Public sector wage bill to fall by almost €4bn

woodoo · 20-04-2012 07:16PM #1

Quite impressive figures on savings from Public Sector wage bill.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/howlin-public-sector-wage-bill-to-fall-by-almost-4bn-548335.html

The wage bill will have fallen from €17.5bn at the peak in 2009 to €13.7bn – a €3.8bn saving. The public service gets a bad rap from people in this country. But credit should be afforded where its due. The current staff are doing more work for less pay.

Should the public service get more recognition for their efforts?

kippy · 20-04-2012 07:18PM

woodoo wrote: »

Quite impressive figures on savings from Public Sector wage bill.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/howlin-public-sector-wage-bill-to-fall-by-almost-4bn-548335.html

The wage bill will have fallen from €17.5bn at the peak in 2009 to €13.7bn – a €3.8bn saving. The public service gets a bad rap from people in this country. But credit should be afforded where its due. The current staff are doing more work for less pay.

Should the public service get more recognition for their efforts?

Read the article, it wont have fallen to that level until 2015. So there is still some way to go and there are still a lot of further efficiencies that can be found.

gerryo777 · 20-04-2012 07:21PM

woodoo wrote: »

Quite impressive figures on savings from Public Sector wage bill.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/howlin-public-sector-wage-bill-to-fall-by-almost-4bn-548335.html

The wage bill will have fallen from €17.5bn at the peak in 2009 to €13.7bn – a €3.8bn saving. The public service gets a bad rap from people in this country. But credit should be afforded where its due. The current staff are doing more work for less pay.

Should the public service get more recognition for their efforts?

What efforts are these? Should we thank them for not ripping us all off as much as they used to?

Still overpaid, still cosseted, still unsackable, still holding a gun to the governments head, still not living in the real world.

When they and their unions recognise the above maybe I'll recognise their efforts!

votecounts · 20-04-2012 07:23PM

Does this include the massive pensions that some of them retired early on.
Some of them are still massively overpaid with allowances such as some teachers are on 115,000. They've a long way to go imo.

byhookorbycrook · 20-04-2012 07:26PM

votecounts wrote: »

Does this include the massive pensions that some of them retired early on.
Some of them are still massively overpaid with allowances such as some teachers are on 115,000. They've a long way to go imo.

I promise you that there are very few teachers on this kind of money. It would only be a principal/deputy principal of a huge secondary school and at the top of the salary scale would get this. I'm teaching 25 years and don't get half of this.

not yet · 20-04-2012 07:48PM

It could fall to 4 billion and some people would still not be happy.

not yet · 20-04-2012 07:51PM

gerryo777 wrote: »

What efforts are these? Should we thank them for not ripping us all off as much as they used to?

Still overpaid, still cosseted, still unsackable, still holding a gun to the governments head, still not living in the real world.

When they and their unions recognise the above maybe I'll recognise their efforts!

Still nasty little comment from people who really know fcuk all about hoe the PS pay bill work, just jumping on the bandwagon.

GSF · 20-04-2012 07:52PM

And the public sector pension bill will rise by nearly as much as the wages bill drops

someuser905 · 20-04-2012 08:18PM

so that number doesnt include pensions?
meh typical double talk

gerryo777 · 20-04-2012 08:20PM

not yet wrote: »

Still nasty little comment from people who really know fcuk all about hoe the PS pay bill work, just jumping on the bandwagon.

It comes from someone who knows full well how the private sector works.

Someone who lives in the real world, someone who recognised very quickly at the start of this recession that cuts would have to be made in order to ensure me and my employees would secure our future.

The sooner you and your ilk recognise the same thing, the better.

If you think that's 'nasty', wait until you get what's undoubtedly coming down the line....

ardmacha · 20-04-2012 08:28PM

€13.7bn would be about 10% of GNP and about one quarter of government spending and efficient by international standards. The net cost being only one sixth of public spending. I'll bet you though that in 2015 that five sixths of posts on this forum will still be about this one sixth of spending.

Godge · 20-04-2012 08:57PM

gerryo777 wrote: »

What efforts are these? Should we thank them for not ripping us all off as much as they used to?

Still overpaid, still cosseted, still unsackable, still holding a gun to the governments head, still not living in the real world.

When they and their unions recognise the above maybe I'll recognise their efforts!

votecounts wrote: »

Does this include the massive pensions that some of them retired early on.
Some of them are still massively overpaid with allowances such as some teachers are on 115,000. They've a long way to go imo.

GSF wrote: »

And the public sector pension bill will rise by nearly as much as the wages bill drops

someuser905 wrote: »

so that number doesnt include pensions?
meh typical double talk

gerryo777 wrote: »

It comes from someone who knows full well how the private sector works.

Someone who lives in the real world, someone who recognised very quickly at the start of this recession that cuts would have to be made in order to ensure me and my employees would secure our future.

The sooner you and your ilk recognise the same thing, the better.

If you think that's 'nasty', wait until you get what's undoubtedly coming down the line....

These posts show how far the level of debate on these forums has sunk.

The OP posts an article containing some facts and makes some reasonable conclusions from that article. Yet all of the above responses are knee-jerk comments with no substance, no evidence, no reasoned debate, all containing pure prejudice against public servants, in fact labelling the substance of those posts as ignorant would be pretty close to the definition of ignorant.

ignorant
adj. 1. Lacking education or knowledge.
2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
3. Unaware or uninformed.

ignorant
adj 1. lacking in knowledge or education; unenlightened
2. (postpositive; often foll by of) lacking in awareness or knowledge (of) ignorant of the law
3. resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or awareness an ignorant remark

The facts were in Brendan Howlins speech and that level of saving has never been achieved in any other Western country since World War II. It is time for the naysayers and begrudgers to either produce some facts and evidence or shut up and go away.

P.S. I work in the private sector though I used to work in the public sector.

not yet · 20-04-2012 09:02PM

Godge wrote: »

These posts show how far the level of debate on these forums has sunk.

The OP posts an article containing some facts and makes some reasonable conclusions from that article. Yet all of the above responses are knee-jerk comments with no substance, no evidence, no reasoned debate, all containing pure prejudice against public servants, in fact labelling the substance of those posts as ignorant would be pretty close to the definition of ignorant.

ignorant
adj. 1. Lacking education or knowledge.
2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
3. Unaware or uninformed.

ignorant
adj 1. lacking in knowledge or education; unenlightened
2. (postpositive; often foll by of) lacking in awareness or knowledge (of) ignorant of the law
3. resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or awareness an ignorant remark

The facts were in Brendan Howlins speech and that level of saving has never been achieved in any other Western country since World War II. It is time for the naysayers and begrudgers to either produce some facts and evidence or shut up and go away.

P.S. I work in the private sector though I used to work in the public sector.

All true but it doesn't fit in with the agenda of blame it all on the PS.....Imagine the small mindedness of people to think a nurse or firefighter is to blame for this sh1tty mess, or better still by cutting their wage it will somehow get us back on track.

not yet · 20-04-2012 09:05PM

gerryo777 wrote: »

It comes from someone who knows full well how the private sector works.

Someone who lives in the real world, someone who recognised very quickly at the start of this recession that cuts would have to be made in order to ensure me and my employees would secure our future.

The sooner you and your ilk recognise the same thing, the better.

If you think that's 'nasty', wait until you get what's undoubtedly coming down the line....

Ha ha....do tell, what is this nasty surprise that me and my ''ilk'' can expect.

fenris · 20-04-2012 09:09PM

In the event that agency staff is used instead of normal staff, is the cost of the agency staff wages included in the public sector wage bill figure?

gerryo777 · 20-04-2012 09:13PM

not yet wrote: »

All true but it doesn't fit in with the agenda of blame it all on the PS.....Imagine the small mindedness of people to think a nurse or firefighter is to blame for this sh1tty mess, or better still by cutting their wage it will somehow get us back on track.

Nobody is blaming it all on the PS and nobody is blaming it on the 'nurses or firefighters'.

However the OP seems to think that we should be grateful to hear that by 2015 these targets 'may' be met.

This recession started to hit us 4 years ago and everyone in the private sector had to re-adjust fairly quickly, yet in the PS some fairly average targets will take 7 or 8 years to achieve.

That's the perception out there, weather you agree or not!

gerryo777 · 20-04-2012 09:15PM

not yet wrote: »

Ha ha....do tell, what is this nasty surprise that me and my ''ilk'' can expect.

I'll let the troika tell you that. Needless to say, the CPA won't be lasting much longer.

not yet · 20-04-2012 09:21PM

gerryo777 wrote: »

Nobody is blaming it all on the PS and nobody is blaming it on the 'nurses or firefighters'.

However the OP seems to think that we should be grateful to hear that by 2015 these targets 'may' be met.

This recession started to hit us 4 years ago and everyone in the private sector had to re-adjust fairly quickly, yet in the PS some fairly average targets will take 7 or 8 years to achieve.

That's the perception out there, weather you agree or not!

A report released last week states that only 1 in 4 private sector workers have taken a pay cut. PS workers have taken a min 15% pay cut. If this government focused on highly paid consultants or looked at the huge amount of middle managers in the HSE on 75-80k we might sort out the waste in ''some'' areas of the PS.

not yet · 20-04-2012 09:23PM

gerryo777 wrote: »

I'll let the troika tell you that. Needless to say, the CPA won't be lasting much longer.

Get real will ya ffs. only today Brendan Howlin said the cpa was safe, and no amount of whinging by fat cats will change that, so suck it up.

Manach · 20-04-2012 09:31PM

ardmacha wrote: »

€13.7bn would be about 10% of GNP and about one quarter of government spending and efficient by international standards. The net cost being only one sixth of public spending. I'll bet you though that in 2015 that five sixths of posts on this forum will still be about this one sixth of spending.

To gauge public spending by GNP does sound reasonable. Looking at an IMF doc link this is how they measure it, with the usual cavaets that all non wages "Non-monetary benefits" are captured. Table 1 seems the relevant table - with 10.4 the high end of the scale.

woodoo · 20-04-2012 09:32PM

gerryo777 wrote: »

Nobody is blaming it all on the PS and nobody is blaming it on the 'nurses or firefighters'.

However the OP seems to think that we should be grateful to hear that by 2015 these targets 'may' be met.

This recession started to hit us 4 years ago and everyone in the private sector had to re-adjust fairly quickly, yet in the PS some fairly average targets will take 7 or 8 years to achieve.

That's the perception out there, weather you agree or not!

If you were to believe the media and online comment you would be forgiven for thinking the Public sector staff have done absolutely nothing to alleviate the current financial crisis. That they have made no effort whatsoever.

K-9 · 20-04-2012 09:32PM

Less of the personal posts please. Any more sniping will result in cards.

ardmacha · 20-04-2012 09:53PM

Manach wrote: »

To gauge public spending by GNP does sound reasonable. Looking at an IMF doc link this is how they measure it, with the usual cavaets that all non wages "Non-monetary benefits" are captured. Table 1 seems the relevant table - with 10.4 the high end of the scale.

In your table it is 10.2% for Europe and 10.4% for High Income countries, which about describes where we are. It may be lower in Africa or South America, but how relevant is that? In 2015 Irish GNP will still be somewhat depressed, in a recession public spending is obviously a somewhat higher proportion. If the economy got going this would fall below 10%.

As for the general point. In 2015 most public servants will be in sections where they have worked more for less and done their bit. The naysayers will still have a point as some people may still have somehow avoided this. The problem is that so many posts here imply that this minority is everyone. This diffuse (and lazy) attitude that refuses to analyse or differentiate is a large part of the problem as attention does not then come to bear on the few, but is wasted on the many.

gerryo777 · 20-04-2012 09:54PM

not yet wrote: »

Get real will ya ffs. only today Brendan Howlin said the cpa was safe, and no amount of whinging by fat cats will change that, so suck it up.

You believe a politician? WOW!

Count Dooku · 20-04-2012 10:06PM

woodoo wrote: »

Quite impressive figures on savings from Public Sector wage bill.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/howlin-public-sector-wage-bill-to-fall-by-almost-4bn-548335.html

The wage bill will have fallen from €17.5bn at the peak in 2009 to €13.7bn – a €3.8bn saving. The public service gets a bad rap from people in this country. But credit should be afforded where its due. The current staff are doing more work for less pay.

Should the public service get more recognition for their efforts?

Do you mean efforts for transferring wages into pensions and reduction of services?

TABLE 4
EXCHEQUER PAY AND PENSIONS BILL – GROSS
2011 Forecast Outturn - 18,569,000
2012 Estimate - 18,398,959

http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final%20Part%204.pdf

TABLE 4
EXCHEQUER PAY AND PENSIONS BILL - GROSS
2008 Estimate - 19,392,996

http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2008/Documents/2008EstimatesforPublicServies&SummaryPublicCapitalProgramme.pdf

5% savings in total with massive reduction of services instead

gerryo777 · 20-04-2012 10:08PM

K-9 wrote: »

Less of the personal posts please. Any more sniping will result in cards.

On that note, I'll check out of this one. Ciao!

not yet · 20-04-2012 10:08PM

gerryo777 wrote: »

You believe a politician? WOW!

Yeah him I do...

AltAccount · 20-04-2012 10:26PM

not yet wrote: »

A report released last week states that only 1 in 4 private sector workers have taken a pay cut.

Link?

Count Dooku · 20-04-2012 10:33PM

not yet wrote: »

A report released last week states that only 1 in 4 private sector workers have taken a pay cut.

If you mean ESRI report, it based on data between 2006 and 2009

The Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) claims that both average earnings and average labour costs hardly changed between late 2006 and late 2009 despite the collapse of the economy.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-change-to-private-sector-pay-despite-the-recession-3083667.html

not yet wrote: »

PS workers have taken a min 15% pay cut.

call it solidarity with time wasters tax or inefficiency levy
it would make more sense to fire all unnecessary staff rather then wait until natural wastage will reduce numbers

paddy0090 · 20-04-2012 11:01PM

No! They don't deserve great recognition. All of these savings are being forced thru under the T.I.N.A. Initiatives forced on us by our loss of soveriegnty to the troika. Though not the fault of the vast majority in the unions or the PS they seem to have a deep resentment to having to adhere to measures which dramatically reduce their ability to gouge the public. Though maybe I'm just picking up on what their leaders are saying. It might not be the views of the majority.

I know and I've seen plenty of PS workers work hard. But it doesn't justify taking a third of your wages as a pension less the regressive levy(as opposed to paying the full whack). It doesn't justify the lack of accountability or transparent metrics by which to measure delivery. Accountability btw is the essence of Democracy - if the bums aren't doing a good job, turf them out.

The pointless make work initaives are still popping up. The Railway Procurement Agency had a proposal to create bus only bus lanes with bollards, this despite the fact that so many buses are empty. This is at the heart of what many of us feel about the PS. It's an over extension of a Napoleonic state(ministerial cosmetics) that serves little more than the status quo which in too many cases delivers little or no tangible benifit to the public.

I don't think the CPA will survive the second bailout for anyone currently under the of 55, assuming we don't default in 2014. The more I hear of the conditions of the CPA the more I think it's essentially a chance for the senior members(geriacrhy) of the unions to bilk the bailout before default. The conditions forced on new entrants (the young) will be brought to bare on all PS workers by the law or the troika. The legal issue doesn't arrise as long as there's a recruitment embargo. It's discrimination. SURPRISE!

Even the government didn't believe in the CPA. It re-hired many of the workers who retired early. Actions speak louder than words. It can't deliver efficiency (they mean cuts) without hitting services. Bertie style!

It would suit the PS unions/workers better to focus on essentials and let the Ahern cosmetic legacy die off. The reality is you have to do less with less....more is just a fantasy. The marginal more isn't enough though it would be laubable if you'd just done your job properly in the first place.

Bullseye1 · 20-04-2012 11:39PM

The Croke Park Agreement should be abandoned and the necessary cuts and reductions made in the next two budgets. It's not delivering fast enough. Unfortunately we don't have politicians brave enough to take on the PS and its unions.

Public sector wage bill to fall by almost €4bn

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