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Why not Suffolks?

  • 18-04-2012 07:09PM
    #1
    Jonny303
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 634 ✭✭✭


    Hi,

    Why do people seem to be keener on suffolk cross rather than straight forward suffolks? Surely with such quick growth rates they make ideal factory lambs, no?


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  • #2
    5live
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭5live


    Jonny303 wrote: »
    Hi,

    Why do people seem to be keener on suffolk cross rather than straight forward suffolks? Surely with such quick growth rates they make ideal factory lambs, no?
    Hybrid vigour in crossbred lambs makes them more attractive. By definition, any pure bred animal is more closely related to other animals of its breed than those of other breeds. Crossbreeding with other breeds reduces the restriction on growth/health that the animals may suffer when bred pure.

    Plus, i find suffocks bloody soft feckers and less resistant to worms so i stay away from them but many more love them for the reasons you give above


  • #3
    Username John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    Jonny303 wrote: »
    Hi,

    Why do people seem to be keener on suffolk cross rather than straight forward suffolks? Surely with such quick growth rates they make ideal factory lambs, no?

    Hybrid vigour as 5Live says, plus worms - over in the BFF I seen one lad say about suffolks "black faces, black arses" :)

    Some suffolks can be harder lambed, with big boxy heads. Not sure why a big head is breed into them, but it seems to be...
    Plus some tend to have feet problems, not sure that's specific to Suffolks tho...

    On the plus side, they have good growth rates like you say, and are nice quiet sheep.

    We have always had suffolks but looking to get a different breed ram this year. Mainly for lambing issues - big heads, shoulders on the rams I have, have to handle more sheep than I want, plus get a bit of hybrid vigour in.


  • #4
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,854 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Ask tooyoungtodiefor, suffolks seem to be a big hit with him......:D

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • #5
    johngalway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Username John wrote: »
    We have always had suffolks but looking to get a different breed ram this year.

    What're you thinking of getting John?

    Saw some lovely North Count(r)y(?) Cheviot lambs a few years back in Maam Cross, made a great price too.


  • #6
    Cran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Cran


    No suffolks here, to soft no fight at lambing, hard lambed, dirty arses as said above, and find them bad on the feet. No matter what the growth rates doesn't compensate the faults....
    It is really a pity the way suffolks have gone in the last 20 years, maybe it's rose tinted glasses looking back to childhood but I remember suffolks been less boned, smaller heads with shorter ears and hardier back in the 80's. Always remember he father avoiding the type that's become the norm now! Anyone else think this?


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  • #7
    johngalway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Dad used to run a Suffolk ram or two on some of the Scotch ewes. Always noticed they were very slow to get up and going and a bit of a hassle in that regard to be honest. Troublesome feet were another thing as well.

    Anything that gives trouble = get rid.


  • #8
    5live
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭5live


    Cran wrote: »
    No suffolks here, to soft no fight at lambing, hard lambed, dirty arses as said above, and find them bad on the feet. No matter what the growth rates doesn't compensate the faults....
    It is really a pity the way suffolks have gone in the last 20 years, maybe it's rose tinted glasses looking back to childhood but I remember suffolks been less boned, smaller heads with shorter ears and hardier back in the 80's. Always remember he father avoiding the type that's become the norm now! Anyone else think this?
    I worked on a suffolk sheep farm or 2 in my time and i have to agree. Every lamb born stomach tubed so no need to get up and suck. Kept in for 2 weeks despite fantastic weather outside. Dosed practically daily. Bred from a small pool of show sheep. I could go on....

    I know they are valuable stock but the breeders seem to have gone well beyond 'normality' in breeding their stock. I for one cant wait till the NZ suffolks become more common. Almost the total opposite of the irish suffolk


  • #9
    Arrow in the Knee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 959 ✭✭✭Arrow in the Knee


    I have a large flock of ewes with the majority 3/4 and 7/8 pure Suffolk ewes put to a Suffolk ram.

    Lambs grow like mushrooms!

    My Suffolks aren't dirty/bad hooves either compared to other breeds I have.

    More propaganda from the Texel Society.


  • #10
    Cran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Cran


    Arrow in the Knee wrote: »
    I have a large flock of ewes with the majority 3/4 and 7/8 pure Suffolk ewes put to a Suffolk ram.

    Lambs grow like mushrooms!

    My Suffolks aren't dirty/bad hooves either compared to other breeds I have.

    More propaganda from the Texel Society.

    Just out of curiousity do you lamb for easter or outside in spring, what is your lambing % and do you buy your rams from the same source each year?

    My thoughts on Suffolks are based on experience, and I don't keep Texels either. I like Suffolks but not the way they've gone, have been considering a NZ Suffolk so interested in what breeding your using as an alternative....


  • #11
    Username John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    5live wrote: »
    I worked on a suffolk sheep farm or 2 in my time and i have to agree. Every lamb born stomach tubed so no need to get up and suck. Kept in for 2 weeks despite fantastic weather outside. Dosed practically daily. Bred from a small pool of show sheep. I could go on....

    I know they are valuable stock but the breeders seem to have gone well beyond 'normality' in breeding their stock. I for one cant wait till the NZ suffolks become more common. Almost the total opposite of the irish suffolk

    I should prob saying with my experience is very limited, with small numbers + only a few years experience on my own...

    We would always have had mainly Suffolks (not pedigree now though) and I wouldn't have said they were soft... we have no issues with lambs not getting up to suck, etc...
    BUT
    We lamb them inside - so we prob run a 'soft' operation ;)
    I wouldn't say they would be able to lamb outside - from both a hardiness perspective + I find the suffolks very unforgiving at lambing - one thing wrong, and you're in trouble...

    I got a few Charolais lambs there a while ago, and they had lambs this year (out of a suffolk ram) - and the difference between the lambs is very noticeable. They push out a lamb, even if its coming with just one leg, the lambs are up, lively and bawling and looking to suck a lot faster....

    The NZ Suffolk almost seem like a different breed - the way they seem to have fixed a lot of the issues people associate with Suffolks here...
    Arrow in the Knee wrote: »
    My Suffolks aren't dirty/bad hooves either compared to other breeds I have.
    I would say that mine are dirty then, there always seems to some dirty, compared to the few cross breeds that I have.
    On the bad hooves - I have been trying to cull for this - and things are improving, but I wouldn't say its purely a Suffolk thing.
    johngalway wrote: »
    What're you thinking of getting John?

    Saw some lovely North Count(r)y(?) Cheviot lambs a few years back in Maam Cross, made a great price too.

    I dunno John, I am constantly debating it - I had half decided on Charollais, based on the lambs out of the Charolais ewes I had. But... from the few Charollais ewes I have had, they are not very 'milky' compared to the Suffolks. And I like to keep my own replacements... So maybe the answer is keep one Suffolk ram for replacements. :confused:
    Plus, the Charolais I have are mental, I must admit I like the somewhat 'dozy' nature of the Suffolk :D

    Reading the BFF - I see lads recommending the Beltex as easy lambed - which surprised me, as I had assumed they would be very hard lambed, given the look of them... so that's something else to think about...
    I dunno - I think its one I will be constantly debating... Am sure I will be posting a thread looking for advice from all prob when the time comes ;)


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  • #12
    redzerologhlen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭redzerologhlen


    Username John wrote: »
    Reading the BFF - I see lads recommending the Beltex as easy lambed - which surprised me, as I had assumed they would be very hard lambed, given the look of them... so that's something else to think about...
    I dunno - I think its one I will be constantly debating... Am sure I will be posting a thread looking for advice from all prob when the time comes ;)


    No sheep here and no experience really but a friend is big into them. He let a beltex off with ewe lambs last year and reckon they are the job for them, no problem at all lambing. Have another friend with pedigree llyen ewes too that scanned at 2.5, unnatural!!


  • #13
    johngalway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Arrow in the Knee wrote: »
    More propaganda from the Texel Society.

    A texel never set foot in our place.


  • #14
    Cran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Cran


    Arrow in the Knee wrote: »
    More propaganda from the Texel Society.

    Was at one of those Sheep Ireland talks last year and said we wouldn't discuss breeds as just turns into an arguement why my breed is better than yours......

    I personally keep Charollais and Lleyns but would change to any breed if I thought they would improve the situation... There is a level of promotion required by breed societies but also need to move more towards performance development rather than shows were alot of breeds are gone...


  • #15
    Arrow in the Knee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 959 ✭✭✭Arrow in the Knee


    We lamb for Easter.Lambing starts in early January.

    All ewes are left in a paddock/field near the shed before they lamb. Any signs of lambing in the evening they will be put in the shed to keep an eye on as I don't want to be bringing a ewe in the dark and me freezin me arse off. Ewes are looked at just before it gets dark,then at 9:00pm,12:00pm,4:00am and 7:30am.
    Just as a precaution.
    Lambs on the ground this year are 1.9 lambs per ewe.

    Rams sourced from different flocks mainly Lambplus recorded flocks and looking for outcrosses to avoid inbreeding.

    I have a Pedigree Texel flock but the tups are too wide for commercial lambing flock.
    I would say a beltex tup would be grand for ewe lambs/hoggets but I would avoid a beltex as a breeding female.

    IMO Suffolks are the best terminal/maternal sires.

    This thread seems like it will end up as a debate about overfeeding, show ring breeding and other extremities in the pedigree sheep breeding world.


  • #16
    Cran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Cran


    Arrow in the Knee wrote: »
    IMO Suffolks are the best terminal/maternal sires.

    Thanks Arrow interesting

    your Texel comment is very interesting - why keep them so?

    I actual agree with the above quote that Suffolks are the best breed for both terminal & maternal traits in one breed and this means they probably work well in small/medium sized flocks. But I believe there are better terminal breeds and better maternal breeds available.
    Once upon a time Suffolks were the best terminal breed but have lost ground and have dis-improved in many commercial farmers eyes especially large flock owners. Its strange considering the amount of monetary investment put into the breed by pedigree breeders over the past 20 years......


  • #17
    Arrow in the Knee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 959 ✭✭✭Arrow in the Knee


    Texel have more appeal to disillusioned sheep farmers.

    Texel Society are good at promoting their breed in the media.


  • #18
    johngalway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Arrow in the Knee wrote: »
    Ewes are looked at just before it gets dark,then at 9:00pm,12:00pm,4:00am and 7:30am.

    :eek:

    That's madness. "Easy care" (not "no care") is the way forward.


  • #19
    Username John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    johngalway wrote: »
    :eek:

    That's madness. "Easy care" (not "no care") is the way forward.
    Arrow in the Knee wrote: »
    Ewes are looked at just before it gets dark,then at 9:00pm,12:00pm,4:00am and 7:30am.

    he he - between those two comments prob answers the OPs original question of "why not Suffolks?" ;):D

    I will admit I follow a similar schedule to Arrow in the knee, and would often check during the night. Like I said - Suffolks can be very unforgiving if something goes wrong... :(

    John Galway - whats your schedule re checking ewes when lambing?


  • #20
    johngalway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Username John wrote: »
    John Galway - whats your schedule re checking ewes when lambing?

    Ewes yet to lamb are in a 10 acre block of rough ground. I feed them once a day in the morning sometime, they get counted at the trough, I'll look for any missing ones who usually have lambs - takes ten or fifteen minutes to look.

    During the hour before dark I'll possibly check them again. That depends on what I've been at all day, or if I've been or am going shooting that night.

    So, twice a day most days but if I don't get to see them twice I don't worry.

    I've a very small flock but I've not had to assist any ewe belonging to me yet this year, which includes my half Cheviots which were put to a Cheviot ram.


  • #21
    Arrow in the Knee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 959 ✭✭✭Arrow in the Knee


    johngalway wrote: »
    :eek:

    That's madness. "Easy care" (not "no care") is the way forward.

    Meant to say at peak time during the lambing.
    All my ewes are sponged so very compact lambing.

    Also I hate to lose lambs if I think I could of done something. Lambing may seem long and drawn out when your init but it's a pivitol time of the sheep year.


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  • #22
    rancher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭rancher


    johngalway wrote: »
    :eek:

    That's madness. "Easy care" (not "no care") is the way forward.

    It's not madness....if you want 1.9 lambs per ewe that's the sort of care thats required, especially if you're using a good terminal sire


  • #23
    johngalway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    rancher wrote: »
    It's not madness....if you want 1.9 lambs per ewe that's the sort of care thats required, especially if you're using a good terminal sire

    Go onto BFF and read what the NZ sheep farmers are at. There's very few of them out all hours of the night, and that's with many more sheep per farmer than on this side of the world. They've been breeding problems out of their sheep for donkeys years, including hard lambings as far as I can see. I don't agree with everything they do as no solution fits all places but they're headed in the right direction in a lot of cases. Spit out two smaller lambs, have them grow like snot, rather than have two monsters trying to escape and be handling a lot of ewes at lambing.


  • #24
    rancher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭rancher


    johngalway wrote: »
    Go onto BFF and read what the NZ sheep farmers are at. There's very few of them out all hours of the night, and that's with many more sheep per farmer than on this side of the world. They've been breeding problems out of their sheep for donkeys years, including hard lambings as far as I can see. I don't agree with everything they do as no solution fits all places but they're headed in the right direction in a lot of cases. Spit out two smaller lambs, have them grow like snot, rather than have two monsters trying to escape and be handling a lot of ewes at lambing.

    Different scenario, farms 10 to 20 times the size, no subsidies, etc. They don't interfere at lambing, how long will a ewe with a head out take to die....in pain. I don't know but one things for sure she won't give trouble in next years lambing,,,,and neither will her offspring with the swollen head. The whole flock then evolves into an easy care flock, Its a very hard system and I know I wouldn't carry on like that. Don't forget this is the country where they induce dairy cows to calve if the're later than the rest whether they're 7,8 or 9 mths incalf. At least it seems that practise is going to be banned now


  • #25
    5live
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭5live


    rancher wrote: »
    Different scenario, farms 10 to 20 times the size, no subsidies, etc. They don't interfere at lambing, how long will a ewe with a head out take to die....in pain. I don't know but one things for sure she won't give trouble in next years lambing,,,,and neither will her offspring with the swollen head. The whole flock then evolves into an easy care flock, Its a very hard system and I know I wouldn't carry on like that. Don't forget this is the country where they induce dairy cows to calve if the're later than the rest whether they're 7,8 or 9 mths incalf. At least it seems that practise is going to be banned now
    The neglect during lambing you are talking about happens here but in neither case through deliberate neglect.
    In NZ they do check the sheep and assist at lambing but the ewes and lambs that survive are marked for culling, not for breeding so the problem cases are gone gone gone for the next lambing season. That is why they can have large flocks with what we would consider huge numbers of sheep per labour unit. Efficiency is the name of the game there. I dont necessarily agree with a lot of what they do but it is an effective solution, given the constraints they face


  • #26
    johngalway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    rancher wrote: »
    Different scenario, farms 10 to 20 times the size, no subsidies, etc. They don't interfere at lambing, how long will a ewe with a head out take to die....in pain. I don't know but one things for sure she won't give trouble in next years lambing,,,,and neither will her offspring with the swollen head. The whole flock then evolves into an easy care flock, Its a very hard system and I know I wouldn't carry on like that. Don't forget this is the country where they induce dairy cows to calve if the're later than the rest whether they're 7,8 or 9 mths incalf. At least it seems that practise is going to be banned now

    Of course it's is a different scenario, no one would learn anything if everything stayed the same everywhere, but you're talking about "no care" which, when talking to those farmers isn't what happens in NZ. They also have a welfare and animal rights lobby, who are by all accounts quite vocal.

    My point, which we're cutting to quickly when you say:
    how long will a ewe with a head out take to die....in pain

    is that easy lambing (which is a part of easy care, and certainly different from "no care") traits in all breeds should be looked upon as a virtue and not looked down upon. We on this side of the world are realising too late about these things. Talk to them and they'll tell you from the horses mouth what they've been doing.

    My small flock has had up to 30% twins in some years, which isn't much compared to here for a number of reasons. I rarely have to interfere, they're there are waiting for me in the morning. The problem is big lambs inside the ewe, and to a lesser degree lambing complications with two coming at once. I wouldn't keep a "good ewe" that gave me trouble, she'd be sent off down the road marked as cull. Life's too short.

    These below are the biggest twins I've had this year. Ewe is a half cheviot half blackface, put to a cheviot ram. The three of them were waiting for me in the morning happy as can be.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78174744&postcount=1512

    The "real world", which you like to mention from time to time, is something the NZ farmers are an awful lot closer to than we are, even with our 500 million Europeans on our doorstep.

    I'm not having a go, I'm saying thinking needs to change. At some stage we'll loose subs as well, might as well prepare for that now, less work to be done on the farm means more time for opportunity in other things. I don't see getting up four or five times in the night as having any quality of life for the Shepard - and I do be out at night after foxes so I know how it feels the next day, and day after, and week after that. I don't see the sense in having big lambs inside the sheep, instead of aiming for smaller lambs inside which grow well outside.

    I met a man in the vets in Oughterard this morning. He's Charlaois, Texel, and Suffolk lambs. He had lost a lot of big lambs, had to intervene in a lot more and pull lambs and had to call in the vet for five sections :eek:

    From my view, none of that is easy on the ewe, the lamb, or the Shepard.

    That's working hard for sure, but is it working smart?


  • #27
    rancher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭rancher


    5live wrote: »
    In NZ they do check the sheep and assist at lambing but the ewes and lambs that survive are marked for culling, not for breeding so the problem cases are gone gone gone for the next lambing season.

    Been doing that myself for the last 10 years, still wouldn't leave them anymore than 3 or 4 hours without checking them, sounds a great idea on paper but doesn't work out that way, a lot of my ewes would be half lleyn, supposedly easy care.
    John, a lot of farmers got codded this year with the good grass, a lot of big lambs, singlebearing ewes have to be managed not to overfeed, I use vendeen and texel on texel/lleyn ewe. no problems


  • #28
    5live
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭5live


    rancher wrote: »
    Been doing that myself for the last 10 years, still wouldn't leave them anymore than 3 or 4 hours without checking them, sounds a great idea on paper but doesn't work out that way, a lot of my ewes would be half lleyn, supposedly easy care.
    Again that goes back to my point about the flocks supplying the rams for other flocks to 'improve' them. The pedigree flocks supplying rams, the suffolk, lleyns,l belclare and the rest, are nowhere near the eaycare sheep that the farmer needs. Except in NZ where the rams supplied MUST perform under commercial conditions ie easy lambing, up to suck, quick growing with good confirmation, resistant to worms and footrot and quiet and easy to handle. If the sellers dont provide these then they will be left with their rams next year because nobody will buy them.

    Here you buy decendants of show animals. Its a bit like looking to buy a sheepdog and going to crufts for one. He will have all the breed points but will he have the ability to work sheep?

    I wasnt having a pop at suffolk sheep alone, the points above are equally deficient to a greater or lesser degree among all the other breeds


  • #29
    rancher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭rancher


    5live wrote: »
    Again that goes back to my point about the flocks supplying the rams for other flocks to 'improve' them. The pedigree flocks supplying rams, the suffolk, lleyns,l belclare and the rest, are nowhere near the eaycare sheep that the farmer needs. Except in NZ where the rams supplied MUST perform under commercial conditions ie easy lambing, up to suck, quick growing with good confirmation, resistant to worms and footrot and quiet and easy to handle. If the sellers dont provide these then they will be left with their rams next year because nobody will buy them.

    Here you buy decendants of show animals. Its a bit like looking to buy a sheepdog and going to crufts for one. He will have all the breed points but will he have the ability to work sheep?

    I wasnt having a pop at suffolk sheep alone, the points above are equally deficient to a greater or lesser degree among all the other breeds
    800th lamb this morning,I'd say that was commercial conditions, but that's not the point I came in on.
    Put simply..... If a ewe pops out a head at 3am are you happy enough to stay in bed until he's good and swollen or get up at 4am and sort it


  • #30
    Cran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Cran


    5live wrote: »
    Here you buy decendants of show animals. Its a bit like looking to buy a sheepdog and going to crufts for one. He will have all the breed points but will he have the ability to work sheep?

    I wasnt having a pop at suffolk sheep alone, the points above are equally deficient to a greater or lesser degree among all the other breeds

    A big issue here is too many breeders have no connection to commercial breeding.
    I attend way to many sheep sales, too many sheep over fed and some others not up to scratch and should have been culled rather than be in pedigree sales. Many breeders will tell you that the farmer want these fed sheep as most buy on size, until that changes in Ireland the breeders wouldn't change simple....
    Was at couple of sales in the north and England last year and I believe its even a bigger problem there.....


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  • #31
    johngalway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    rancher wrote: »
    John, a lot of farmers got codded this year with the good grass

    Not so sure about that as I reckon the farmers getting up X number of times a night do so every year?

    We had very big singles one year before but I don't remember the details, what breed, grass etc.

    If it can be done to have a high lambing rate with a lot less drama, what's not to like :confused:

    Shows do some of the worst damage. We brought the first prize winning blackface at Westport one year, what a effing waste of money. He went down twice during tipping, pumped up soft as **** animal, looked fantastic but useless when it came down to it.

    5live has hit the nail on the head, it's about improving the breeds.


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