Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

kryogen · 01-05-2012 12:32PM

Smalling had a very good game bar the goal, all players make mistakes and he really shouldn't be made the scapegoat. The defense was not the problem last night, and I disagree with the guy who said one header one minute before half time was the difference between Fergie being a genius and him getting it wrong.

Sometimes that is the case in football alright, it is a results business, but there is no way that team would have been able to hold out for 90 minutes regardless, you can't sit back and expect a team with the quality of City to keep on wasting chances or being unlucky, Aguero had some good chances before the goal and City should have already been winning.

City ended the game playing something like a 5311 formation, they would certainly not have been so negative in the second half if they didn't have the lead, there was no way in hell the personnel on the field for United were going to be able to trouble them.

Once City scored and Fergie didn't alter it at half time that was it, then game was over.

Fergie got the selection wrong, nobody but an idiot of the highest order would actually think otherwise, that is not directed at anybody in here, a simple statement. These things are not hindsight, they were mentioned before the game and mentioned even more when the team sheet was announced.

It is not good enough to go and play for a draw, we may as well have lost the game 3-1 as 1-0, City didn't have to worry at all about a threat from United because there was none, at least if there was a threat they would have had to not commit so many players forward, they would have had to at least keep one eye on defense.

Valencia on one wing and Nani on the other would have provided such a better option, he could still pack the midfield if he wanted, Valencia is well able to put in a shift defensively and still be an attacking threat, I would like to say I'm shocked at the events of last night, but given what we have already seen this season I wasn't.

Hopefully a couple of changes might be made in the backroom staff and a couple of good options bought in the summer, crazy as it is this squad is still a very good squad and is not far away from being a proper European powerhouse again. It is important that the right areas are addressed this time, as it was last year and the year before though. Hopefully the team losing out on the league, and in the manner it has done so, will make Fergie look at himself and a few of his decisions and simply admit he got a lot wrong and take the necessary steps to fix what is wrong.

Some of the players there are not good enough anymore and should now never be seen again in a United jersey, players like Park and Giggs, though they have been good servants, Giggs has been exceptional over the years and he is a club legend of the highest order are simply not good enough anymore and must be replaced.

The injuries have been a massive problem for us this season but they cannot be used as an excuse for the failure of the last few games and in a greater sense, the failure in Europe this season.

kryogen · 01-05-2012 12:36PM

Also, a word for Fergie, since he gets serious stick for being a sore loser from the opposition fans, after his spat with Mancini, after losing a game that pretty much lost the team the title, he still went over and shook Mancinis hand at the end of the game.

BenK · 01-05-2012 12:46PM

kryogen wrote: »

Fergie got the selection wrong, nobody but an idiot of the highest order would actually think otherwise, that is not directed at anybody in here, a simple statement. These things are not hindsight, they were mentioned before the game and mentioned even more when the team sheet was announced.

100% agree. If every man and his dog can see it how could Fergie not though? I genuinely am amazed he went with the team he did.

Samba · 01-05-2012 12:47PM

kryogen wrote: »

Also, a word for Fergie, since he gets serious stick for being a sore loser from the opposition fans, after his spat with Mancini, after losing a game that pretty much lost the team the title, he still went over and shook Mancinis hand at the end of the game.

He was made look bad by the fact that for once, De Jong actually made a genuine attempt to win the ball

nkay1985 · 01-05-2012 12:49PM

Strangely enough, I think for all the problems with the midfield selection, our biggest issue was Evans being injured. If he had been fit, Fergie could have played Smalling at right full. I can fully understand not playing Rafael due to his hot-headedness but in a straight choice between himself and Jones at right full, I don't know how Jones won out.

I still can't get over Fergie lea vine the changes so late. Didn't give anyone a chance to impact the game.

kryogen · 01-05-2012 12:54PM

Samba wrote: »

He was made look bad by the fact that for once, De Jong actually made a genuine attempt to win the ball

De Jong did not get the ball though, De Jong took Dannys ankle did he not?

How was he made look bad? Genuinely don't understand you?

Tackle went in, Welbeck hit the ground, Fergie got up to remonstrate with the ref/4th official, Mancini got up and claimed it should have actually been a free to City!?! then Fergie had a little pop at him.

I for one believe Paul Scholes also genuinely tries to get the ball but just fails alot

Samba · 01-05-2012 01:11PM

kryogen wrote: »

De Jong did not get the ball though, De Jong took Dannys ankle did he not?

How was he made look bad? Genuinely don't understand you?

Tackle went in, Welbeck hit the ground, Fergie got up to remonstrate with the ref/4th official, Mancini got up and claimed it should have actually been a free to City!?! then Fergie had a little pop at him.

I for one believe Paul Scholes also genuinely tries to get the ball but just fails alot

Fergie reacted as though De Jong went out of his way to do him in, when that wasn't the case at all, his eyes were fixed on the ball and I don't think there was any malicious intent, it was a Scholes masterclass in tackling and nothing more. From that point of view, his reaction might look bad, but really he was just looking out for his player.

Your Airbag · 01-05-2012 01:15PM

Welbeck left the Etihad in a protective boot and could miss the final two games, so it was a meaty challenge no doubt.

I'd like to see Berbatov start the next two games with Chico being used as the impact sub. Berbatov usually cleans up against the lesser teams and a bit of composure in the final third wouldn't go astray.

kryogen · 01-05-2012 01:18PM

Samba wrote: »

Fergie reacted as though De Jong went out of his way to do him in, when that wasn't the case at all, his eyes were fixed on the ball and I don't think there was any malicious intent, it was a Scholes masterclass in tackling and nothing more. From that point of view, his reaction might look bad, but really he was just looking out for his player.

Ah right, oh I agree, think De Jong went for the ball alright, just wouldn't be sure Fergie saw it as clearly with no tv! Also, he is gonna be trying to get an advantage if he can

He reacted as most managers react to similar situations is all.

kryogen · 01-05-2012 01:20PM

Your Airbag wrote: »

Welbeck left the Etihad in a protective boot and could miss the final two games, so it was a meaty challenge no doubt.

I'd like to see Berbatov start the next two games with Chico being used as the impact sub. Berbatov usually cleans up against the lesser teams and a bit of composure in the final third wouldn't go astray.

Agree 100%

Not sure Fergie will see it that way though unfortunately, Berba would be idela for the Swansea game anyway I think.

SK1979 · 01-05-2012 01:29PM

Obviously as gutted as the rest of you guys about the result last night, but I've a slightly different (I hope) take on why and how it happened.

Like others, when I saw the team, I was like WTF is Fergie playing at picking Park, Giggs and Scholes in midfield (Jones less so but anyway).

However, I actually dont think Park was the worst player out there. While he was there (till about 57/58 mins?) we really didn't look like conceding a goal. It was only after he went off that Yaya Toure came forward more and dominated our midfield. In fairness, he gave zero attacking threat but I could kind of understand the logic of Fergies tactics.

Where he did go wrong though was the subs that he named. Why bother naming Welbeck, Chico and Berba on the bench when at the most he should of named two of them (he was never in a million years going to use Berba last night). Not having a midfielder (probably Cleverley as Pro F pointed out) on the bench was criminal as it was so bleeding obvious that Scholes and Giggs would tire. He was then hamstrung by having to take Park off (as he ran out of steam), then had to get Valencia on (as he's probably been our most effective player all season) and with the final change feeling like Young should replace Nani.

The tactics actually could of worked perfectly with good changes on our bench. Even at 1-0 down, it was still perfectly poised. Mancini predictably reverts to type and goes into his shell, we should of been able to gain the upper hand and put them under pressure for the last 15-20 mins.

This to me, like others have alluded to, is a lack of knowledgable people behind Fergie giving him good tactical advice. Even Rafael could of been left off the bench if he wasn't going to start him. Once Mancini brought on De Jong, we should of changed it up and tried to get the upper hand by taking more risks.

So so disappointed at throwing this league away. And you'll know in the next couple of weeks what our team will be like next season, if we dont sign players before the Euro's, you can dampen your expectations as there's no way we'll bid for players after it.

Oh, and one more thing, I thought Rio was absolutely magnificient last night, he's proven in the last couple of weeks that when he is put up to it (and concentrating fully), he's still our best defender (including a fit Vidic) imo.

Kerrydude1981 · 01-05-2012 01:46PM

Not starting Valencia has me baffled,he gives as much defending as he does going forward,heaped with praise for his performances of late by SAF and then dropped to the bench for the biggest game of the season

Orando Broom · 01-05-2012 02:04PM

Can we give the utterly anonymous Rooney a bit of stick? He's entitled to it.

I think the first person to blame the lack of service should get a ban!

Rooney last night, in my opinion, hid. I think great players make it happen for them. Last night he looked like he was on half power. Rooney seems to me to be a player that when others are playing well (usually Valencia and Scholes) he plays well but if the team performance level drops; Rooney disappears. Last night United needed him so badly and he came up waaay short. his passing was sloppy, his movement was ponderous, just a non event.

kryogen · 01-05-2012 02:08PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

Can we give the utterly anonymous Rooney a bit of stick? He's entitled to it.

I think the first person to blame the lack of service should get a ban!

Rooney last night, in my opinion, hid. I think great players make it happen for them. Last night he looked like he was on half power. Rooney seems to me to be a player that when others are playing well (usually Valencia and Scholes) he plays well but if the team performance level drops; Rooney disappears. Last night United needed him so badly and he came up waaay short. his passing was sloppy, his movement was ponderous, just a non event.

He was extremely isolated, not many centre forwards are going to have good games fighting Kompany and Lescott on their own along with having Barry to contend with.

He didn't have a great game anyway, his touch was poor and his passing was off, but its been said plenty, this has been the way he has been playing for a few weeks now.

To refuse to acknowledge the effect of how isolated he was up front is a bit silly though, he was poor, but he was certainly not helped hy the lack of service

He was coming deep, trying to get on the ball, but it just wasn't happening for him, and to be honest even if it was happening for him there was nobody there for him to pass the ball to anyway

Backstreet Moyes · 01-05-2012 02:08PM

I really think the league is far from over Newcastle will be tough to beat.

homerjay2005 · 01-05-2012 02:10PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

Can we give the utterly anonymous Rooney a bit of stick? He's entitled to it.

I think the first person to blame the lack of service should get a ban!

Rooney last night, in my opinion, hid. I think great players make it happen for them. Last night he looked like he was on half power. Rooney seems to me to be a player that when others are playing well (usually Valencia and Scholes) he plays well but if the team performance level drops; Rooney disappears. Last night United needed him so badly and he came up waaay short. his passing was sloppy, his movement was ponderous, just a non event.

are you f*cking joking me? Rooney played s*it cos the rest of the team did, apart from carrick and scholes. he was playing an isolated role, with 4 defenders around him.

last night was a game that was tactical and defensive minded. if you say rooney was bad, how poor were Aguero and tevez? they barely got a kick either.

last night was a horrible game of football, perhaps the worst quality of football all season involving teams at the top of the table.

n32 · 01-05-2012 02:15PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

Can we give the utterly anonymous Rooney a bit of stick? He's entitled to it.

I think the first person to blame the lack of service should get a ban!

Rooney last night, in my opinion, hid. I think great players make it happen for them. Last night he looked like he was on half power. Rooney seems to me to be a player that when others are playing well (usually Valencia and Scholes) he plays well but if the team performance level drops; Rooney disappears. Last night United needed him so badly and he came up waaay short. his passing was sloppy, his movement was ponderous, just a non event.

I'm starting to think that Rooney is heading for the exit door. Not to put too fine a point on it but for the last 18 months he s been a total wanker on the pitch. The manic chasing of opposition players is gone. Now he only throws his hands in the air and sulks. He constantly whines if the ball doesn't come to him on a plate. He d want to look at Danny welbecks on field attitude

xtal191 · 01-05-2012 02:18PM

Nuts102 wrote: »

I really think the league is far from over Newcastle will be tough to beat.

Am I the only one who thinks City will destroy Newcastle? Especially if they lose to Chelsea tomorrow.

Orando Broom · 01-05-2012 02:19PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

are you f*cking joking me? Rooney played s*it cos the rest of the team did, apart from carrick and scholes. he was playing an isolated role, with 4 defenders around him.

last night was a game that was tactical and defensive minded. if you say rooney was bad, how poor were Aguero and tevez? they barely got a kick either.

last night was a horrible game of football, perhaps the worst quality of football all season involving teams at the top of the table.

I agree with you totally on Aguero and Tevez. overall I think City were poor to be honest. I thought Aguero was marginally the better of the two but city's best attackers were in Midfield, Touré and Nasri.

I think your opening statement speaks very lowly of Rooney. The guy's performance level drops because of the team being poor. Not a mark of a great player but again I agree with you and it is essentially what I said. four defenders around him? didn't see that myself.

It seemed to me that he was man-marked by Kompany until the yellow and then Lescott was switched on top him. He was schooled by both. Never saw him Agustin Shallow Signpost up on once. There was no need. Instead you had Nani making over a dozen tackles on a rampaging Clichy and Zabaleta having the freedom of his wing. Neither operated in a defensive role on Rooney.

n32 · 01-05-2012 02:20PM

xtal191 wrote: »

Nuts102 wrote: »

I really think the league is far from over Newcastle will be tough to beat.

Am I the only one who thinks City will destroy Newcastle? Especially if they lose to Chelsea tomorrow.

Newcastles defence is woeful. Simpson and Williamson will be torn asunder

Lord TSC · 01-05-2012 02:21PM

I do wonder if we sold Rooney, could we use that money to get as good a striker and still have more money left over to put towards other players...

Jax Teller · 01-05-2012 02:22PM

xtal191 wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks City will destroy Newcastle? Especially if they lose to Chelsea tomorrow.

i dont think Newcastle will win any of their remaining games .

Al Capwned · 01-05-2012 02:26PM

Coletrickle88 wrote: »

i dont think Newcastle will win any of their remaining games .

Dont want them to - just get a poxy draw on Sunday!

Will I Amnt · 01-05-2012 02:28PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

Can we give the utterly anonymous Rooney a bit of stick? He's entitled to it.

He gets his share of stick.
He's been poor for a while now,goals have been masking poor all round performances.
Nobody really cares too much if he's not playing well when scoring.
Forwards getting goals don't tend to cop a lot of stick.

I don't think it works playing him up top on his own anyway.
For all his positives and brilliance he's missing the ability to beat a man with a bit of trickery.This is my only real gripe with him.
You back the defender too often with Rooney running at him.It works to an extent when holding it up and bringing others into play but it's a real hindrance not to have that little extra in your game to take the defender on and run at goal.

When on form he does what he does as good as anybody in regards to long range,intelligent passing,driving runs into space and bringing others into play.
His goals are the reason we're still in the title race and so absolves him of a lot of blame for me anyway.

Orando Broom · 01-05-2012 02:29PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I do wonder if we sold Rooney, could we use that money to get as good a striker and still have more money left over to put towards other players...

Could the removal of Rooney from the squad see the opportunity to return to an orthodoxy in the formation. 4-4-2 and ball winner and an attacker in the middle, big and little up top and the wingers United have now.

Just say really hypothetical, verging on daftness

Valencia--Martinez--Goetze--Nani

Welbeck -- Hernandez

I am struglging to name a few reasonably priced strikers (15m or thereabouts) that would improve on Welbeck or Hernandez.

Obviously Llorente but that would be a megabucks deal. Ricky van Wolfswinkel would be my left of field pick.

xtal191 · 01-05-2012 02:32PM

Javi Martinez is never coming to us

Backstreet Moyes · 01-05-2012 02:32PM

Dear lord when you think you see it all people start talking about selling Rooney after a poor game.

Will I Amnt · 01-05-2012 02:32PM

Selling Rooney would be more baffling than last nights team selection.
Especially if you were going into next season with Welbeck and Hernandez as your first choice front 2.
They're just not ready for that yet.

Lord TSC · 01-05-2012 02:37PM

Nuts102 wrote: »

Dear lord when you think you see it all people start talking about selling Rooney after a poor game.

1. Its not one bad game. Rooney has been playing poorly for a while, scoring a goal and doing little elsebfor the rest of the game. Im not basing this off one game but many.

2. I look at it in a way where now is when we'd get the most cash for him. My point wasnt "he is useless. get rid of him". Its that if we sold him now, we'd be able to reinvest it in as good a striker and still have cash left to address other areas. Its not just about dropping Rooney; its looking at a bigger overall picture and team...

Mikeyt086 · 01-05-2012 02:39PM

What do you want Wayne Rooney to do? For the love of god. Should he have tracked back, won the ball, dribbled up the whole pitch past 10 City players and rifled one in the top corner? Even if he did that I would be reading "Rooney doesnt pass enough".

Wayne Rooney was left alone against 4 City defenders and at least 1 midfielder at almost all stages last night. If you cant see that he didnt perform because those other 10 United players were totally incapable of getting the ball to him then please, shut it.

We lost because we were totally dominated in midfield. City beat us TO EVERY SINGLE BALL. There was nobody to pass to. Ever. It is the same thing that happened with Bilbao and Barcelona last year, we just had nobody to pass it to. So we pass it around until the pressure is too much and we have to hoof it away. Use your ****ing eyes like.

Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

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