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Israel's uncompromising stance on settlements draws global condemnation

  • 26-04-2012 05:47AM
    #1
    cyberhog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 941 ✭✭✭


    US 'concerned' over new settlement approval
    The United States is "concerned" about the Israeli government decision to turn three West Bank outposts into settlements, and is seeking clarifications from Israel, the State Department said Tuesday.

    "We are obviously concerned by the reports that we have seen. We have raised this with the Israeli government," State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland told reporters. "We don't think this is helpful to the process, and we don't accept the legitimacy of continued settlement activity."

    http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=267450

    EU expresses "extreme concern" over Israeli settlement
    BRUSSELS, April 25 (KUNA) -- EU High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Catherine Ashton expressed "extreme concern" on Wednesday regarding the decision by Israeli authorities on the status of the settlements of Sansana, Rechelim and Bruchin in the occupied Palestinian territory.
    "I call upon them to reverse this decision," she said in a statement.

    http://www.kuna.net.kw/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=2236436&language=en


    U.N. chief "deeply troubled" by new West Bank outposts

    (Reuters) - U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon said on Tuesday that he was "deeply troubled" by Israel's decision to grant legal status to three settlement outposts in the occupied West Bank, describing the activity as illegal under international law.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/24/us-palestinians-israel-settlements-un-idUSBRE83N16I20120424


    China urges Israel to cease settlement construction

    “China is always against Israeli establishment of Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestinian territory,” ... “We urge Israel to cease the settlement construction immediately, work actively in collaboration with the efforts of the international community to promote peace, and create conditions for the resumption of Palestinian-Israeli peace negotiation.”

    http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2012/04/china-backs-efforts-to-break-palestinian-israeli-deadlock/


    Turkey strongly condemns Israeli settlement activities
    Ankara. Turkey on Wednesday strongly condemned Israel's new settlement activities, saying that all its Jewish settlements in the occupied territories violate international law, an official statement said.

    http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n276557


    Jordan condemns Israeli settlement decision
    Jordanian Foreign Minister Nasser Judeh on Tuesday denounced Israel’s decision to legalize three settler outposts in the West Bank, during talks with US envoy David Hale.

    Jordan, which has a 1994 peace deal with the Jewish state, "condemns Israeli settlement activities as well as its unilateral measures," Judeh said at the meeting with Hale, state-run Petra news agency reported.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4220697,00.html


    Palestinians call on UN to stop Israeli settlement legalization
    The Palestinian UN observer Riyad Mansour denounced on Wednesday Israel's legalization of three unsanctioned West Bank settler outposts as an illegal attempt to entrench "its massive network of illegal settlements."

    ...

    Mansour called on the UN Security Council "to act immediately to address these continuing illegal, grave actions by Israel."

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinians-call-on-un-to-stop-israeli-settlement-legalization-1.426625


    All these political leaders do is profess concern for the Palestinians situation. What I'd like to know is when do they plan to exact a price for Israel's intransigence?


«134

Comments

  • #2
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    If America was remotely concerned about anything Israel does, they would simply do the one thing that would resolve all the problems in the Middle East with one fell swoop - pull the plug on all aid, financial and military, to the Zionist state.
    While Israel knows it can rely on the support of the only global hyperpower no matter what they do, they will do what they like, and what they like is genocidal ethnic cleansing and colonisation of Palestinian land.
    Nobody else has a meaningful say in this while the US supports Israel wholeheartedly. Although some countries show more bravery than others in standing up and protesting Israeli aggression, and thankfully our country is one of those.


  • #3
    Sergeant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,362 ✭✭✭Sergeant


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    If America was remotely concerned about anything Israel does, they would simply do the one thing that would resolve all the problems in the Middle East with one fell swoop - pull the plug on all aid, financial and military, to the Zionist state.

    Can you give examples as to how the Zionist state is causing the current problems in, say, Syria and Bahrain?


  • #4
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,672 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    If America was remotely concerned about anything Israel does, they would simply do the one thing that would resolve all the problems in the Middle East with one fell swoop - pull the plug on all aid, financial and military, to the Zionist state
    Really? All the problems in the Middle East are down to Israel? Interesting. Do continue and try to explain how exactly they are . . .


  • #5
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    If America was remotely concerned about anything Israel does, they would simply do the one thing that would resolve all the problems in the Middle East with one fell swoop - pull the plug on all aid, financial and military, to the Zionist state.
    ......

    Thats the kind of odd statement that undermines the palestinian case.


  • #6
    The Israeli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    OP, as a citizen of the country and despite of my support for the country, I want to say that I don't support the recognition of new settlements that complicate any future peace resolution and shake the trust between Israel and the PA.
    I just can say that those 3 are relatively old settlements that have been recognized by the state so far as "neighborhoods" of other settlements, and now are getting recognized as separate settlements. If this change has any operative influence I don't know, but I don't see a lot of good in it.


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  • #7
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    If America was remotely concerned about anything Israel does, they would simply do the one thing that would resolve all the problems in the Middle East with one fell swoop - pull the plug on all aid, financial and military, to the Zionist state.
    While Israel knows it can rely on the support of the only global hyperpower no matter what they do, they will do what they like, and what they like is genocidal ethnic cleansing and colonisation of Palestinian land.
    Nobody else has a meaningful say in this while the US supports Israel wholeheartedly. Although some countries show more bravery than others in standing up and protesting Israeli aggression, and thankfully our country is one of those.

    are you aware that obama is potrayed as not pro israel enough by certain quaters in the usa , despite the fact that he hasnt changed americas possition one iota , it seems he,s not down on his knees enough


  • #8
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    battle_hardend wrote: »
    are you aware that obama is potrayed as not pro israel enough by certain quaters in the usa , despite the fact that he hasnt changed americas possition one iota , it seems he,s not down on his knees enough

    I'm entirely aware of that, which appears highly ironic from the perspective outside of the AIPAC bubble.
    As for what destablilisation Israel is responsible for in the wider Arab world, it is likely we will never know. Were it not for a fluke, we would still be unaware of Mossad agents travelling to Dubai to murder Hamas officials on Irish passports. It's already evident that Mossad has a hand in Syria as we speak. They don't destablilise Bahrain because they operate there with impunity.
    Nodin, I don't think anything I can say or do can possibly undermine the Palestinian case. They've had their country stolen from them at gunpoint by invaders, a process which is still ongoing, and which has had as a side-effect enormous breaches of their human rights. There are those who think, for whatever reasons, that that is acceptable. There are those who do not. I am one who does not.


  • #9
    troposphere
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 174 ✭✭troposphere


    Damn you Israel!

    Assad devil soldiers bury a man alive


  • #10
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    I'm entirely aware of that, which appears highly ironic from the perspective outside of the AIPAC bubble.
    As for what destablilisation Israel is responsible for in the wider Arab world, it is likely we will never know. Were it not for a fluke, we would still be unaware of Mossad agents travelling to Dubai to murder Hamas officials on Irish passports. It's already evident that Mossad has a hand in Syria as we speak. They don't destablilise Bahrain because they operate there with impunity.
    Nodin, I don't think anything I can say or do can possibly undermine the Palestinian case. They've had their country stolen from them at gunpoint by invaders, a process which is still ongoing, and which has had as a side-effect enormous breaches of their human rights. There are those who think, for whatever reasons, that that is acceptable. There are those who do not. I am one who does not.

    Hahaha a russiatoday link, can you get something a bit more credible than that?


  • #11
    Tom Cruise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭Tom Cruise


    Both sides have done wrong hopefully we will see a Palestinian state alongside a Israeli state living in peace.Settlements are no good to either side.Nethanyahu needs to stop settlements if you read http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-government-petitions-high-court-to-postpone-evacuation-of-west-bank-outpost-1.426879
    the link you see that settlements are dividing people.Alot of Israelis are against Settlements.


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  • #12
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Hahaha a russiatoday link, can you get something a bit more credible than that?

    Google Eli Cohen and get back to me.

    Or there's Ha'aretz and Der Spiegel more recently.

    Or even Mossad's own internal communications.

    Anyhow, I don't see anything wrong with citing Russia Today. They're significantly more credible than US sources on the Middle East.


  • #13
    Memnoch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Israel has no interest in peace. They plan to usurp Palestine entirely and dislocate its people. In the process some of their citizens will die. This is a price they are happy to pay.

    The above is obvious by their actions.

    The only way they will stop is if they are forced to by International sanctions. This will not happen with the US veto at the UN. Internal US politics will prevent any justice for Israel's crimes.

    But then why should it? The US already did this to the Indians. They continue to invade and supplant regimes as suits their agenda. This is the world we live in. Bear witness to the true nature of humanity in all it's glory. For that is all there is.

    We watch an ongoing ethnic cleansing and the wiping out of a peoples and remain utterly powerless to stop it.


  • #14
    The Israeli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    @Memnoch, what do you know about the withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000 and from Gaza in 2005?
    What do you know about the 1993 Oslo agreements and the almost full autonomy of the PA in the A zones?
    Did you know that the former prime minister Ehud Olmert had put officially on the table the option for retreating from almost all the west bank including the arabs neighborhoods in Western Jerusalem with the suggestions of swapping some territories?
    My logic is that if Israel wanted to keep these territories and keep paying that prize, it would have..

    Of course you wouldn't blame Hizballah for their killing and kidnapping from within Israeli legal territories in 2006.
    You don't blame Hamas for rockets on Israeli cities (no, Israel doesn't fire deliberately on citizens. It has been proved by the fix to the Goldstone committee report when Israel was accused in doing it).
    You don't blame the PA, Arafat and the territories who were responsible for so many deaths of Israeli citizens, especially during the second intifada while Ehud Barak was in power when he had had a pretty liberal outlook. Try to backup suicide bombers. Let's hear you.

    You don't try to see both sides and understand why many Israelis might be very very suspicious towards the peace process.
    I'm against the recognition of the recent settlements but people like you who spread their one sided agenda aren't beneficial to peace and understanding neither.


  • #15
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    The Israeli wrote: »
    @Memnoch, what do you know about the withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000 and from Gaza in 2005?

    Better still, what right had Israel to occupy other sovereign territories in the first place?
    The Israeli wrote: »
    What do you know about the 1993 Oslo agreements and the almost full autonomy of the PA in the A zones?
    Did you know that the former prime minister Ehud Olmert had put officially on the table the option for retreating from almost all the west bank including the arabs neighborhoods in Western Jerusalem with the suggestions of swapping some territories?
    My logic is that if Israel wanted to keep these territories and keep paying that prize, it would have..

    Did he offer to honour the 1967 border? No.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    Of course you wouldn't blame Hizballah for their killing and kidnapping from within Israeli legal territories in 2006.

    Straw man. Memnoch has offered no comment on Hizbollah terrorism. You are putting words into his mouth to misrepresent him.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    You don't blame Hamas for rockets on Israeli cities (no, Israel doesn't fire deliberately on citizens. It has been proved by the fix to the Goldstone committee report when Israel was accused in doing it).

    Same straw man, now with added untruths.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/25/israel-white-phosphorus-gaza
    http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2002-10-08/news/0210080228_1_gaza-strip-israeli-army-commander-palestinian
    The Israeli wrote: »
    You don't blame the PA, Arafat and the territories who were responsible for so many deaths of Israeli citizens, especially during the second intifada while Ehud Barak was in power when he had had a pretty liberal outlook. Try to backup suicide bombers. Let's hear you.

    Same straw man again.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    You don't try to see both sides and understand why many Israelis might be very very suspicious towards the peace process.

    What peace process? The only process ongoing in Palestine is the colonisation of their country by hostile invaders.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    I'm against the recognition of the recent settlements but

    Why does there have to be a but? Do you support a return to the 1967 borders? If not, why not? Do you support the right of return for Palestinian refugees displaced from their homes at gunpoint during the Naqba? If not, why not?
    The Israeli wrote: »
    people like you who spread their one sided agenda aren't beneficial to peace and understanding neither.

    And back to the straw man for your conclusion. When you're done arguing with yourself and misrepresenting other posters, I'd be keen to hear your answers to my questions above.


  • #16
    cyberhog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 941 ✭✭✭cyberhog


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    What peace process? The only process ongoing in Palestine is the colonisation of their country by hostile invaders.

    +1

    Former Shin Bet chief made it very clear that Netanyahu is not interested in peace talks.
    “Forget the stories they tell you about how Abbas is not interested in negotiation,” said Diskin, adding: “We are not talking to the Palestinians because this government has no interest in negotiations."

    The former Shin Bet chief added: "I was there up to a year ago and I know from up-close what is happening. This government is not interested in solving anything with the Palestinians, and I say this certainty,” he added.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/former-shin-bet-chief-netanyahu-not-interested-in-peace-talks-1.426934


  • #17
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Israeli wrote: »
    .

    You don't try to see both sides and understand why many Israelis might be very very suspicious towards the peace process.
    I'm against the recognition of the recent settlements but people like you who spread their one sided agenda aren't beneficial to peace and understanding neither.


    ......no-one is forcing Israel to build settlements, so a list of the 'wrongs' of whatever group really have nothing to do with it.


  • #18
    The Israeli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Better still, what right had Israel to occupy other sovereign territories in the first place?
    The reasons that had brought Israel in the first place to Lebanon were to fight the Palestinian terror organizations that established vast arms bases there and committed many attacks on the Israeli northern border's villages and towns.
    The perception was to push back or destroy these organizations and establish an alliance with the Christian Lebanese in southern Lebanon.
    In the end, IDF had remained there keeping there outposts and bases for too many bloody years without real good results.
    Israel didn't wish to rule southern Lebanon, of course, and never had. Just to keep a security zone between itself and the terror organizations.
    In the end, as we know, this military decision turned to be a mistake.
    Just don't bull**** me as if it was for "expending" borders, ok..
    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Did he offer to honour the 1967 border? No.
    Do you really think that Israel would move hundreds of thousands people from their homes?
    He offered a pretty close and honest trade. Swapping territories is the logical solution to a problem like that. Moreover, getting back to the original 67' borders may cause Israel a major security inconvenience, like in the Jerusalem area. Have a look on the 67' map and read a bit about.
    Israel wants peace, but peace with security.. We don't play dice..
    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Straw man. Memnoch has offered no comment on Hizbollah terrorism. You are putting words into his mouth to misrepresent him.
    What? whose words? Do you know anything about the event?

    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Same straw man, now with added untruths.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/25/israel-white-phosphorus-gaza
    http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2002-10-08/news/0210080228_1_gaza-strip-israeli-army-commander-palestinian
    How many times the white phosphorus was used and how many got killed?
    No one got killed and it was used in legal weapons. Illumination bombs were fired too low by one commander. Mistake yes, a war crime? I doubt.
    Should this commander be punished? yes. An israeli policy? no way.
    You can give give me articles of Palestinians accuse Israel till tomorrow.
    The fact is that there are international reports about the Israeli actions there, and the most comprehensive of some have cleaned Israel of all the war crimes accusations. Furthermore, I know IDF a bit better than you do, and how the army fights...
    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    What peace process? The only process ongoing in Palestine is the colonisation of their country by hostile invaders.
    The only? well, you really know a lot about it, ah..
    Their country? Remind me when was the Palestinian country established.. I don't remember.. Ah 48.. Has it existed for real?? mm no.. Why? Ah they opened a war to prevent Israel from existing. ahmm
    From whom then Israel has taken the territory? Ah, from Jordan.
    Should Israel help the Palestinians to establish a state of their own? No doubt, if we want peace! On what territories? the ones that are similar to those ones that Jordan occupied in the Western benk in 48 - 67.
    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Why does there have to be a but? Do you support a return to the 1967 borders? If not, why not? Do you support the right of return for Palestinian refugees displaced from their homes at gunpoint during the Naqba? If not, why not?
    First of all, gunpoint or not, many of them had fled before the fighting in a war that they had began.
    Should their families return? Well, lets say that if millions of Palestinian would "return" to Israel, there won't be any Israel.
    Maybe, many people would like that to happen, but not me.
    Even Abu Mazen understands that and tends to agree with it. Are you more radical than he is?
    Cavehill Red wrote: »

    And back to the straw man for your conclusion. When you're done arguing with yourself and misrepresenting other posters, I'd be keen to hear your answers to my questions above.
    I have no idea who that straw man that you are constantly talking about is.
    I would like to talk to him about growing cabbage..


    You seem to be so one sided that I have no doubt that you won't be moved even by an inch by what I have said.
    You don't seek for a solution, you don't seek a middle ground, you don't know how and don't wish help bringing people to a common cause which should be Peace.
    Oh well...


  • #19
    The Israeli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Nodin wrote: »
    ......no-one is forcing Israel to build settlements, so a list of the 'wrongs' of whatever group really have nothing to do with it.

    And I have never said that Israel should build there.


  • #20
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Israeli wrote: »
    He offered a pretty close and honest trade. Swapping territories is the logical solution to a problem like that. Moreover, getting back to the original 67' borders may cause Israel a major security inconvenience, like in the Jerusalem area. Have a look on the 67' map and read a bit about.
    Israel wants peace, but peace with security.. We don't play dice.....

    Israel (or a section of it) wants land, peacefully or otherwise. As a result its continuously expanding and consolidating its presence in the Occupied territories at the expense of the populace there. As the consequences of Israels actions felt upon itself are negligible, it will not stop until it feels its reached the maximum optimum amount it can control in a sustainable fashion.


  • #21
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Th

    Do you really think that Israel would move hundreds of thousands people from their homes?
    ..

    "settlers" from their "colonies" would be a bit more accurate.


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  • #22
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Israel does not have a legitimate claim to sovereignty over a single square centimetre of land outside their original border.
    Particularly not when they are "claiming" it by simply bulldozing any annoying human beings who happen to ALREADY LIVE THERE.

    I don't buy the arguments about "Removing settlers from their homes" either. They had no problem removing Palestinians from their homes and they knew full well that they were moving into someone else's land when they chose to settle.

    I feel sympathy for those who were no doubt lied to and tricked into doing it by their extremist government but unfortunately, theft is still theft. Stolen property must be returned, regardless of whether or not the thief was mislead into taking part in the heist.


  • #23
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    The Israeli wrote: »
    The reasons that had brought Israel in the first place to Lebanon were to fight the Palestinian terror organizations that established vast arms bases there and committed many attacks on the Israeli northern border's villages and towns.
    The perception was to push back or destroy these organizations and establish an alliance with the Christian Lebanese in southern Lebanon.
    In the end, IDF had remained there keeping there outposts and bases for too many bloody years without real good results.
    Israel didn't wish to rule southern Lebanon, of course, and never had. Just to keep a security zone between itself and the terror organizations.
    In the end, as we know, this military decision turned to be a mistake.
    Just don't bull**** me as if it was for "expending" borders, ok..

    "Israel" has done nothing but seek to expand their borders ever since the first Zionists immigrated to Palestine in the Nineteenth century. The core of the Zionist project, admitted by a succession of Israeli leaders, is the establishment of 'Eretz Israel', a quasi-religious belief that they are somehow entitled to a significantly larger tract of land than even that they currently hold, due to some deal struck with an imaginary sky daddy millennia ago.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    Do you really think that Israel would move hundreds of thousands people from their homes?

    They don't have a problem moving Palestinians from their homes. They've been doing that for decades.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    He offered a pretty close and honest trade. Swapping territories is the logical solution to a problem like that. Moreover, getting back to the original 67' borders may cause Israel a major security inconvenience, like in the Jerusalem area. Have a look on the 67' map and read a bit about.
    Israel wants peace, but peace with security.. We don't play dice..

    I've seen the 67 map. The fact that Palestinians are prepared to accept the loss of much of their territory seems to me an incredibly generous position, given what they've suffered at the hands of the immigrant invaders. The fact that this still isn't enough for Israel confirms the 'Eretz Israel' project at the core of the nation's ideology, and proves that Israel has no interest in "peace". They want the land to themselves.

    The Israeli wrote: »
    What? whose words? Do you know anything about the event?

    You claimed that Memnoch said things he has not commented on, in order to dismiss what he had said. That's straw man logic and it is frowned upon in debating because it is dishonest.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    How many times the white phosphorus was used and how many got killed?
    No one got killed and it was used in legal weapons. Illumination bombs were fired too low by one commander. Mistake yes, a war crime? I doubt.
    Should this commander be punished? yes. An israeli policy? no way.
    You can give give me articles of Palestinians accuse Israel till tomorrow.
    The fact is that there are international reports about the Israeli actions there, and the most comprehensive of some have cleaned Israel of all the war crimes accusations. Furthermore, I know IDF a bit better than you do, and how the army fights...

    Actually, forgive me but I'm going to trust respected international media like The Guardian over an Israeli on this one.

    The Israeli wrote: »
    The only? well, you really know a lot about it, ah..
    Their country? Remind me when was the Palestinian country established.. I don't remember.. Ah 48.. Has it existed for real?? mm no.. Why? Ah they opened a war to prevent Israel from existing. ahmm

    Yes, their country. The land they had inhabited without interruption for millennia. Not the country of fake jews from Russia, or New York emigres. Not the convenient dumping ground for Europeans fleeing the Nazi holocaust. Their country.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    From whom then Israel has taken the territory? Ah, from Jordan.

    My country has been occupied and administrated by Britain too in the past. That no more entitled Britain to give Ireland to another people than it entitled them to give Palestine to invading Jews. The land belongs to those with uninterrupted settlement of the region for centuries.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    Should Israel help the Palestinians to establish a state of their own? No doubt, if we want peace! On what territories? the ones that are similar to those ones that Jordan occupied in the Western benk in 48 - 67.

    So you do or you don't accept the 67 border? You're contradicting yourself here.

    The Israeli wrote: »
    First of all, gunpoint or not, many of them had fled before the fighting in a war that they had began.

    A favourite origin myth of Israel. No, they had not. They were fleeing for their lives. In any case, stealing from people when they are not present is still stealing.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    Should their families return? Well, lets say that if millions of Palestinian would "return" to Israel, there won't be any Israel.

    No, there wouldn't be an apartheid state of Israel. But there could be a secular pluralist state encompassing all who currently live in the territory of Palestine. They might even still call it Israel.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    Maybe, many people would like that to happen, but not me.
    Even Abu Mazen understands that and tends to agree with it. Are you more radical than he is?

    It's radical to oppose theft and genocide, now? Your values are skewed if you believe that.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    I have no idea who that straw man that you are constantly talking about is.
    I would like to talk to him about growing cabbage..

    A straw man is where you set up an argument, attribute it dishonestly to others, and then rebut it instead of what they actually said.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    You seem to be so one sided that I have no doubt that you won't be moved even by an inch by what I have said.

    I'm not moved by what you say because like far too many Israelis, you pose as desiring peace and a mutual solution when in fact your true desires are nothing of the sort. Furthermore, you have demonstrated yourself to be a dishonest debater on this thread already.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    You don't seek for a solution, you don't seek a middle ground, you don't know how and don't wish help bringing people to a common cause which should be Peace.
    Oh well...

    There can be no "middle ground" so long as Israel continues to annex land, murder the natives and hide behind US aid and military supremacy while doing so. All there can be is giving ground, or more accurately, stealing it.
    A common cause requires a common nation. My solution is a one-state solution, shorn of the apartheid, militarist, and frankly immoral nature of the current sectarian theocracy in Israel.


  • #24
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Sometimes pictures speak better than words. I'm not going to post murder porn of dead Palestinian civilians, because that can be found in tragic plenty elsewhere online. Instead, I offer this illuminating series of maps:

    palestines.jpg


  • #25
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,672 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    I've seen the 67 map. The fact that Palestinians are prepared to accept the loss of much of their territory seems to me an incredibly generous position, given what they've suffered at the hands of the immigrant invaders
    Oh pass the bucket.
    Had acceptance of the original UN-endorsed and ratified plan happened in the first place, who knows what would have happened. Anything would have been better than the debris from a Cold War theatre and its aftermath in the region.
    When a non-hardline party is elected in a non-coalition situation and does not rely on hardliners for swings in majority votes then things will change from Israel's side.
    When Hamas lets go its grip on Gaza (no, it has not abandoned any element of its charter, despite disinformation constantly put out) and calls off its war with Israel then things will change on the other side.

    Until then, nothing will give and people who haven't even flown over the region will still pontificate with one-eyed, cherry-picked tosh from the internet.


  • #26
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    If America was remotely concerned about anything Israel does, they would simply do the one thing that would resolve all the problems in the Middle East with one fell swoop - pull the plug on all aid, financial and military, to the Zionist state.
    While Israel knows it can rely on the support of the only global hyperpower no matter what they do, they will do what they like, and what they like is genocidal ethnic cleansing and colonisation of Palestinian land.
    Nobody else has a meaningful say in this while the US supports Israel wholeheartedly. Although some countries show more bravery than others in standing up and protesting Israeli aggression, and thankfully our country is one of those.
    That won't be too long.

    O'Bama is a Muslim by blood, he will soon turn on Israel

    [MOD]Keep it sane or take it elsewhere please.[/MOD]


  • #27
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Oh pass the bucket.
    Had acceptance of the original UN-endorsed and ratified plan happened in the first place, who knows what would have happened. Anything would have been better than the debris from a Cold War theatre and its aftermath in the region.
    When a non-hardline party is elected in a non-coalition situation and does not rely on hardliners for swings in majority votes then things will change from Israel's side.
    When Hamas lets go its grip on Gaza (no, it has not abandoned any element of its charter, despite disinformation constantly put out) and calls off its war with Israel then things will change on the other side.

    Until then, nothing will give and people who haven't even flown over the region will still pontificate with one-eyed, cherry-picked tosh from the internet.

    We've seen this goalpost moving from Israel for their entire existence: Just another concession before peace. No, not that peace partner, find us another that's more acceptable to us. We won't talk without certain (ever-changing) preconditions. And so on and so on.
    It's basically just stalling for time, all the while stealing more and more Palestinian land. The tactic is decades old at this stage and utterly transparent, and quite shameless, as they can do it with impunity knowing that American might backs up their every wrongdoing.
    Israel is a sectarian, racist, genocidal apartheid theocracy of invaders into the region, determined to displace the local populace in their entirety. They have never shown any interest in peaceful coexistence or co-operation with those they seek to supplant. You only need to look at the maps above to see that.


  • #28
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,672 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    We've seen this goalpost moving from Israel for their entire existence: Just another concession before peace. No, not that peace partner, find us another that's more acceptable to us. We won't talk without certain (ever-changing) preconditions. And so on and so on.
    It's basically just stalling for time, all the while stealing more and more Palestinian land. The tactic is decades old at this stage and utterly transparent, and quite shameless, as they can do it with impunity knowing that American might backs up their every wrongdoing.
    Israel is a sectarian, racist, genocidal apartheid theocracy of invaders into the region, determined to displace the local populace in their entirety. They have never shown any interest in peaceful coexistence or co-operation with those they seek to supplant. You only need to look at the maps above to see that.
    Far too one-eyed, blinkered or tilted to be taken seriously, I'm afaid. As if one party to the bloodshed was to blame throughout the past. Not one mention whatsoever of anyone else culpable in the region or involved by proxy. When are the Gaza elections ever going to happen? What happened to the opposition in Gaza? How are Pasdaran still allowed to operate in Lebanon and Syria?

    Your final paragraph itself indicates very little knowledge of Israel or Israeli society except for what you choose to pluck.


  • #29
    The Israeli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    .....
    I'm so sorry, but I feel that we aren't getting each other at all...

    You just don't know the history but still argue..
    I present facts, and you present me sorts of conspiracy theories.
    I want a peace solution that both sides will be content with.
    I have no idea what you want. Maybe to see Israel being wiped out, as you don't present a solution.
    So listen, Israel will never agree to your terms, because they are the terms of Hamas. If you were in charge of the situation, the conflict would have lasted forever.

    btw, that map picture is false. about a year and a half ago I debated over it and presented other maps.. but ok..
    Let's just say that a major part of the pretty good green area has never belonged to the Palestinians in the first place.


  • #30
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Let's just say that a major part of the pretty good green area has never belonged to the Palestinians in the first place.

    Yes, it did. They were ethnically cleansed by Zionists soon after. You position btw, is just as extreme as Hamas, as you clearly deny historical fact, when it suits you. The Palestinians lived there, and that land was taken from them. The land being a part of the Ottoman empire and various other empires before that, is no excuse for another group of people to kick them out of there homes and take the land.

    That is a well established historical fact. The only people who deny it now, are exteme Zionists (who want to justify ethnic cleansing), who like to deny what was done to the Palestinians, and believe they have a God given right to the land, and anyone who just so happens to live there be damned. That mentality still exists today, with the non-stop settlement expansion, that Israel shows no interest of stopping.


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  • #31
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    The Israeli wrote: »
    I'm so sorry, but I feel that we aren't getting each other at all...

    You just don't know the history but still argue..
    I present facts, and you present me sorts of conspiracy theories.

    Actually, far from offering facts, you're demonstrably the most dishonest debater on this thread, as your straw man posturing earlier indicates. I challenge you to demonstrate a single 'conspiracy theory' I have offered.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    I want a peace solution that both sides will be content with.

    Might as well wish for the moon on a piece of string. Israel does not want a peace solution. For there to be peace, Israel has to fundamentally change its aims.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    I have no idea what you want. Maybe to see Israel being wiped out, as you don't present a solution.

    You weren't paying attention. I support a single secular state solution for the whole region of former mandate Palestine.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    So listen, Israel will never agree to your terms, because they are the terms of Hamas. If you were in charge of the situation, the conflict would have lasted forever.

    I'm not offering any terms. In that regard, I'm just like Israel. Oh, and in case you haven't noticed, the conflict HAS lasted forever.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    btw, that map picture is false. about a year and a half ago I debated over it and presented other maps.. but ok..

    Prove that. I know you're wrong, but I'm keen to see what doctored maps you've got for my entertainment.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    Let's just say that a major part of the pretty good green area has never belonged to the Palestinians in the first place.

    Or we could tell the truth and admit that the green area WAS indigenous Palestinian land, as surveyed by the British.


This discussion has been closed.
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