STOVES questions and answers here(see mod note in post 1)

guinness queen · 12-04-2012 06:49PM

Thanks very much Stove Fan, that is exactly what I thought and I will pass this on to the builder. I will let you know the result. Again, your help is really appreciated.

New build in sight · 13-04-2012 11:33PM

Hi Stove Fan

I have posted elsewhere on this topic, (probably incorrectly so) but i have read through your advice that you have provided in this forum and you sound like someone that could offer us some advice...

What is your experience with double side stoves that have a boiler. We need a Double sided stove to heat an open plan area of approx 12m x 5m and with rads upstairs approx 6 rads (maybe doubled, its a new build)

Also last question.... can a stove be hooked up to UFH (downstairs)?

We are installing oil. And we will have solar (i think).

Many thanks in advance for any advice.

Stove Fan · 14-04-2012 12:21AM

New build in sight wrote: »

Hi Stove Fan

I have posted elsewhere on this topic, (probably incorrectly so) but i have read through your advice that you have provided in this forum and you sound like someone that could offer us some advice...

What is your experience with double side stoves that have a boiler. We need a Double sided stove to heat an open plan area of approx 12m x 5m and with rads upstairs approx 6 rads (maybe doubled, its a new build)

Also last question.... can a stove be hooked up to UFH (downstairs)?

We are installing oil. And we will have solar (i think).

Many thanks in advance for any advice.

Hi:) I have no experience in double sided stoves unfortunately:(

What you really need is a plumber to visit to calculate the heat loss of the building and calculate how many KW you need to heat the 6 rads and large open plan room.
From an online stove calculator it says 10kw is required to heat the 10mx5m room. It could be much, much less depending on how much insulation there is. The plumber will calculate the size of the rads needed for each room and the heat required to heat the open space taking into account the insulation and heat loss:)
I dont know of any large boilered double sided inset stoves:(

You would be best to use an accumulator (thermal store) to connect your oil boiler, boiler stove and solar panels:D.

You can then run underfloor heating from the thermal store from the boiler stove and oil. This is probably your best method. Your plumber will discuss this. Good luck with the build.

Stove Fan:)

LadyLancalot · 14-04-2012 06:31PM

Can anyone tell me if it's ok to burn lignite in a wood burning stove?

Guy in the fuel depot where we get our wood says it's fine but I'm worried I'll damage the stove

nyone know??

LL

heinbloed · 14-04-2012 08:41PM

Ask the installer.

There are several factors to be considered: suitability of the stove, the flue gas outlet, the chimney. The entire istallation must be suitable.
Get a heating engineer in to check the system and to certify the operation.

Shopfloor talks are not covering the operator's responsibility.

New build in sight · 14-04-2012 09:27PM

Stove Fan wrote: »

Hi:) I have no experience in double sided stoves unfortunately:(

What you really need is a plumber to visit to calculate the heat loss of the building and calculate how many KW you need to heat the 6 rads and large open plan room.
From an online stove calculator it says 10kw is required to heat the 10mx5m room. It could be much, much less depending on how much insulation there is. The plumber will calculate the size of the rads needed for each room and the heat required to heat the open space taking into account the insulation and heat loss:)
I dont know of any large boilered double sided inset stoves:(

You would be best to use an accumulator (thermal store) to connect your oil boiler, boiler stove and solar panels:D.

You can then run underfloor heating from the thermal store from the boiler stove and oil. This is probably your best method. Your plumber will discuss this. Good luck with the build.

Stove Fan:)

Thank you so much Stove Fan. Really appreciate your lenghty response, another couple of questions,

1. What is a Thermal Store?
2. We are still searching for a plumber but we've had a few quotes back but none has mentioned doing any calculations of heat loss etc? are we looking at less than perfect plumbers here?

3. To ask my original question again - can a stove be used to heat UFH? I didnt really understand your response to this question? Would you mind explaining?

Again thank you!

Stove Fan · 14-04-2012 11:09PM

New build in sight wrote: »

Thank you so much Stove Fan. Really appreciate your lenghty response, another couple of questions,

1. What is a Thermal Store?
2. We are still searching for a plumber but we've had a few quotes back but none has mentioned doing any calculations of heat loss etc? are we looking at less than perfect plumbers here?
3. To ask my original question again - can a stove be used to heat UFH? I didnt really understand your response to this question? Would you mind explaining?

Again thank you!

Hi:) No problem.

1)A thermal store is like a super insulated hot water cylinder of stored hot water. The water inside the store is pumped to the radiators and underfloor heating. The water inside the store, once filled stays there.
It has a coil going through the hot water stored inside, that produces mains pressure hot water:D.
They are generally larger than a standard hot water cylinder and come in a range of sizes.
It has multiple connections on the thermal store so that an oil/gas boiler and solid fuel boiler and solar panels can heat the water inside.
These heat the water inside which is then pumped to the rads etc.

A thermal store is a great way of connecting multiple heat sources and as they are so very well insulated, loose very little heat and so the hot water inside is stored until you need it.

2)Did they take measurements of the rooms,window sizes and materials etc and asked about insulation levels? If so they would of done them at home? It's very hard to say:( They could of just quessed based on experience, or not:mad:
Was there a spec sheet on energy requirements provided if a new build or spec?

3 Yes, if you use a thermal store as the water to the underfloor heating circuit is taken from lower down on the thermal store where the water inside the store is cooler the lower down you go. There will be other temp controls from the store to limit the temperature flow from the store to the underfloor heating.

Stove Fan:)

Stove Fan · 14-04-2012 11:37PM

LadyLancalot wrote: »

Can anyone tell me if it's ok to burn lignite in a wood burning stove?

Guy in the fuel depot where we get our wood says it's fine but I'm worried I'll damage the stove

nyone know??

LL

Hi:) I didn't know what lignite was so looked it up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignite I wouldn't use it myself:( especially so if your stove is only for woodburning only and has no grate.
It has a very high moisture content, don't know if this is true in briquette form.
I would see what fuels the stove manufacturer recommends or give them a ring and ask them. I myself think lignite is a no.

Stick to wood or natural turf:) I have burnt turf well mixed with wood.

Stove Fan:)

LadyLancalot · 16-04-2012 04:26PM

Thanks for that - kinda had that feeling myself but was worth checking

LL

New build in sight · 16-04-2012 11:00PM

Stove Fan wrote: »

Hi:) No problem.

1)A thermal store is like a super insulated hot water cylinder of stored hot water. The water inside the store is pumped to the radiators and underfloor heating. The water inside the store, once filled stays there.
It has a coil going through the hot water stored inside, that produces mains pressure hot water:D.
They are generally larger than a standard hot water cylinder and come in a range of sizes.
It has multiple connections on the thermal store so that an oil/gas boiler and solid fuel boiler and solar panels can heat the water inside.
These heat the water inside which is then pumped to the rads etc.

A thermal store is a great way of connecting multiple heat sources and as they are so very well insulated, loose very little heat and so the hot water inside is stored until you need it.

2)Did they take measurements of the rooms,window sizes and materials etc and asked about insulation levels? If so they would of done them at home? It's very hard to say:( They could of just quessed based on experience, or not:mad:
Was there a spec sheet on energy requirements provided if a new build or spec?

3 Yes, if you use a thermal store as the water to the underfloor heating circuit is taken from lower down on the thermal store where the water inside the store is cooler the lower down you go. There will be other temp controls from the store to limit the temperature flow from the store to the underfloor heating.

Stove Fan:)

Seriously thank you so much! You are amazing, you have explained this to me in a way that i can actually understand what you mean! The first time i have understand anything to do with plumbing!

OK so i swear this is the last question - would a thermal store tank also be known as a buffer tank, or are these seperate things? I definately heard plumbers mentioning buffer tanks.... My partner is looking after all this side of things so i cant be sure on the whole spec etc part. He uses this account too so I will get him to read this.

Do you mind me asking what part of the country are you in?

dills · 16-04-2012 11:07PM

We are thinking about putting a woodburning stove/boiler in the lounge and have worked out that to heat the lounge we would need about 7 kw to room. We also want to heat up two rads and the underfloor heating in kitchen.

Rad sizes:
600 x 700 double
600 x 1200 double
25 square metres of underfloor heating.

The current boiler is a LPG combi which provides the only heat for the house at the moment but as it is a bit dear decided to go for a woodburning stove.

What size stove would we need, and would we have to have a cylinder installed for the hot water. What size would this cylinder have to be?

Please help

Barrell · 17-04-2012 11:35AM

I am looking to replace my existing fireplace (See pic below) to put in a free standing boiler stove, i need to make a bigger opening in width & height so the new stove can fit. So the existing precast flue gatherer will need to be removed as its too low plus it won't be supported on the blockwork as the ope will be made wider so i'll have to put in a long precast lintel at higher level to support the blockwork above. But

1. How do i support the existing & flue liners.

Any advice is greatly appreciated?

Stove Fan · 17-04-2012 12:33PM

New build in sight wrote: »

Seriously thank you so much! You are amazing, you have explained this to me in a way that i can actually understand what you mean! The first time i have understand anything to do with plumbing!

OK so i swear this is the last question - would a thermal store tank also be known as a buffer tank, or are these seperate things? I definately heard plumbers mentioning buffer tanks.... My partner is looking after all this side of things so i cant be sure on the whole spec etc part. He uses this account too so I will get him to read this.

Do you mind me asking what part of the country are you in?

Many thanks for your kind comments:D

Yes a thermal store is also known as a buffer, although buffers are more used with heat pumps. They seem to be the same as a thermal store/buffer/accumulator. I'm in Kerry/Limerick/Cork border area but not working here at all:( Going to return to the UK when we sell our house.

Stove Fan:)

Stove Fan · 17-04-2012 01:14PM

dills wrote: »

We are thinking about putting a woodburning stove/boiler in the lounge and have worked out that to heat the lounge we would need about 7 kw to room. We also want to heat up two rads and the underfloor heating in kitchen.

Rad sizes:
600 x 700 double
600 x 1200 double
25 square metres of underfloor heating.

The current boiler is a LPG combi which provides the only heat for the house at the moment but as it is a bit dear decided to go for a woodburning stove.

What size stove would we need, and would we have to have a cylinder installed for the hot water. What size would this cylinder have to be?

Please help

Hi:),

Your 2 rads equate to 4kw required to heat them.
You would be best to fit a thermal store cylinder, this would then enable you to keep the LPG boiler for backup if ill or away, but still integrate the boiler stove. Best of both worlds:D
I have no idea how much heat would be required to heat 25sqm of underfloor heating:( Underfloor heating I'm not up on:(

What I would do is to get a plumber in to evaluate your system and to price it for you.

Youll need the plumber to size the thermal store,
Size the boiler stove required based on heating requirements,

As you already have the LPG boiler installed I wouldn't get rid of it. Good for instant heat if you can't or don't want to light the fire.
The thermal store would need to be an open vented thermal store.

Stove Fan:)

Stove Fan · 17-04-2012 01:26PM

Barrell wrote: »

I am looking to replace my existing fireplace (See pic below) to put in a free standing boiler stove, i need to make a bigger opening in width & height so the new stove can fit. So the existing precast flue gatherer will need to be removed as its too low plus it won't be supported on the blockwork as the ope will be made wider so i'll have to put in a long precast lintel at higher level to support the blockwork above. But

1. How do i support the existing & flue liners.

Any advice is greatly appreciated?

Hi, it's quite a big job:eek: Depending on how much wider, you may need new foundations. The way people support the clay liners is to drill straight through the chimneybreast and the clay liner and put a steel rod through to hold the liners in place. Be prepared to have the infilling around the liners to fall out. You would also need to support the chimney blockwork/brickwork while widening and enlarging.
Personally this is best to be done by an experienced builder/fireplace installer as supporting the chimneybreast/clay liners is the hard part. You dont want it going wrong;)

Myself I wouldn't do it as it could get expensive:eek:
In my opinion I would seriously reconsider an inset boiler stove. It would save this hassle:D

Stove Fan:)

Barrell · 17-04-2012 02:24PM

Stove Fan wrote: »

Hi, it's quite a big job:eek: Depending on how much wider, you may need new foundations. The way people support the clay liners is to drill straight through the chimneybreast and the clay liner and put a steel rod through to hold the liners in place. Be prepared to have the infilling around the liners to fall out. You would also need to support the chimney blockwork/brickwork while widening and enlarging.
Personally this is best to be done by an experienced builder/fireplace installer as supporting the chimneybreast/clay liners is the hard part. You dont want it going wrong;)

Myself I wouldn't do it as it could get expensive:eek:
In my opinion I would seriously reconsider an inset boiler stove. It would save this hassle:D

Stove Fan:)

Thanks for reply stove fan

The existing blockwork will be staying in place just breaking out some of the blockwork to make the ope wider hense the existing flue liner won't be supported.
My father is an ex builder so just want to be sure what i'm doing before we start so no major expense.

When you say put in steel rod through the liners i presume this is temporary, what would support the liners permantly then?

Stove Fan · 17-04-2012 06:06PM

Barrell wrote: »

Thanks for reply stove fan

The existing blockwork will be staying in place just breaking out some of the blockwork to make the ope wider hense the existing flue liner won't be supported.
My father is an ex builder so just want to be sure what i'm doing before we start so no major expense.

When you say put in steel rod through the liners i presume this is temporary, what would support the liners permantly then?

Yes the steel rod(s) through the clay liner is just to tempoary support the clay liners until a supporting base is built.
What you would then have to do is to either use 2 concrete lintels either side from front to back to suppoort the clay liners. Or

Better still refit a new clay liner support base but if needed on 2 new lintels across the front and back if the new liner support isnt wide enough on it's own to span the new opening.
If the vermiculite/sand cement infill around the liners falls out you would need to backfill around the clay liners from the roof.

The second option is best as you can then just still use a clay liner adapter to join to the clay liners and stoves fluepipe. With the lintels in the first option you wouldnt have a flat surface to join the clay liner adapter and so tar could leak out, unless you fully relined the chimney in stainless steel flexi liner.

Stove Fan:D

Barrell · 18-04-2012 10:41AM

Thanks again stove fan for your reply you really are a legend!

A couple of queries on boiler stove?

1. On brochures what does "Nominal " heat output mean?

2. With boiler stoves can you regulate the heat output to the boiler and have the room temp at its normal kw output?

Stove Fan · 18-04-2012 12:04PM

Barrell wrote: »

Thanks again stove fan for your reply you really are a legend!

A couple of queries on boiler stove?

1. On brochures what does "Nominal " heat output mean?

2. With boiler stoves can you regulate the heat output to the boiler and have the room temp at its normal kw output?

Hi,

Nominal is really the minimum heat output, it could be higher depending on how often you refuel. Manufacturers will generally state the KW range.

If you want to be able to control the boiler output buy a boiler stove with thermostatic control. This regulates the air inlet into the fire and a phial sensor senses the water temperature to the rads and opens and closes the air supply automatically as needed.

The room output would decrease as the heating system was up to temperature. The thermostat closing the air supply thus the fire not burning as much.

Choose a boiler stove that matches the required boiler load and most important as well the required room output where the stove is going.
You don't want a stove roasting you out so having to keep the stove closed up thus not heating the rads.
It's better to have less heat to the room rather than roasting, you can always fit a radiator in the same room with a thermastatic radiator valve:).

Stove Fan:)

Barrell · 18-04-2012 12:42PM

Stove Fan thank you so much for your replies,

Another question for you currently i have 2 zones (upstairs & Downstairs) if i had a boiler stove that will only have enough kw output to heat one zone at a time, Can you alternate when one of the zones is heated?

Stove Fan · 18-04-2012 09:43PM

Barrell wrote: »

Stove Fan thank you so much for your replies,

Another question for you currently i have 2 zones (upstairs & Downstairs) if i had a boiler stove that will only have enough kw output to heat one zone at a time, Can you alternate when one of the zones is heated?

Yes, you should be able to:)

You should get fitted the fail safe zone valves that fall permanently open in the event of a power failiure.

Also discuss with the plumber to fit a heat leak radiator.

Get some quotes from a competent plumber who will discuss all these issues and see your setup and advice on the best course of action.

Stove Fan:)

Barrell · 19-04-2012 02:24PM

Stove Fan your views on Which one of these is the better stove? San Remo 12 Kw or the stratford EB 9 HE or Henley?

http://www.hearthandhome.ie/Stoves_files/SanRemo/san_remo_12kw.htm

http://www.boilerstovesireland.ie/product_info.php?cPath=4&products_id=213&osCsid=4d320cd1417939547eff7b5999b10550

http://www.henleystoves.com/skellig.html

Stove Fan · 19-04-2012 05:08PM

Barrell wrote: »

Stove Fan your views on Which one of these is the better stove? San Remo 12 Kw or the stratford EB 9 HE or Henley?

http://www.hearthandhome.ie/Stoves_files/SanRemo/san_remo_12kw.htm

http://www.boilerstovesireland.ie/product_info.php?cPath=4&products_id=213&osCsid=4d320cd1417939547eff7b5999b10550

http://www.henleystoves.com/skellig.html

Hi:) To be fair to the others I have never heard of them, must be a brand sold here.

If I was choosing out of the three it would be the Aarrow ecoboiler EB9HE. I prefer steel stoves myself and it has a larger boiler output.
The big plus is a thermostat to control the temperature of the water to the rads which works automatically:).
This saves you having to open and close the air vents manually yourself to maintain the rad temperature, a big plus:)
This is a pretty new model and a person on here bought the EB12 inset and he loved it. He said It got the rads hot in 20 minutes which is quick.

Stove Fan:)

Barrell · 20-04-2012 02:54PM

Stove Fan i'm back again you must be getting sick of me at this stage!!

Was just on the Hetas website and checked their guide appliance and the heat output they give on certain boiler stoves vary from manufacturers brochures heat output, Presume the Hetas information is more reliable?

Stove Fan · 20-04-2012 03:04PM

Barrell wrote: »

Stove Fan i'm back again you must be getting sick of me at this stage!!

Was just on the Hetas website and checked their guide appliance and the heat output they give on certain boiler stoves vary from manufacturers brochures heat output, Presume the Hetas information is more reliable?

No problem:) Yes I prefer to use the hetas website as the heat output has been independantly tested and verified.

It's usefull as well as most tests gives the heat output on wood and coal.

The efficiency fiqures are really much of a muchness but some stoves like clearview are actually better as the controls actually close off the air supply.
Don't get too hung up on the efficiency fiqures as there is lots of factors that affect efficiency with stoves. Generally the more well known and higher price generally equate to better quality.

See www.whatstove.co.uk for stove reviews by owners.

Stove Fan:)

heinbloed · 20-04-2012 03:10PM

The output must be determined by a certified body ( http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/newapproach/nando/ ).

Ask the seller who did the certification for the particular device. Ask for a copy of the certificate, quality manufacturers have no problem with this request.
Check the certificate via the "free search" function for genuity, there are fake certificates.

The chimney's suitability must be certified according to EN 13381-1 (2003+2008) or to EN 13384-2 (2002+2008).

PS

There are changes planned to EN 12809 (boiler stoves > 5kW and < 2bar), see the www., for example here

http://www.fnh.din.de/projekte/DIN+EN+12809/en/127830462.html

and a draft here

https://www.astandis.at/shopV5/Preview.action;jsessionid=991368ED04EDB64A9FC9A468D4FC9822?preview=&dokkey=388174&selectedLocale=en

heinbloed · 20-04-2012 03:31PM

Bultaco wrote in this thread (post No.775, 11/04/2012) that a stove installation in Munich is planned.
In case the engineer has not decided yet here the latest fuel and emission legislation for Munich:

http://www.ofen-wissen.de/normen-oefen-feuerstaetten-raumheizer-kamineinsatz/brennstoffverordnung-muenchen-bstv-neu-2011.html

Expect the legislations to be tightened in future.

Barrell · 20-04-2012 04:40PM

Stove Fan wrote: »

No problem:) Yes I prefer to use the hetas website as the heat output has been independantly tested and verified.

It's usefull as well as most tests gives the heat output on wood and coal.

The efficiency fiqures are really much of a muchness but some stoves like clearview are actually better as the controls actually close off the air supply.
Don't get too hung up on the efficiency fiqures as there is lots of factors that affect efficiency with stoves. Generally the more well known and higher price generally equate to better quality.

See www.whatstove.co.uk for stove reviews by owners.

Stove Fan:)

My room needs about 3.5Kw and water about 8kw. I'll be burning 90% wood (my father has supply of wood for next few yrs as he has a foresthttp) so was looking at the waterford erin stove given their heat output figures on the hetas website would be perfect for me but Waterford Stanley brochure says erin gives off 6Kw to Room and 13kw to boiler. A bit confused

Stove Fan · 20-04-2012 11:57PM

Barrell wrote: »

My room needs about 3.5Kw and water about 8kw. I'll be burning 90% wood (my father has supply of wood for next few yrs as he has a foresthttp) so was looking at the waterford erin stove given their heat output figures on the hetas website would be perfect for me but Waterford Stanley brochure says erin gives off 6Kw to Room and 13kw to boiler. A bit confused

Hi, yes I have had a look and HETAS is stating 5kw to room and 7.5kw to water as a max output. Quite a difference:eek: I personally would email stanley and show the link to the hetas document and see what they say.
If it does produce the heat output claimed by stanley then it's too big.

I have seen a stanley erin boiler stove working and the heat output wasn't great, although this one was plumbed in badly and only using turf and a bit of wood. The rads were luke warm:mad:.

You could go for something like this.
http://www.stratfordboilerstoves.co.uk/models/freestanding-stoves/eb9-he.html Or the EB9HE Inset. Just over £1,000 in the UK.

Stove Fan:)

jp99 · 21-04-2012 04:23PM

Hey all, I'm looking for a stove 30kw with back boiler. Has anyone any good opinions on either San Remo (19.5 to boiler, 10.5 to room) or Carraig Mor (25 to boiler, 5 to room) as options ? Prices are very close.

Heating setup I am going with is stove linked to 500l buffer tank (also solar tubes linked to buffer tank) which would run underfloor on both floors backed up by oil.

I guess another question I have is which stove output is more suited to my heating system (19.5/10.5kw or 25/5kw). Is Carrig Mor
giving too much heat to my boiler (as thermal store is already backup up by solar tubes & oil) ? Thank you.

STOVES questions and answers here(see mod note in post 1)

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