Is Ireland now a modern third world country ?

Graham Bright · 06-04-2012 10:43AM #1

Hi,
I am responding to the recent HSE report on the number of Irish people waiting to see a consultant. I live here in Austria and while I have public health insurance I do not pay private health care like VHI ....

In the last 3 years I have had to wait maybe longest 1 week to visit a specialist ranging from ear nose and throat to neurology. Furthermore, if I need a scan for example an ultra scan or CT scan I only have to wait a very short period of time.

This is compared to my Mother, who lives in Ireland and had to have two artificial knee replacements. In utter pain she remained on a waiting list until my Father contacted a local TD who helped speed up the process.

So what the heck is happening to modern Ireland it looks like it's all wrong from our social health care to banking etc?

To add to this public transportation is appalling most noticeably in urban areas such as Dublin city centre. The number of Taxis and buses is amazing, no underground system, no train link to the airport where the heck did all that money from the Celtic Tiger go?

Additionally, the topic of tribunals, what another example of a way to waste your money. It’s nice to see Minsters James Reilly and Michael Noonen defending Michael Lowry isn't it.

This all begs the question when will us Irish wake up and smell the coffee, and demand proper justice, healthcare, public transportation and the likes.

The rich continue to get richer, while the middle class is eroding away....

Graham

Davyhal · 06-04-2012 10:50AM

"Is Ireland now a modern third world country ?"

No... You are complaining about the transport systems and heath care systems not being up to scratch... If it were a 3rd world country, there would not be transport systems and health care systems to speak of at all...

Go to Sub-Saharan Africa and look at the shanty towns, lack of facilities, high mortality rates. We are feeling sorry for ourselves in this country, but don't go saying we are in the same boat as the poor misfortunates who are truly suffering...

We simply have to adjust to not all being ridiculously well off as we were before, and also have some perspective

Welease · 06-04-2012 10:53AM

Graham Bright wrote: »

Hi,
This all begs the question when will us Irish wake up and smell the coffee, and demand proper justice, healthcare, public transportation and the likes.

Right after they realise and agree they have to plan, pay for and deliver services of that level and respond accordingly..

I wouldn't hold your breath.

Nwm2 · 06-04-2012 10:54AM

You clearly have no comprehension at all about what conditions exist in the third world.

Sleepy · 06-04-2012 11:01AM

Graham Bright wrote: »

Additionally, the topic of tribunals, what another example of a way to waste your money. It’s nice to see Minsters James Reilly and Michael Noonen defending Michael Lowry isn't it

What else can they do than meet with him in his capacity as a TD?

As long as the people of Tipperary want to elect a criminal to represent them and there's no legislation barring criminals from running for, or holding, public office, the ministers of the day have to meet with other TD's when requested to do so to address official business.

They don't have to like the individual but can you imagine the reaction if they were to turn around and completely ignore members of the opposition simply because they don't like them? Sinn Fein, the SWP / ULA etc. would be rioting on the streets if they did it.

Graham Bright · 06-04-2012 11:05AM

Sorry I disagree with you quote "modern third world country" a new definition not an existing African nation were social views and ideologies are different. Maybe I should rephrase the subject "modern European third world country". Feeling sorry for ourselves is unavoidable considering the mess the country is in and the role the media plays. I was home in Ireland for Christmas; the news is constantly reporting the bad and the negative.

Adjustment will happen alright with thousands emigrating to go to Canada and Europe, people dying of cancer because they can't get modern health care, is that the adjustment you mean

Davyhal wrote: »

"Is Ireland now a modern third world country ?"

No... You are complaining about the transport systems and heath care systems not being up to scratch... If it were a 3rd world country, there would not be transport systems and health care systems to speak of at all...

Go to Sub-Saharan Africa and look at the shanty towns, lack of facilities, high mortality rates. We are feeling sorry for ourselves in this country, but don't go saying we are in the same boat as the poor misfortunates who are truly suffering...

We simply have to adjust to not all being ridiculously well off as we were before, and also have some perspective

Graham Bright · 06-04-2012 11:11AM

Nwm2 wrote: »

You clearly have no comprehension at all about what conditions exist in the third world.

GOOGLE third world country.

Ok I admit maybe the term third world is too harsh and I apologise for that but a lot what is mentioned below makes sense ....

"
Unlike an industrial nation where certain criteria are met, these are nations which struggle to compete because of a lack of one or more of the following: health, education, employment, resources, money, and other various factors. Many are also hampered by corrupt governments who have long ago given up on looking after their own people and use funds to fatten their own wallets while their citizens are starving in the streets. Some are hampered by war or out of control epidemics such as AIDS. These factors make it next to impossible for them to compete in any real way with the industrialized nations

"

Head The Wall · 06-04-2012 12:35PM

Did I miss the stage where we were a second world country or did we just bypass it altogether?

Tipp Man · 06-04-2012 01:12PM

Sleepy wrote: »

What else can they do than meet with him in his capacity as a TD?

As long as the people of Tipperary want to elect a criminal to represent them and there's no legislation barring criminals from running for, or holding, public office, the ministers of the day have to meet with other TD's when requested to do so to address official business.

They don't have to like the individual but can you imagine the reaction if they were to turn around and completely ignore members of the opposition simply because they don't like them? Sinn Fein, the SWP / ULA etc. would be rioting on the streets if they did it.

Hey whats Tipperary ever done to you?

Dare i say it but a former FF leader living only a couple of miles from Clontarf has done a million times (or many billion as it turns out) more damage than Lowry ever did

Anyway I agree that as long as Lowry is a TD then he should have the same access opportunities to Ministers as all other TD's

antoobrien · 06-04-2012 01:47PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

Dare i say it but a former FF leader living only a couple of miles from Clontarf has done a million times (or many billion as it turns out) more damage than Lowry ever did

Indeed as well as the granddady of all former ff leaders that are crooks that used to live in Kinsealy(now deceased).

Isn't it amazing what happens when we leave the Dubs in charge, they f*ck the thing up royally.

later12 · 06-04-2012 01:55PM

Sleepy wrote: »

What else can they do than meet with him in his capacity as a TD?

As long as the people of Tipperary want to elect a criminal to represent them and there's no legislation barring criminals from running for, or holding, public office, the ministers of the day have to meet with other TD's when requested to do so to address official business.

They don't have to like the individual but can you imagine the reaction if they were to turn around and completely ignore members of the opposition simply because they don't like them? Sinn Fein, the SWP / ULA etc. would be rioting on the streets if they did it.

Is it worth even mentioning that Michael Lowry is not actually a criminal?

I don't want to get into an unseemly turf war here, but if you want to talk about shady political representatives, then it ought to be worth remembering that Ireland's two shadiest Taoisigh came from the capital, and that the Mahon report focused exclusively on corruption therein at the hands of elected (and re-elected) officials.

On the Lowry issue, he's actually a very effective TD at getting things done. He was a very popular Minister among civil servants, and maintains a lot of contacts in various departments.

You might not like it, but under the Irish electoral system, a regular TD is not a serious player in central government policymaking. That's just not what the constitution provides for. We have a system whereby we elect three, four or five local men to go up to Dublin and bring back as much as they can. A small number of such men will enter government, the majority will be men who are there to smash and grab. And Lowry smashes and grabs exceedingly well.

Defiler Of The Coffin · 06-04-2012 02:45PM

When your relations have to walk miles everyday to extract water from a well we can then talk about Ireland being a third world country. Right now we're not even close. Despite the state of the health service Ireland is still ranked 7 on the recent Human Development Index. We have our problems but calling Ireland a third-world country is grossly false.

woodoo · 06-04-2012 03:07PM

Graham Bright wrote: »

Hi,
I am responding to the recent HSE report on the number of Irish people waiting to see a consultant. I live here in Austria and while I have public health insurance I do not pay private health care like VHI ....

In the last 3 years I have had to wait maybe longest 1 week to visit a specialist ranging from ear nose and throat to neurology. Furthermore, if I need a scan for example an ultra scan or CT scan I only have to wait a very short period of time.

This is compared to my Mother, who lives in Ireland and had to have two artificial knee replacements. In utter pain she remained on a waiting list until my Father contacted a local TD who helped speed up the process.

So what the heck is happening to modern Ireland it looks like it's all wrong from our social health care to banking etc?

To add to this public transportation is appalling most noticeably in urban areas such as Dublin city centre. The number of Taxis and buses is amazing, no underground system, no train link to the airport where the heck did all that money from the Celtic Tiger go?

Additionally, the topic of tribunals, what another example of a way to waste your money. It’s nice to see Minsters James Reilly and Michael Noonen defending Michael Lowry isn't it.

This all begs the question when will us Irish wake up and smell the coffee, and demand proper justice, healthcare, public transportation and the likes.

The rich continue to get richer, while the middle class is eroding away....

Graham

Perhaps we need a new classification system. At best we are a tier 2 first world country.

Waiting 4 years to see a consultant is kind of unbelievable when you think about it. I was put down as urgent for a gastroscopy and waited 3 months. I was pretty relieved that it was only 3 months but it is still way too long if you are deemed urgent.

Corruption and the lack of police action on it is another mark of a backward country. Where the hell are the guards when it comes to the findings of these tribunals. Nobody seems to be asking that question of them in the media.

later12 · 06-04-2012 03:50PM

woodoo wrote: »

At best we are a tier 2 first world country.

Most of these rankings appear to be handed out on the premise that there is some perfect Tier 1 ranking, you know, somewhere over there, where the grass is greener and everything is clockwork. I always think it's amusing when my German brother in law, who lives in Ireland, talks about how much cheaper life is in Ireland and how he doesn't have to spend any time waiting in traffic.

We all see problems which do not exist in other countries, particularly in relation to public services. But look deeper into those countries and you will also see problems which they have that Irish people do not have to worry about - from poor social cohesion in France, to Sweden's systembolaget and high taxes 'nanny state', to the lack of motorways in Finland. Nowhere's perfect, and I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that Ireland is seriously imperfect - yes - even with its bailout.

Sleepy · 06-04-2012 04:01PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

Hey whats Tipperary ever done to you?

Repeatedly elected Lowry

Dare i say it but a former FF leader living only a couple of miles from Clontarf has done a million times (or many billion as it turns out) more damage than Lowry ever did

Assuming you're referring to Ahern, I'd happily disembowel him given free reign to do so. I think Clontarf's "great" contributions have been Haughey Junior and that famous West Cork resident Ivor Callely (his son certainly ran in the district since I've moved into it).

Anyway I agree that as long as Lowry is a TD then he should have the same access opportunities to Ministers as all other TD's

Would you also agree that people of his ilk should be prevented from holding office? i.e. any criminal charges or tribunal findings of inappropriate behaviour and you're ineligible as a candidate (akin to the current laws around bankrupts)

antoobrien wrote: »

Indeed as well as the granddady of all former ff leaders that are crooks that used to live in Kinsealy(now deceased).

Isn't it amazing what happens when we leave the Dubs in charge, they f*ck the thing up royally.

It's his son that runs around Clontarf nowadays but he lost his seat in the Fianna Fail massacre of the last election.

later12 wrote: »

Is it worth even mentioning that Michael Lowry is not actually a criminal?

Splitting some fine hairs there though, no, he's never been convicted, and while he's never likely to be I'm sure we can agree he's broken a few laws even if his status ensures he'll never be held accountable for it?

I don't want to get into an unseemly turf war here, but if you want to talk about shady political representatives, then it ought to be worth remembering that Ireland's two shadiest Taoisigh came from the capital, and that the Mahon report focused exclusively on corruption therein at the hands of elected (and re-elected) officials.

On the Lowry issue, he's actually a very effective TD at getting things done. He was a very popular Minister among civil servants, and maintains a lot of contacts in various departments.

You might not like it, but under the Irish electoral system, a regular TD is not a serious player in central government policymaking. That's just not what the constitution provides for. We have a system whereby we elect three, four or five local men to go up to Dublin and bring back as much as they can. A small number of such men will enter government, the majority will be men who are there to smash and grab. And Lowry smashes and grabs exceedingly well.

You're right, I don't like it. I consider a TD's job to be to take part in the governing of the country not to grab whatever he can for his constituency and tbh, I vote accordingly.

BTW: While I've spent most of my adult life in Dublin for work and am raising my family here because, again, it's where the work is, I'm actually from Galway so not sure that the insinuation I'm a short-sighted Dub are entirely accurate.

woodoo · 06-04-2012 04:09PM

later12 wrote: »

Most of these rankings appear to be handed out on the premise that there is some perfect Tier 1 ranking, you know, somewhere over there, where the grass is greener and everything is clockwork. I always think it's amusing when my German brother in law, who lives in Ireland, talks about how much cheaper life is in Ireland and how he doesn't have to spend any time waiting in traffic.

We all see problems which do not exist in other countries, particularly in relation to public services. But look deeper into those countries and you will also see problems which they have that Irish people do not have to worry about - from poor social cohesion in France, to Sweden's systembolaget and high taxes 'nanny state', to the lack of motorways in Finland. Nowhere's perfect, and I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that Ireland is seriously imperfect - yes - even with its bailout.

I take it you have private health insurance or are very healthy.

PoleStar · 06-04-2012 04:13PM

I want to add in to what others have already said in relation to using in any way "third world" as a reference.

People give out about the health service here. Let me give you all something to confirm. A friend of mine is a doctor now working in Ireland but originally from sub-Saharan Africa. When he finished medical school, he was sent to the equivalent of a county hospital. Was he like an intern here in Ireland learning the trade as an apprentice?

No, he was the ONLY doctor in the hospital. Not only that, but he was the ONLY doctor in a huge area. People use to walk for days to come see this fresh faced doctor with NO experience. Often patients died on the way. He had to operate on patients with no experience. Mortality was high. Sterilization, antibiotics were un heard of luxuries. THAT is third world.

washman3 · 06-04-2012 04:23PM

Graham Bright wrote: »

This is compared to my Mother, who lives in Ireland and had to have two artificial knee replacements. In utter pain she remained on a waiting list until my father contacted a local TD who helped speed up the process.
Graham

And there my good friend is the exact answer to your own question.
Ireland is in this mess because of this rotten to the core corruption scenario.
when a local TD can have an input into whether your mother (probably elderly) should be in pain or not, God help us and the direction this country is heading.
Remember the Local TD's intervention left somebody else,somewhere else, in probably longer pain simply because his/her family do not vote for his party. Sad indeed.:mad:

andrew · 06-04-2012 04:58PM

woodoo wrote: »

I take it you have private health insurance or are very healthy.

He could literally be an immortal trillionaire and it wouldn't make a difference. To compare Ireland to a less developed country is laughable. People here (and in general) have a bias toward negative things. It's only natural. But once you take a broader look at everything that isn't wrong with this country, it's actally grand.

Take the rule of law for example. We have it. It's great. The level of crime is relatively low, contracts are enforced, people go to jail all the time. This is something that happens only very rarely in 3rd world countries. Yet the fact that the odd time the justice system doesn't do it's job would have people complaining here that the entire system is broken. It's incredibly myopic.

djpbarry · 06-04-2012 05:05PM

Graham Bright wrote: »

This is compared to my Mother, who lives in Ireland and had to have two artificial knee replacements. In utter pain she remained on a waiting list until my Father contacted a local TD who helped speed up the process.

I find that very hard to believe.

Graham Bright wrote: »

This all begs the question when will us Irish wake up and smell the coffee, and demand proper justice, healthcare, public transportation and the likes.

Demanding improvements in public services is one thing, but failing to recognise that, in the global scheme of things, public services in Ireland are very good, is quite another.

djpbarry · 06-04-2012 05:09PM

andrew wrote: »

He could literally be an immortal trillionaire and it wouldn't make a difference. To compare Ireland to a less developed country is laughable. People here (and in general) have a bias toward negative things. It's only natural. But once you take a broader look at everything that isn't wrong with this country, it's actally grand.

Absolutely. People dismiss Ireland's health care system on the basis of long waiting times, for example, but ignore the fact that patient outcomes are generally very good.

Manach · 06-04-2012 05:19PM

Perhaps Ireland in analagous to an older family, living on the accumulated capital of generations gone by, being passed by , by newer powers which had been in a third world status and now having a greater standard of living.

firemansam4 · 06-04-2012 05:35PM

Graham Bright wrote: »

GOOGLE third world country.

Ok I admit maybe the term third world is too harsh and I apologise for that but a lot what is mentioned below makes sense ....

"
Unlike an industrial nation where certain criteria are met, these are nations which struggle to compete because of a lack of one or more of the following: health, education, employment, resources, money, and other various factors. Many are also hampered by corrupt governments who have long ago given up on looking after their own people and use funds to fatten their own wallets while their citizens are starving in the streets. Some are hampered by war or out of control epidemics such as AIDS. These factors make it next to impossible for them to compete in any real way with the industrialized nations

"

Absolutely ridiculous post!!

How can you ever come any where near to comparing Ireland to a third world country, it is ridiculous. Yes we are a poorer country in Europe and probably a bit more corruption in politics than other country's.
But come on the population here is hardly starving at the moment, maybe you should talk to someone living in Syria at the moment and compare the way there people have been treated by there government to ours.

Yes the corruption here and the stupid mistakes that are governments have made irritates the f.... out of me but we are far from the same situation as third world country's.

jaydoxx · 06-04-2012 05:41PM

To answer the title question, no.
Thread can be closed now.

southsiderosie · 06-04-2012 05:51PM

later12 wrote: »

Most of these rankings appear to be handed out on the premise that there is some perfect Tier 1 ranking, you know, somewhere over there, where the grass is greener and everything is clockwork. I always think it's amusing when my German brother in law, who lives in Ireland, talks about how much cheaper life is in Ireland and how he doesn't have to spend any time waiting in traffic.

We all see problems which do not exist in other countries, particularly in relation to public services. But look deeper into those countries and you will also see problems which they have that Irish people do not have to worry about - from poor social cohesion in France, to Sweden's systembolaget and high taxes 'nanny state', to the lack of motorways in Finland. Nowhere's perfect, and I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that Ireland is seriously imperfect - yes - even with its bailout.

While I think that comparing Ireland to a Third World country is pretty ridiculous, I do think that asking 'where did the money go'? is a legitimate complaint. Because let's face it: public transportation in Dublin is a joke, there has been serious underinvestment in educational facilities, and there are still severe problems with poverty, drug use, and social exclusion in urban areas. Ireland had a golden opportunity to invest in transport, educational, and health infrastructure, and the state essentially blew its wad on inflated salaries, pointless quangos, and a transit system with two lines that do not connect. So I think a bit of grumpiness is warranted, even if things in Ireland aren't as bad as, say, Somalia!

Icepick · 06-04-2012 05:58PM

Ireland is still one of the richest and most developed countries in the world.
Things can obviously be much better but you have no idea what life is like in developing countries.

ninty9er · 06-04-2012 06:06PM

Gini Coefficient 2009:

Gini%2Bindex%2BEU.jpg

Full article:
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-the-boom-made-ireland-a-more-equal-society-surprised/

And before anyone tells me the figures are out of date. That's after austerity began.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/dec/01/corruption-index-2011-transparency-international

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/interactive/

Heads in the sand if you think Ireland is a corrupt country by international standards, let alone third world. It is ranked in the same category (3rd cleanest of 9) as Austria, Belgium, the UK, US and France. The are 27 countries in the top third, the bottom third contains 115 countries, compared to 41 in the middle third.

bbam · 06-04-2012 08:10PM

I think allot of the bashing of the health system is overdone. My family has had to need the services from minor to terminal and on the whole found it a positive experience, there were aspects which could be improved but it was overall good.
In general people don't wait to see a specialist if they have been properly diagnosed as being urgent cases. Children always get to see a consultant and many hospitals have children specific A&E departments.
Those who are terminal get excellant understanding and care to the extent of palliative care in their homes for the end of their life if that is their wish.

The fractured nature of local hospitals and the funding they receive is an issue, there is waste in the system that needs eliminating. Management has never successfully been addressed. But from a clinical and nursing perspective we have a good system.

Yes sometimes there are choices where a knee replacement has to wait to allow potentially life threatening Surgury be completed, but that is a good decision. There will never be a situation where everyone is treated immediately. This doesn't happen in states with way higher tax rates and more advanced systems than ourselves.

bbam · 06-04-2012 08:16PM

I forgot to add that OP should experience a third world country first hand to understand it.
Seriously, it is a humbling experience that left me riddled with guilt about how we live and the "problems" we think we have.

Solair · 07-04-2012 11:42PM

From what I can see *EVERY* developed country is somewhat corrupt. None of them are perfectly non-corrupt.

Scratch beneath there surface and there's always some kind of big corruption going on, or blind eyes being turned to it.

You can find similar stories in the UK, France, Ireland, Germany, Italy, and absolutely definitely in the USA etc etc.

Also, in the recent financial crisis nobody in the USA was prosecuted for anything other than Bernie Madoff who was running a simple ponzi scheme and pleaded guilty... The absolutely massive level of disasterous banking and investment banking practice has gone unchecked, unprosecuted and remains largely unregulated.

Also, nobody seem to find it unusual that Wall Street etc funds political campaigns over there.

As for the Irish health service, it's largely down to poor management of resources rather than lack of them.
We desperately need to reform how it's run.
The problem's largely that nobody has had the brass neck to go in and tell it like it is and start reducing insanely overpaid salaries, slashing through the administration staffing costs, making things efficient, merging hospitals, getting rid of some of the independence of hospitals etc forcing GPs into clinics and into the public sector etc etc.

It's all been a case of kicking the can down the road and not taking the hard issues on that has gotten a lot of the health service here into the mess it is in now.

Skopzz · 08-04-2012 01:41AM

Ireland Teeters on the Verge of Bankruptcy

THE REASON:
FG-LAB's insistence we pay 35% of GDP to a toxic bank.

Ireland is on the brink of bankruptcy despite the fact that the Euro-Zone recession has yet to hit the country with full force. But the government is still trying to put a positive spin on things. FG-LAB must be removed by any means necessary otherwise we don't know what tomorrow will bring

Is Ireland now a modern third world country ?

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