More tax increases due to unions?

Dannyboy83 · 11-04-2012 07:25PM #1

I was speaking to a friend who works in the Revenue today about the impending teacher's strike. Obviously it doesn't seem likely at this stage that the government is going to learn to stand up to unions... I suggested that the government may have an interim budget and seek to increase income tax rates.

She was adamant that this will not happen - she said the tax burden is already too high and the government cannot take the risk that people will simply just start leaving if it increases again.
More interesting to me, was that she said that the teachers unions actually have very little support among the civil service and many areas of the public service, because they are paid multiples of what a clerical officer typically makes.

Over 80% of the education budget goes on wages and I can't imagine there is any low hanging fruit left to pick - so I genuinely cannot fathom where the money will come from if not from tax increases?

What do forum members think will be the outcome?

liammur · 11-04-2012 07:28PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I was speaking to a friend who works in the Revenue today about the impending teacher's strike. Obviously it doesn't seem likely at this stage that the government is going to learn to stand up to unions... I suggested that the government may have an interim budget and seek to increase income tax rates.

She was adamant that this will not happen - she said the tax burden is already too high and the government cannot take the risk that people will simply just start leaving if it increases again.
More interesting to me, was that she said that the teachers unions actually have very little support among the civil service and many areas of the public service, because they are paid multiples of what a clerical officer typically makes.

Over 80% of the education budget goes on wages and I can't imagine there is any low hanging fruit left to pick - so I genuinely cannot fathom where the money will come from if not from tax increases?

What do forum members think will be the outcome?

1 very low hanging fruit is getting primary principals into the classroom and teach, this 1 simple move would save maybe 500 extra teaching positions.

Another one they could look at is universities: tremendous waste here, mainly on professors exorbitant wages.

But I agree, the unions are doing nobody any favours.

gerryo777 · 11-04-2012 07:31PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I was speaking to a friend who works in the Revenue today about the impending teacher's strike. Obviously it doesn't seem likely at this stage that the government is going to learn to stand up to unions... I suggested that the government may have an interim budget and seek to increase income tax rates.

She was adamant that this will not happen - she said the tax burden is already too high and the government cannot take the risk that people will simply just start leaving if it increases again.
More interesting to me, was that she said that the teachers unions actually have very little support among the civil service and many areas of the public service, because they are paid multiples of what a clerical officer typically makes.

Over 80% of the education budget goes on wages and I can't imagine there is any low hanging fruit left to pick - so I genuinely cannot fathom where the money will come from if not from tax increases?

What do forum members think will be the outcome?

I think that if enda & co really want to put it up to the PS unions, now is the time to do it.

As long as the IMF are here he has cover to sort them out once and for all.

As for the teachers, €505 million last year on top of their wage bill?

They need to wake up and realise what's really happening in this little country of ours!

Riskymove · 11-04-2012 07:31PM

sorry, but what is your actual point or question?

will there be a tax increase if the teachers do not agree with a cut to allowances?

then no is the answer

gerryo777 · 11-04-2012 07:33PM

liammur wrote: »

1 very low hanging fruit is getting primary principals into the classroom and teach, this 1 simple move would save maybe 500 extra teaching positions.

Another one they could look at is universities: tremendous waste here, mainly on professors exorbitant wages.

But I agree, the unions are doing nobody any favours.

The people who support these unions should ask themselves why their 'leaders' are paying themselves 6 figure sums.......

Uriel. · 11-04-2012 07:34PM

Don't know the true figure but is 80% cost an overly crazy figure for the primary resource in an industry? Perhaps, maybe it should be closer to 60%, I don't really know

Teachers teach, fair enough there are other costs associated with education, but the reality is that they are a central point of the service provision.

I don't see them going on strike. They are having their annual conferences, all interest groups will sabre rattle at such events (e.g. AGS last week), especially where a Minister is due to make a showing. It's a reminder to the powers that be that they are still there and their woes must be acknowledged at least

mossy2390 · 11-04-2012 07:41PM

teachers will never be happy regardless of what happens, the one profession that are never ever happy and make sure everyone else knows about it

gerryo777 · 11-04-2012 07:52PM

They must have too much time on their hands!

And their not 'cheap' or 'underpaid'.....

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/1500-teachers-earn-up-to-115k-a-year-189895.html

UnLuckyAgain · 11-04-2012 09:39PM

mossy2390 wrote: »

teachers will never be happy regardless of what happens, the one profession that are never ever happy and make sure everyone else knows about it

From your caustic tone I can tell you're not a teacher yourself?

Before playing the same old record of "under worked and overpaid teachers", people need to realise that teaching is probably the most fractured and fragmented profession, with full-time employment (nevermind full-time PERMANENT employment) being like gold dust. Majority of teachers may spend 5, 7, maybe up to 10 years on temporary or part-time contracts before finally getting some form of job security.

mossy2390 · 11-04-2012 09:55PM

UnLuckyAgain wrote: »

From your caustic tone I can tell you're not a teacher yourself?

Before playing the same old record of "under worked and overpaid teachers", people need to realise that teaching is probably the most fractured and fragmented profession, with full-time employment (nevermind full-time PERMANENT employment) being like gold dust. Majority of teachers may spend 5, 7, maybe up to 10 years on temporary or part-time contracts before finally getting some form of job security.

a lot like jobs in other sectors so?
and they dont get 3-4 months off a year

dont get me wrong i wouldnt become a teacher, im only out of school a couple of years and see what teachers have to put up with but at the end of the day its year decision to get into that profession so ye know all of the above when ye get into the profession, the thing is the pay is very good and the working hours are good and the holidays are second to none yet teachers are always complaining about pay and just neglect the fact of holidays whenever its brought up
teachers as a profession are far better off then a lot of other professions but are always complaining

liammur · 11-04-2012 10:02PM

mossy2390 wrote: »

a lot like jobs in other sectors so?
and they dont get 3-4 months off a year

In fairness, you are talking in circles. What good is getting 3 or 4 months off when those non permanent teachers don't get paid?

mossy2390 · 11-04-2012 10:12PM

liammur wrote: »

In fairness, you are talking in circles. What good is getting 3 or 4 months off when those non permanent teachers don't get paid?

just like in any job you don't get made permanent straight away you have to work your way up, why should teaching be any different?

Brussels Sprout · 11-04-2012 10:16PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I was speaking to a friend who works in the Revenue today about the impending teacher's strike.

Does anyone seriously think that they'd be stupid enough to go on strike. Can you imagine it? Teacher bashing is already one of the nation's favourite past-times. If they were to go on strike they'd be absolute pariahs.

Idbatterim · 11-04-2012 10:32PM

now is probably the ideal time for the government to renege on the croke park agreement, who would have an iota of sympathy for any public or civil servants?! can you imagine the tutors striking and the wrath they would face from everyone, but particularly the private sector and unemployed who have school going kids! you cant make an omelette without breaking eggs, even the short term cost of the CPA is too much! read an indo article few weeks ago saying a considerable amount of FG ministers are of the opinion that the CPA is far too high a price! Lets sort this out once and for all, if its not done in our darkest hour, when will it ever be sorted? Well done to those who voted labor and ensured another bloody wish wash of two parties pulling in different directions, in the end achieving nothing...

eric hoone · 11-04-2012 11:04PM

How can anyone blame unions for getting the best deal for their members?
On the other hand, how can the union leaders look their new members in the eye after sacrificing them at the altar of Croke Park?
It's crocodile tears they were shedding for their new collleagues at conference.

Dannyboy83 · 11-04-2012 11:44PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Does anyone seriously think that they'd be stupid enough to go on strike. Can you imagine it? Teacher bashing is already one of the nation's favourite past-times. If they were to go on strike they'd be absolute pariahs.

Honestly, I'm not so sure...

A) They went on strike when I was doing my leaving cert in 2001.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2001/0310/ireland/gbcwsngb/

A nationwide strike is scheduled for next Wednesday and, with five more walk-outs planned over the next three weeks, the state's leaving and junior certificate oral exams are in doubt.

The teachers' demands have so far been rejected by the government, which has insisted the issue can only be resolved through an existing national wage agreement.

As of yesterday, they were are again threatening the nation with strikes:

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/teachers-threaten-to-go-on-strike-if-government-cuts-their-pay-again-3076724.html

SECOND and third-level teachers yesterday warned the Government that they "can't and won't take any more" cuts to pay -- and threatened to go on strike.

Teachers threatened the Fine Gael-Labour coalition that if the Croke Park deal was breached by any reduction in allowances or pay, "all bets are off".

C) The unions in Ireland don't care what the Irish public thinks, they have proved that much over the last 3/4 years beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Nobody has said 'No' to them for a long time - plus they know they have the coalition by the balls.
And teachers believe they are 'entitled' to x,y,z.

I imagine Ruari Quinn would happily face them down, as the man genuinely does care about reforming our broken system, but it seems to me like his arm is being twisted by the cabinet, who are terrified.

Education Minister Ruairi Quinn has said the Government has no plans to change the terms of the Croke Park Agreement.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think if the Unions can find a way in which they consider the Croke Park deal has been breached (allowances), they will happily go to war.
I don't think they will need to tho - the coalition do not have the spine.

One of the ministers charged with overseeing the reform of the public service has warned of a "nuclear winter" of industrial action if the Croke Park deal is abandoned.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfideycweyql/rss2/#ixzz1rmGoFRjU

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so anyway, Ronan Lyons is on record saying that the planned savings from the Croke Park Agreement are one tenth of the actual savings required

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2011/04/26/%E2%80%9Cslash-and-burn%E2%80%9D-anything-but-the-need-for-realism-in-budget-2012/

This is on a completely different scale to what the Croke Park Agreement has currently planned. It is estimated that its efficiency measures in education would save 0.5%, one tenth of the savings needed in a single year.

Now it seems that we cannot even get this .5%, lol!!! :pac:

So since
i) we can't cut wage expenses -
and
ii) the total salary bill comprises 80% of the education budget
and
iii) I imagine the low hanging fruit has been picked, meaning that 20% covers necessities which cannot be cut further.

Well - that means spending cannot be reduced, which means we have to have tax increases, right?

Perhaps that was what Michael McGrath meant when he suggsted the Household charge will be €500 from 2013 onward

Brussels Sprout · 12-04-2012 12:53AM

The teachers may not care how they are perceived by the public at large but ultimately if they do go on strike how the cabinet will react will depend on public perception. In 2001 there was a more favourable opinion of teachers and public sector workers in general. That's probably at an all time low now though.

I can't understand why the government fear strikes. I mean the IMF are in the country. They have the perfect political and economic excuse to face down the unions.

Brussels Sprout · 12-04-2012 01:03AM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

So since
i) we can't cut wage expenses -
and
ii) the total salary bill comprises 80% of the education budget
and
iii) I imagine the low hanging fruit has been picked, meaning that 20% covers necessities which cannot be cut further.

Well - that means spending cannot be reduced, which means we have to have tax increases, right?

Don't forget that they also promised not to raise income taxes or cut social welfare or pensions.

They basically created a massive rod with which to beat themselves.

Any tax increases have to be either new taxes (household charges, water) or increasing other taxes like VAT.

The capital budget has of course already been shredded (no votes there) and then there's the other money making schemes such as taking money from private pension funds.

They are scraping the bottom of the barrel and it's still not enough. Something's got to give. So, which is it going to be?

A) Reduce Public Sector Wages? (not through natural wastage)

Social Welfare cuts?
C) Income Tax hike?
D) All of the above?
E) None of the above (Coalition falls apart triggering an election)

Dannyboy83 · 12-04-2012 01:13AM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I can't understand why the government fear strikes. I mean the IMF are in the country. They have the perfect political and economic excuse to face down the unions.

I agree, but it's just the tip of the insanity iceberg.
I mean, the public sector pay increments are still ongoing...

The main reason imo must be that Labour know on which side their bread is buttered and are terrified of haemorrhaging their vote to Sinn Fein/ULA.

lmimmfn · 12-04-2012 01:21AM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Any tax increases have to be either new taxes (household charges, water) or increasing other taxes like VAT.

Petrol/Diesel taxes should cover most of whats needed in the next few years when we hit 3euro a litre.

Brussels Sprout · 12-04-2012 10:13AM

lmimmfn wrote: »

Petrol/Diesel taxes should cover most of whats needed in the next few years when we hit 3euro a litre.

Well the excise per litre is fixed so there won't be any extra money in that. VAT is charged as a % of the fuel cost but when people buy extra petrol and diesel they pay for it by not buying other things so the gain in VAT would be balanced by the VAT losses elsewhere in the economy.

Besides, even if that wasn't the case you'd still only be scratching the surface of the 12 billion deficit with fuel taxes.

creedp · 12-04-2012 10:43AM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Don't forget that they also promised not to raise income taxes or cut social welfare or pensions.

They basically created a massive rod with which to beat themselves.

Any tax increases have to be either new taxes (household charges, water) or increasing other taxes like VAT.

The capital budget has of course already been shredded (no votes there) and then there's the other money making schemes such as taking money from private pension funds.

They are scraping the bottom of the barrel and it's still not enough. Something's got to give. So, which is it going to be?

A) Reduce Public Sector Wages? (not through natural wastage)
Social Welfare cuts?
C) Income Tax hike?
D) All of the above?
E) None of the above (Coalition falls apart triggering an election)

You forgot to mention the significant tax breaks available to those with resources to pay tax consultants for them to exploit - maybe its time for the well healed to give up on a few tax breaks at least until things level out. Its called donning the green jersey or at least that's what politicans/captains of industry call it when the masses are being asked to contribute more in this time of need .. solidarity for all

Sleepy · 12-04-2012 11:26AM

UnLuckyAgain wrote: »

From your caustic tone I can tell you're not a teacher yourself?

Before playing the same old record of "under worked and overpaid teachers", people need to realise that teaching is probably the most fractured and fragmented profession, with full-time employment (nevermind full-time PERMANENT employment) being like gold dust. Majority of teachers may spend 5, 7, maybe up to 10 years on temporary or part-time contracts before finally getting some form of job security.

And why do so many people struggle to get a permanent job as a teacher? Could it be down to the simple fact that too many people are qualifying to become teachers? It's arguably the most secure job in the country (both private or public), it's well paid, the holidays are fantastic and the hours couldn't be more family friendly. Is it any surprise there's a surplus of graduates qualified to teach? Reducing teaching salaries should actually help correct this over-supply and improve the lot of those who want to be teachers (since they'd face less competition for the jobs as those who considered the high salary above the other attractive features of being a teacher sought out that high salary in another profession).

It's the right time to face down the unions, particularly with the spectacular logic fail demonstrated by John MacGabhann's statement at this conference that “allowances are an intrinsic, indivisible part of teachers’ pay” (if they were indivisible, they wouldn't be allowances, they'd be salary :rolleyes:), the 20% figure mentioned as pay reduction sounds a rather fanciful figure to me too, especially in an environment where increments are still being paid.

Mr Quinn would, I'd imagine, have the backing of his FG colleagues at cabinet level (and undoubtedly that of the taxpayer) but, ironically, it's most likely that it'd be his own party that wouldn't have the balls to stand up to their great friends the unions.

NIMAN · 12-04-2012 11:59AM

I think teachers could take a reduction in their 'qualification allowance'. That would help. We expect teachers to have a certain level of qualification.

Plus stop getting paid for 10 or 15min of 'yard duty' every now and again. This all adds up. I would see these are part of the job, not something you should get extra money for.

And also, up around here and I'm sure it applies in other areas of the country, there are alot of free lunches given out to those who can afford to buy their own. Teachers even get the lunch free! That could save a pile of money.

nice_guy80 · 12-04-2012 02:06PM

some of the bull spouted here about teachers is unbelievable

just because a newspaper prints figures, doesn't mean they are accurate

all the principals and vice principals are included in those salary figures. they receive extra for their duties, so technically they are management.
principals into the classroom??? the majority of principals in primary schools ARE in the classroom. The rest run big schools, which can have from 8 up to 40 staff.
As for principals secondary schools, the responsibility they have is like running a company

yard supervision is included. that is not basic salary as people can ipt out of it and it also not paid until the end of the year, when you only get one third of it due to tax.Teachers do yard duty during their breaks. it is EU law that they get paid for it. would a factory worker have to keep working during their lunch??

qualification allowances are basically to acknowledge that you are qualified andhave the teacher training done. In the past many people (some still do) worked as teachers who were not fully qualified.

free lunches? lunches are provided to children in schools located in disadvantaged areas. often they are sent to school with no lunch. yes teachers often eat the left over sandwiches and fruit. whats the harm in that?

Sleepy · 12-04-2012 02:09PM

Who needs a newspaper to tell them that teachers are over-paid? Their union does it for you:

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scale/salary-scale-for-teachers-appointed-prior-to-january-2011/

n97 mini · 12-04-2012 02:44PM

An interesting contrast as to how the threat of strike action from the public sector can be viewed, and subsequently handled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paF5tEaqcVQ

thenumbersguy · 12-04-2012 07:28PM

Try this site for detailed pay stats and links

http://nospinireland.com/index.html

n97 mini · 12-04-2012 08:43PM

Needs work. Front page mentions "public sector pat rates". Pats are a perk I didn't know they were getting.

femur61 · 13-04-2012 07:42AM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I
Over 80% of the education budget goes on wages and I can't imagine there is any low hanging fruit left to pick - so I genuinely cannot fathom where the money will come from if not from tax increases?

What do forum members think will be the outcome?

I was talking to my sister in laws yesterday who are public sector workers (4 of them). None are teachers and all feel exactly the same OP They have hit the nail on the head. They are getting annoyed at the behavior of the teachers unions and their members they feel they should appreciate how lucky they are. Everybody knows compared to other OECD countries they are near the top of wage earners.

touts · 13-04-2012 08:00AM

It is a bit silly to blame the next lot of tax rises (and there will be tax rises) on the teachers. The whole public expenditure needs to be cut. Teachers, Nurses, Civil servants, Welfare etc.

It is not surprising that a pencil pusher in Revenue said "oh it's all the fault of another department". She might as well have said "Don't cut me. Please don't cut me. Cut them!".

No one department can take all the blame and no one department can take all the pain. Croke Park needs to be scrapped. It is a Toxic deal and is making the country sick. There needs to be large scale targetted layoffs in the administration and back office functions of all departments. The remaining admin functions and the frontline functions need to then need to completely redesign their work practices to be efficent in maximising output rather than maximising staff numbers. Allowances, expenses and possibly salaries will all have to be cut.

At the same time we need significant cuts to welfare. It is insane that there are thousands of parents who are still saving the Children's allowance. Hell the post office has savings plans designed specifically to allow them do that. That needs to stop. Also paying for things like €400 communion dresses and a €200 bouncy castle has to stop immediately. Then the welfare payments in general need to be benchmarked to come into line with the EU averages. When you see thousands of east europeans happy to sit on the dole here where instead of going home when they lost their jobs you know something is desperately wrong with our levels of payment.

And we need to stop the general sense of entitlement that wider society has. For example just go onto the UL section and look at the outrage at having to pay for medical treatment as well as getting a free university education. When did university education include a right to free healthcare regardless of your ability to pay? We all need to accept that we have to pay our way. No one owes us a living.

However that simply is not going to happen with Labour in government. They are the political wing of the trade unions. So there will be general avoidance of reform within the civil service and possibly even an extension on the Croke Park deal. Individual groups will continue to point at other groups in the hope of continuing to confuse things. At the same time the German loan sharks will continue to demand repayment of the money Seanie Fitz and the Lads sto... sorry borrowed from them. To fund all that taxes for private sector workers will have to increase north of 60% while property taxes will have to average out somewhere around €1000 per house.

More tax increases due to unions?

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