Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 (End of March 2012 onwards)

Leiva · 23-04-2012 02:37PM

2-0 silly pen

ASOT · 23-04-2012 02:37PM

2-0, coady gave away a peno after mendy slipped!

SlickRic · 23-04-2012 02:38PM

Coady has regressed terribly this year.

NabyLadistheman · 23-04-2012 02:41PM

Newcastle were beating Utd 3-0 & lost 5-3, all is not lost yet!

murpho999 · 23-04-2012 02:51PM

All the Torres stuff, yes he was great, but we did well to sell him in my opinion, He is not the player he was in that video and never will be again!

Also, whatever the old owners promised him had nothing to do with new owners and Kenny, and I think he treated the club shabbily how he left and also was very disrespectul to LFC fans in his first Chelsea interview so he went down in my estimation from then.

Kess73 · 23-04-2012 02:57PM

PaulieC wrote: »

Kess I'd consider you a balanced poster on this forum - and you know I'm not trolling when I say - are you fúcking serious putting that on Carroll???

I've no problem with him shooting when he's isolated, sometimes he gets into space where nobody else reacts, or works an opening that nobody expects but yesterday, and on a number of other occasions this season Suarez has taken the selfish route - and before anybody mentions that it's in a strikers nature to be this way, yes it is, but strikers will more often that not give the ball to a man in a better position - most certainly if that person is roughly 5 yards from an open net.

I think Suarez is a brilliant player but he could have been the difference between 3 points, a point or no points yesterday just as much as Glen Johnson and what gets me is Johnson will get loads of stick for his mistake yesterday (rightly so) yet Luis can do no wrong with the fans despite when he clearly deserves criticism

I'm not putting it all on Carroll but Carroll is meant to be a number 9. He is meant to be a striker, and I would assume that he is meant to be in and around the six yard box more often than not when we are attacking.

He did work hard for most of the game yesterday, and he did put in a good shift, buit his positioning is bloody awful, and in terms of being a consistent goal threat he is almost non existent. People can say that he is trying and that he is making space and what not, but he was bought to score goals and his four league goals this season says he that he has been a failure on that front.

Suarez has never been overly prolific (save for one amazing season) throughout his career to date, but he has always been a top class foil when he has been the second striker/centre forward to a quality finisher/main striker.

Liverpool simply does not have a mediocre main striker let alone a quality one, so it makes sense that we would not see the best of Suarez as a result given that so much of his play needs a quality main striker to take advantage of it.

I think Suarez had a rate in Holland that was something like 1 goal for every 9 or 10 chances/shots he had, but he had a quality finisher in front of him that took advantage of the space Suarez created and also of the chances that Suarez made. For Liverpool I think that Suarez is somewhere around a goal for every 13 or so shots. That means his goals to chance rate is only a little worse at Liverpool than it was in Holland, but the goal scoring by those around him in attacking positions at Liverpool is far inferior than it was in Holland.

Even for the national team Suarez comes in at around 1 goals for every 10 or 11 shots, but again he has stikers around him that can read how Suarez plays and who work hard to be where they think the ball will end up.

At present I think Suarez is wasted at Liverpool because there is nobody at the club that plays the intelligent football that the likes of Suarez thrives on and who is good enough to score a bucketload of goals helped by work of Suarez and the space created by him.

Maxi has shown how a clever player than benefit from Suarez. He reads what Suarez does, and makes himself open for passes by anticipating where Suarez will put the ball. He is also very good at running into the empty space that a defender leaves behind when that defender tries to get involved in double marking Suarez.

Put a quality striker in the Liverpool team with Suarez and plenty of goals will follow. Even put a decent striker in there and I would expect him to notch 12 to 15 league goals beside Suarez.

Suarez is not perfect, but he is the best attacking player we have and the one we should be building around up front, whilst using a style of play that means he could be replaced by another quality CAM or second stiker down the line.

Mr Alan · 23-04-2012 02:57PM

Andy Carroll wrote: »

Is it not the case that the Suarez deal was in the pipeline long before Kenny took over?

Nope.

We'd looked at him (like most clubs in Europe) & I'm pretty sure Rafa asked Kenny to go & look at him while Rafa was still at the helm, but we'd never made a move.

Mr Alan · 23-04-2012 03:01PM

Kess73 wrote: »

I think Suarez had a rate in Holland that was something like 1 goal for every 9 or 10 chances/shots he had

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSndOwEutZdKz3pfh7rjAJvrV6ku9GSO1OTWkje4l9BEE9_HhuD

Glico Man · 23-04-2012 03:01PM

SlickRic wrote: »

Coady has regressed terribly this year.

He needs to be playing first team football in the Championship or League 1 at this stage. Reserve team football is a very poor standard. In fact, we should be loaning out our promising players far more regularly so that they do improve.

Blatter · 23-04-2012 03:01PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Nope.

We'd looked at him (like most clubs in Europe) & I'm pretty sure Rafa asked Kenny to go & look at him while Rafa was still at the helm, but we'd never made a move.

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Liverpool-Roy-Hodgson-reveals-Luis-Suarez-was-already-a-target-when-he-was-manager-article822677.html

And tbf I would believe that because you were linked with him heavily enough for a while before Kenny got the job.

Mr Alan · 23-04-2012 03:04PM

Blatter wrote: »

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Liverpool-Roy-Hodgson-reveals-Luis-Suarez-was-already-a-target-when-he-was-manager-article822677.html

And tbf I would believe that because you were linked with him heavily enough for a while before Kenny got the job.

The Hodge can **** right off. We were looking at him before that too.

Strongbow10 · 23-04-2012 03:07PM

Lads I have quoted the below post from another thread and posted it here. The post is in response to Kenny's interview yesterday hinting that he may step aside if its a good thing for LFC.

Sorry for not asking Jayob but I thought the post made alot of sense and would like to ask other supporters about their interpretation of "The Liverpool Way".

Firstly, what is it exactly?

and secondly, Is it still relevant in 2012? Or romantic but redundant?

Jayob10 wrote: »

to me that seems like Kenny in politician mode. Tugging the heart strings and preaching the good word of Liverpool to the masses. And the fans lap that stuff up.
Any word of Shankly reminds the fans of how great the club is. The club they support.

Can someone tell me what these "Principles of Shankly" are? I'm a liverpool fan, and I mean no disrespect to the great man, and the foundations he laid. Paisley carried it on, Joe Fagan did his bit and Kenny added to the bootroom legacy.

But the empire crumbled. And the game has changed.

What exactly is this "Liverpool Way" ? Other than romantic guff to make it seem like we are a better club to anyone else? I'm baffled, is it a state of mind or what? Applauding opposition goalkeepers when they run to mind the net at the Kop end?

Its something of very little substance.

The only thing recaptured from the old days is Kenny (like Shanks) being able to hynotize the hardcore support, by spouting romantic nonsene about Liverpool FC.

missingtime · 23-04-2012 03:07PM

You are all forgetting it was ~Rebel~ who set the ball rolling regarding Suarez

Kess73 · 23-04-2012 03:08PM

Gbear wrote: »

We didn't really need a plan B though, did we? We certainly created enough chances. If we had a plan B we would've just missed the sitters that that plan created.
And yes maybe had we been playing a better team we would've been mauled, but we weren't.
Good teams don't win all the time by playing perfectly.

I just don't think it's possible with our turnover to become stuck in mid table. We've got a better defence when fit (and carra will probably drop below Coates next year) than those currently around us.

There's only 5 teams in the league that have players of the same cailibre as Lucas, Suarez and possibly still Gerrard.

I think with Kenny and the management they made one big mistake and that was leaving us short of goals.
That's their fault.

I don't think there's much more that could've been done with those resources once that mistake was made.
They could've strengthened in January but perhaps money wasn't made available. We can't really say for sure.

We did need a plan B though. We were attacking and attacking and nothing was working. All the attacks started to get predictable and there was nothing changing on the score front in our favour.

A change of formation might have done the trick. Maybe putting Kuyt up front instead of Carroll and bringing Bellamy on so that there was an attacking quartet of Suarez, Maxi, Bellamy, and Kuyt in place.

As for our turnover making it impossible for us to become a mid table club? Three years we have been a midtable club ( anything from 6th to 15th is midtable imho) now. There are other clubs who laboured in that zone for a long time who can point to nice turnovers as well. Spurs are a very well run club and have been for quite some time. Did not stop them from hanging around that midtable area alot. Newcastle are a club that takes in quite a bit of cash. Did not stop them from being like a yo-yo in terms of divisions let alone staying a mid table club in the top division.

No I don't think our turnover will be enough to stop us becoming a club that stays midtable more often than not. If the player, manager, tactics and attitudes are not right then turnover is not going to put points on the board for us.Something has to give this summer (and I fcuking hate that every summer we have to talk about something needing to give or how X amount of players are needed) in a big way, otherwise we will be looking at 4 seasons in a row scrapping to finish as high as we can in the midtable race rather than any realistic chance of being in the top 4 shake up copme the final month or two of the season.

missingtime · 23-04-2012 03:12PM

We shouldn't have taken of Spearing either. West Brom had much more of the ball when he we went off.

I like Shelvey but it was the wrong decision imo.

billymitchell · 23-04-2012 03:15PM

Until we win the league, we will always be a couple of players short in the summer. Even when we won the champions league or the year we got to the final, we still went into the summer needing a couple of players.
Unfortunately, I cant see us winning the league for a good few years to come.

Super-Rush · 23-04-2012 03:16PM

Get in there.

1-2 now.

Ngoo.

SlickRic · 23-04-2012 03:17PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

The Hodge can **** right off. We were looking at him before that too.

to be fair to Hodge, he doesn't say anything that isn't true.

while he was manager, he went to see Suarez, and the club were interested in buying him. there's nothing wrong there, and he's not even trying to get credit for it from what I can see.

i hated his reign as much as the next man, but not EVERYTHING he did was horrible, just the vast majority. he's allowed to say he and Kenny had a look at Suarez while he was in charge.

D'Agger · 23-04-2012 03:18PM

Kess73 wrote: »

I'm not putting it all on Carroll but Carroll is meant to be a number 9. He is meant to be a striker, and I would assume that he is meant to be in and around the six yard box more often than not when we are attacking.

He did work hard for most of the game yesterday, and he did put in a good shift, buit his positioning is bloody awful, and in terms of being a consistent goal threat he is almost non existent. People can say that he is trying and that he is making space and what not, but he was bought to score goals and his four league goals this season says he that he has been a failure on that front.

Suarez has never been overly prolific (save for one amazing season) throughout his career to date, but he has always been a top class foil when he has been the second striker/centre forward to a quality finisher/main striker.

Liverpool simply does not have a mediocre main striker let alone a quality one, so it makes sense that we would not see the best of Suarez as a result given that so much of his play needs a quality main striker to take advantage of it.

I think Suarez had a rate in Holland that was something like 1 goal for every 9 or 10 chances/shots he had, but he had a quality finisher in front of him that took advantage of the space Suarez created and also of the chances that Suarez made. For Liverpool I think that Suarez is somewhere around a goal for every 13 or so shots. That means his goals to chance rate is only a little worse at Liverpool than it was in Holland, but the goal scoring by those around him in attacking positions at Liverpool is far inferior than it was in Holland.

Even for the national team Suarez comes in at around 1 goals for every 10 or 11 shots, but again he has stikers around him that can read how Suarez plays and who work hard to be where they think the ball will end up.

At present I think Suarez is wasted at Liverpool because there is nobody at the club that plays the intelligent football that the likes of Suarez thrives on and who is good enough to score a bucketload of goals helped by work of Suarez and the space created by him.

Maxi has shown how a clever player than benefit from Suarez. He reads what Suarez does, and makes himself open for passes by anticipating where Suarez will put the ball. He is also very good at running into the empty space that a defender leaves behind when that defender tries to get involved in double marking Suarez.

Put a quality striker in the Liverpool team with Suarez and plenty of goals will follow. Even put a decent striker in there and I would expect him to notch 12 to 15 league goals beside Suarez.

Suarez is not perfect, but he is the best attacking player we have and the one we should be building around up front, whilst using a style of play that means he could be replaced by another quality CAM or second stiker down the line.

I do genuinely agree with what you've said there for the most part.

He is ahead of Carroll mentally - he's about quick one-twos etc. Carroll tends to be a bit of a sledgehammer on the other hand.

At the same time I do think you've missed my point somewhat - I was saying Suarez has been poor with regard to being a team player - the opportunities yesterday where he could have passed, he didn't - maybe he would have done so in an Ajax jersey, maybe he didn't pass because he didn't see Carroll (which I really doubt!) or maybe he just doesn't trust his other strikers to score.

Whatever it was, he took the wrong option and he's done so countless times this season, to the detriment of the team.

You're definitely right about Luis making space for a foil to exploit, and you're right we don't have that atm - but when he has the ball and the option to pass or shoot he's going to shoot even if there's players in better positions and it's something that he desperately needs to cut out of his game imo

Kess73 · 23-04-2012 03:28PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Just his Ajax stats for ya.

07/08 6.4 shots per goal (rounded up from 17 goals from 108 shots)

08/09 9 shots per goal (rounded up from 22 goals from 197 shots)

09/10 7.9 shots per goal (rounded up from 35 goals from 275 shots)

10/11 14.4 shots per goal. (rounded up from 7 goals from 101 shots)

6.4 + 9 + 7.9 +14.4 = 37.7. Divide by 4 and you get an average of 9.4 shots per goal over his time at Ajax.

Now his minutes per shot, minutes per goals, assists, secondary assists etc etc are all available online as are the same stats for his strike partners during his times at Groningen, Ajax, Liverpool, and Uraguay.

Easy to find if one has an interest in the actual stats on the player and on the players he plays with, as the strikers he plays with can be looked at over time in terms of their own stats with and without Suarez.

Kess73 · 23-04-2012 03:33PM

PaulieC wrote: »

I do genuinely agree with what you've said there for the most part.

He is ahead of Carroll mentally - he's about quick one-twos etc. Carroll tends to be a bit of a sledgehammer on the other hand.

At the same time I do think you've missed my point somewhat - I was saying Suarez has been poor with regard to being a team player - the opportunities yesterday where he could have passed, he didn't - maybe he would have done so in an Ajax jersey, maybe he didn't pass because he didn't see Carroll (which I really doubt!) or maybe he just doesn't trust his other strikers to score.

Whatever it was, he took the wrong option and he's done so countless times this season, to the detriment of the team.

You're definitely right about Luis making space for a foil to exploit, and you're right we don't have that atm - but when he has the ball and the option to pass or shoot he's going to shoot even if there's players in better positions and it's something that he desperately needs to cut out of his game imo

I got what you were saying about how you thought that maybe he was not doing well with regards being a team player, but my arguement is that when he has sub par players around him that going on his own is probably the best option in his mind rather than haviong to look for a stiker that does not seem to have any football brains at all and who is generally lingering outside the 18 yard box.

Put a quality player in with other quality players and there is a good chance he will excel. But put a quality player in with average to poor players and he risks being dragged down to their level more than them being brought up to his. That for me is what I think is happening to Suarez in relation to our other attacking players. One top class attacker and sub standard attacking players (for the most part) around him in terms of ability and certainly in terms of game intelligence

Reekwind · 23-04-2012 03:39PM

PaulieC wrote: »

At the same time I do think you've missed my point somewhat - I was saying Suarez has been poor with regard to being a team player - the opportunities yesterday where he could have passed, he didn't - maybe he would have done so in an Ajax jersey, maybe he didn't pass because he didn't see Carroll (which I really doubt!) or maybe he just doesn't trust his other strikers to score

I do think that there's a case to be made that Suarez is trying to do too much by himself. This is more a reflection of the quality of his teammates however then himself

D'Agger · 23-04-2012 03:45PM

Kess73 wrote: »

I got what you were saying about how you thought that maybe he was not doing well with regards being a team player, but my arguement is that when he has sub par players around him that going on his own is probably the best option in his mind rather than haviong to look for a stiker that does not seem to have any football brains at all and who is generally lingering outside the 18 yard box.

Any other day of the week I'd agree with that point - but going by the match I watched yesterday it's sounding like a cop out tbh Kess - while at the same time I feel bad for continually singling out one passage of play to make my point (I know there were more instances) - but he was on the end line, two unmarked strikers less than ten yards out and he went for goal - you mentioned earlier about players giving up the ghost and not putting it in for the club yesterday - Suarez is just as guilty for what he did time and time again yesterday - he put himself ahead of the team and if Kenny didn't love him so much he'd give him a bollicking I'd hope!

Put a quality player in with other quality players and there is a good chance he will excel. But put a quality player in with average to poor players and he risks being dragged down to their level more than them being brought up to his. That for me is what I think is happening to Suarez in relation to our other attacking players. One top class attacker and sub standard attacking players (for the most part) around him in terms of ability and certainly in terms of game intelligence

Agreed - he's not bettering himself atm, we need better players around him, but this has been said so much that the cows have come home and ****ed off again.

Bring on the end of the season basically

Super-Rush · 23-04-2012 03:48PM

Straight red for Suso.

Very very soft.

Gbear · 23-04-2012 03:48PM

Kess73 wrote: »

We did need a plan B though. We were attacking and attacking and nothing was working. All the attacks started to get predictable and there was nothing changing on the score front in our favour.

A change of formation might have done the trick. Maybe putting Kuyt up front instead of Carroll and bringing Bellamy on so that there was an attacking quartet of Suarez, Maxi, Bellamy, and Kuyt in place.

Missing the sitters we missed wasn't down to our plan not working and there's little evidence that a plan b would have resulted in us not missing other sitters.
It wasn't that we were unlucky or "had a bad day", we're **** at scoring goals. There was nobody in the team that started yesterday that can be relied upon to score.

Kess73 wrote: »

As for our turnover making it impossible for us to become a mid table club? Three years we have been a midtable club ( anything from 6th to 15th is midtable imho) now. There are other clubs who laboured in that zone for a long time who can point to nice turnovers as well. Spurs are a very well run club and have been for quite some time. Did not stop them from hanging around that midtable area alot. Newcastle are a club that takes in quite a bit of cash. Did not stop them from being like a yo-yo in terms of divisions let alone staying a mid table club in the top division.

There are only 2 clubs that can compete with us turn-over wise (and another 2 with the money cheat). We're not Spurs or Newcastle. They don't have shirt and kit sponsors anywhere near what we do. They don't have the worldwide fanbase that we do.
Newcastle went down through spectacularly bad management. I don't think FSG are as bad as Ashley.
I also don't think Kenny is a bad enough manager to keep us sittin in mid table.
I think we've seen enough in our style of play that we can be a very good team. We just failed to get a goalscorer last year.

Kess73 wrote: »

No I don't think our turnover will be enough to stop us becoming a club that stays midtable more often than not. If the player, manager, tactics and attitudes are not right then turnover is not going to put points on the board for us.Something has to give this summer (and I fcuking hate that every summer we have to talk about something needing to give or how X amount of players are needed) in a big way, otherwise we will be looking at 4 seasons in a row scrapping to finish as high as we can in the midtable race rather than any realistic chance of being in the top 4 shake up copme the final month or two of the season.

We're disproportionately bad at scoring. Really really bad.
I think people are sometimes over-complicating things.
All the tiny little faults they pick are a case of bias. Do you think other managers don't make mistakes? Do you think other teams don't have off days or games where they don't try enough?

Any fault is legitimate to bring up but I think sometimes, when doing that, some on here can't see the wood for the trees and vastly overestimate what effect the more minor problems (like carrying Henderson or Spearing not being "good enough") have on us when contrasted to the big one of lacking a deadicated goalscorer (or perhaps 3 competent ones like suarez).
Those kinds of problem are the kinds of ones I'd want a manager challenging for the league to be ironing out.

You see the likes of Guardiola working in those kinds of margins. If they win 5-1 he's not saying "yay, we scored 5", he's saying "what the ****, we conceded."

We've had that problem from the start and I don't believe, having made a mistake, Kenny has been given the chance to rectify it, as I believe he can.

ASOT · 23-04-2012 03:48PM

how the hell is that a red card?

opr · 23-04-2012 03:52PM

ASOT wrote: »

how the hell is that a red card?

Peter Beardsley even telling the Ref that it was a terrible decision.

Opr

ASOT · 23-04-2012 03:54PM

opr wrote: »

Peter Beardsley even telling the Ref that it was a terrible decision.

Opr

That off the ball challenge just there was more deserving of a red....

Super-Rush · 23-04-2012 03:55PM

The ref was a fcuking joke.

Jesus Wept · 23-04-2012 04:05PM

Blatter wrote: »

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Liverpool-Roy-Hodgson-reveals-Luis-Suarez-was-already-a-target-when-he-was-manager-article822677.html

And tbf I would believe that because you were linked with him heavily enough for a while before Kenny got the job.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Nope.

We'd looked at him (like most clubs in Europe) & I'm pretty sure Rafa asked Kenny to go & look at him while Rafa was still at the helm, but we'd never made a move.

Mr Alan wrote: »

The Hodge can **** right off. We were looking at him before that too.

Right........... but you are still attributing the relative success of the Suarez signing to Kenny... fair enough...

Anyway, it doesn't matter.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 (End of March 2012 onwards)

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