knockout stages of the CL and wins the title at a canter. To lose it like that with no shots on target and no shots in an entire half is shameful and shows that his stubbornness has finally caught up with him.

Fergie's reluctance to change the system drastically when things were going wrong both last night and in the last few years has cost United in a lot of big games. There seems to be no philosophy at the club and just putting a random group of players on the pitch and hope for some individual brilliance which with the likes of Rooney and Nani there has been provided. However when the challenge is laid down and tactics have been needed, without a McClaren/Queiroz etc. Fergie has been shown up. It might be time for him to move on, though getting a number 2 with the tactical nous of Queiroz or McClaren and having Fergie for his motivational skills would be just as good...

Your Airbag · 01-05-2012 04:43PM

I think we are all in agreement that Newcastle are strong at home and they hold the best chance of us winning the league. Or is it?

Its a tough away fixture but I think people underestimate how buoyed up City will now be and make no mistake they will really be up for it. A though away fixture to Chelsea Wednesday night doesn't help our chances either.

If Newcastle loose that game the chance of fourth for them will be remote and they will be demoralized going into Sundays game, if they get a positive result they will be equally up for it along with City. I predict a narrow City win unfortunately.

But hang on, start Berbatov against Swansea Sunday and throw everything at them. A couple of early goals could open the floodgates as Swansea are a team that actually come out to try and play, something which could work in our favour.

Berbatov does well against the lower teams, he got five against Blackburn last season and was a header away from being the first ever EPL to get six in one match, could he do the same Sunday? What a swansong that would be. A couple of goals from elsewhere and what stands at a goal difference of +8 in City's favour could have a massive chunk taken out of it.

How tense would it be going into a final day with us away to Sunderland who are already safe, and City at home to QPR who might need to park the bus in a desperate bid for survival, in a straight the-team-who-scores most wins the title shootout?

NOW THAT WOULD BE ONE HELL OF A FINISH

.......

........I think I need to lay off the coffee and sugar in work a bit more.

Owen_S · 01-05-2012 04:58PM

Putting 9 goals past Sunderland is surely more likely than putting 8 past Arsenal.

bucketybuck · 01-05-2012 04:59PM

Pro. F wrote: »

People are just letting you know that what you are saying is a completely fùcking retarded over reaction...

...Absolute bollocks. You do not have a clue what you are talking about. Even on the most basic level of understanding of how defending in football works you are clueless.

Do you actually realise how often you have written these or similar words on this forum? Either you are twelve years old or just socially inept, either way your frothing, insulting overreactions to other people having opinions is a blight on discussion in here.

Seriously, listen to yourself sometime. It seems everybody else on the planet has no understanding of football. :rolleyes:

POSSY · 01-05-2012 05:01PM

Your Airbag wrote: »

How tense would it be going into a final day with us away to Sunderland who are already safe, and City at home to QPR who might need to park the bus in a desperate bid for survival, in a straight the-team-who-scores most wins the title shootout?more.

Given Wigan just beat NUFC 4-0 and have QPR at home who were beaten 6-1 in a derby match against Chelski, plus City being more than up for it after last night, if both Utd and City win both games (and us beating Sunderland is by no means a guarantee), if I was a betting man I'd be putting money on City scoring more goals than we do. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a case of us eeking out a victory on Sunday.

Perfect time perhaps for 2 great servants to the club,O'Shea and O.G., to come to our rescue!

Mars Bar · 01-05-2012 05:03PM

I got chased around the classroom by a City fan with a City scarf this morning.

POSSY · 01-05-2012 05:07PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

Manchester United are a vehicle for profit for the Glazers, everything that is mooted about buying this player or that has to be examined through the prisim of this fact.

The simple fact of the matter is there is a greater chance of United signing a Yohan Cabaye for £6m than a Javi Martienez for £20m.

Yes Man Utd are there to make the Glazers money. But they will make **** all (particularly commercial revenue) if the the Utd success stops. They gave the money for Nani/Anderson/Young/Jones/Berbatov(30m+). There's not an ounce of evidence to suggest they dictate transfer policy or spending. In fact everything Fergie has ever stated would suggest the opposite.

Vertigo100 · 01-05-2012 05:08PM

Man city only one win away all season against a top nine side.Newcastle second best home record in the league.

Tis not over yet lads. We can hope.

01-05-2012 05:13PM

Vertigo100 wrote: »

Man city only one win away all season against a top nine side.Newcastle second best home record in the league.

Tis not over yet lads. We can hope.

Honestly, United don't deserve to win the league. They haven't played like champions outside the first 3 or 4 games.

Blatter · 01-05-2012 05:18PM

Liam O wrote: »

Honestly, United don't deserve to win the league. They haven't played like champions outside the first 3 or 4 games.

Which ever team is top of the league after 38 games 'deserve' to win the league. Simple fact of the matter.

01-05-2012 05:22PM

Blatter wrote: »

Which ever team is top of the league after 38 games 'deserve' to win the league. Simple fact of the matter.

People keep saying this but I'm not sure I buy it, City have played the better football with the better players and went out to win last night, when they got the goal they tightened up yes but it was a cop out from Fergie and the team that went out for the win won and the team that tried to draw lost. They were substantially better in the 2 games they played against United too. United haven't played like champions for most of the season.

Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

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