Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

Mitch Connor · 06-04-2012 11:38AM

I partly agree with Des in saying that Jones hasn't looked as good at CB as he has in other roles. His enthusiasm and lack of experience have found him charging out of position to get the ball, and failing to recover - with a number very good chances being presented to the opposition as a result of this.

I do think though, and I could be wrong, that the majority of his appearances at CB have been with Smalling or Evans. So the partnerships have lacked experience. I would like to see Jones play CB with Ferdinand a bit - with Jones being the all action CB and Ferdinand sweeping behind. Rio talking to Jones regarding position and when to hold would, imo, also help his game.

I have said a number of times that Jones isn't a very good CB at the moment - he isn't disciplined enough for the role yet. I would say that will come though, and that I think he is going to be a world class CB soon enough - I just think he needs experience there, which he will get in time.

Right now though, Evans and Smalling would be ahead of him in the pecking order. (along with Rio and Vidic)

Blatter · 06-04-2012 11:49AM

Trilla wrote: »

How many games has he played at CB?

Second half of the CS v City - Played well

Last 20 mins v West Brom away - Did well

Tottenham home - Was brilliant

Arsenal home - Was good

Chelsea home - Was good overall however a couple of mistakes began to creep in.

Stoke away - Was good in that game.

Those were at the start of the season, If Mitch still has the statistics for the ratings of those games, I think it would show most thought he did really well.

Basel home - Poor

Norwich home - Did Okay (I remember him putting in a couple of great last ditch tackles, but caught out a bit too.

Aldershot away - Beside Vidic, untroubled as one would expect.

Benfica home - Dodgy enough performance. Scored an OG, but wasn't too bad overall.

Blackburn home - Poor, but beside Michael Carrick.

Newcastle away - Poor

Ajax home - Poor, but played with Smalling, Fabio and Rafael, who were all equally as poor.

And those are all his games at centre back for United, to the best of my knowledge. I think his last few appearances there have skewed peoples' opinions on how good of a CB he actually is, he's done pretty well there overall for his first season and you would expect him to be even better there next season.

Giggsy11 · 06-04-2012 11:55AM

Blatter wrote: »

I agree, but I was already making allowances for that. The way I'm looking at it is, presume Vidic will play most games and Rio plays half. How many games is there for Evans, Smalling and Jones? I don't see too many, and iirc SAF has already said he doesn't plan to rotate as much next season. There would also be the issue of Evans not playing consistently, which has affected him in the past. It wouldn't surprised me if SAF wants to make him first choice for next season after his performances this season. It would certainly be a lot easier to do that if one of Rio or Vidic weren't here and imo we'd still cope with Smalling and Jones as back up.

We should be fine for the fullback positions assuming we sign someone. Evra, Fabio, Rafael and say Clyne would be no problem imo. Even if we did need Jones to fill in at RB, the odds are that we should still have 2 fit centre backs left out of the other 3.

I wouldn't be so sure about Rio playing half games. And also I dont think Vidic will be playing every game when he is fit. Fergie will rotate and he did it with every other player maybe except Evra and Rooney. We didn't make Champions league ko round, early exit from carling cup and FA, maybe next season if we do well in all the cups then we will be have many 3 games a week, I'm sure everyone with get their chances.

Also Fergie said he didn't expect Jones to play so many games in his first season and because of injury he was forced to play him. So maybe next few season will be a slow learning process for him?

Like Des said even I think he is not a good CB currently. He was very impressive as a RB but not as a CB. He may go onto become our first choice CB or CM, but imo he is not there yet.

Mitch Connor · 06-04-2012 11:58AM

Blatter wrote: »

Those were at the start of the season, If Mitch still has the statistics for the ratings of those games, I think it would show most thought he did really well.

August

September

What I would say is that people can be, and are, swayed by attacking contributions. Everyone will acknowledge that Jones loves to rampage forward with the ball - and iirc we had a few attacks start with him bursting forward with the ball. Those bursts forward will have excited people and contributed to the ratings he got. When discussing his performances at CB, it would be important to analyse the games with an eye on his defensive aspects alone, which we aren't likely to do now.

I'm not saying he was poor in those games defensively, because I can't quite recall now if he was or wasn't - just pointing out that a high rating can be down to his attacking runs rather than being defensively sound.

Jimmy Iovine · 06-04-2012 12:38PM

Keno 92 wrote: »

Manchester United’s five key players this season

They chose Evra not Carrick.

Here is what they wrote on Evra

That is brilliant. I had to thank it. That was just pure and utter laziness from the writer. He saw Evans doing well and assumed Evra was as well. Sheer class.

The good thing is that no one is agreeing with them in the comments. At least not all United supporters are blind.

Al Capwned · 06-04-2012 12:59PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

What I would say is that people can be, and are, swayed by attacking contributions. Everyone will acknowledge that Jones loves to rampage forward with the ball - and iirc we had a few attacks start with him bursting forward with the ball. Those bursts forward will have excited people and contributed to the ratings he got. When discussing his performances at CB, it would be important to analyse the games with an eye on his defensive aspects alone, which we aren't likely to do now.

I'm not saying he was poor in those games defensively, because I can't quite recall now if he was or wasn't - just pointing out that a high rating can be down to his attacking runs rather than being defensively sound.

Absolutely spot on.....

ShooterSF · 06-04-2012 02:11PM

Keno 92 wrote: »

Manchester United’s five key players this season

They chose Evra not Carrick.

Here is what they wrote on Evra

-_-

Equally baffling is the amount of support for Young to be in the top 5 from a lot of commenters . He had a good start to the season along with Ando Clev and all the attack but apart from one or two goals lately has been very average...

Mitch Connor · 06-04-2012 02:18PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

Equally baffling is the amount of support for Young to be in the top 5 from a lot of commenters . He had a good start to the season along with Ando Clev and all the attack but apart from one or two goals lately has been very average...

But he scored a few goals lately....

That really is the mentality you are seeing. Once someone is racking up assists and goals very few people care what else they are doing. If they have performed well, even just statistically, in the last few games people will stretch that out over the season.

Giggs and Nani are two great examples of this. Likely to be shocking for 89 minutes, giving the ball away through poor passes, crosses or shots - but a very good chance they will score or assist before the match is done. If they do, they will be given an 8 by most fans and most will consider they have had a good game.

Same with Jones re. earlier comments - defensive mistakes are forgotten about as long as he goes on a few attacking runs and we don't concede because of him directly.

Same with Evra - his attacking qualities mask his defensive issues for a lot of fans.

My key 5 for the season would be:

Rooney, Carrick, Valencia, Evans, De Gea.

Other players have contributed brilliant at times - Nani at the start of the season, Scholes has been immense since coming back and absolutely key to our resurgence imo.

Jimmy Iovine · 06-04-2012 02:31PM

If Nani never got injured then he'd be in contention for POTY imo. His season from December on has been too stop start to get any momentum going at all.

Thankfully Valencia has stepped up in his absence. Hopefully next year we might be able to see the two of them playing at the same time.

kryogen · 06-04-2012 02:35PM

The way I see the centre back situation is

Vidic - Captain, first choice, not absolutely certain how much longer he will be with the club, just a hunch, 2 years anyway I imagine.

Rio - Invaluable experience, hugely popular and still well able to perform at a high level

Evans - Cemented his place this season as first choice for me, him and Vidic havent worked great as a partnership before however from memory

Smalling - Good enough to be first choice already imo and hopefully just behind Evans in the pecking order

Jones - Not good enough yet to be first choice, but is so young and the benefit of having a fit Vidic and keeping Rio would be great for him to me.

In short, I would keep Rio for at least another year, especially if he is willing to take a nice wage cut as it seems, he brings plenty to the squad, is a leader and can be relied upon in crisis. Get him doing his coaching stuff too and let him take less of a role in the playing squad, he will still get plenty of games hopefully as the team will be in a few competitions, hopefully.

For next season I think we should start with

Vidic and Evans, with Smalling as the next in line, Rio then alternating with Jones and helping to mentor the two younger guys, if Evans and Vidic dont make a good partnership swap Evans for Smalling, or make the big decision and move Vidic on earlier then anticipated.

Hard to imagine life without Vidic in the past couple of seasons, and I know his loss has been huge this season, but Smalling will become a dominant force in the air I believe and more experience will make them all better defenders.

Blatter · 06-04-2012 02:36PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure about Rio playing half games. And also I dont think Vidic will be playing every game when he is fit. Fergie will rotate and he did it with every other player maybe except Evra and Rooney. We didn't make Champions league ko round, early exit from carling cup and FA, maybe next season if we do well in all the cups then we will be have many 3 games a week, I'm sure everyone with get their chances.

Also Fergie said he didn't expect Jones to play so many games in his first season and because of injury he was forced to play him. So maybe next few season will be a slow learning process for him?

Like Des said even I think he is not a good CB currently. He was very impressive as a RB but not as a CB. He may go onto become our first choice CB or CM, but imo he is not there yet.

I don't think there should be a question over whether Jones is ready to be our FOURTH choice centre back tbh, of course he is! Especially when you look at the fourth choice centre back of other teams.

Look at it this way, do you think we would be weak at CB going into the season with Vidic, Evans, Smalling and Jones as our CBs, especially in comparison to the centre backs at the disposal of Real Madrid or Manchester City?

What would you prefer?;

A. Vidic, Evans, Smalling, Jones

B. Kompany, Lescott, Toure, Savic

C. Ramos, Pepe, Carvalho, Varane

I really don't see the need for 5 CBs, especially with a bloated wage bill. A situation whereby 2 of our CBs will be frozen out, have their development stunted and become unhappy is far more likely to occur than all 5 getting decent game time due to another horrific injury crisis.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

August

September

What I would say is that people can be, and are, swayed by attacking contributions. Everyone will acknowledge that Jones loves to rampage forward with the ball - and iirc we had a few attacks start with him bursting forward with the ball. Those bursts forward will have excited people and contributed to the ratings he got. When discussing his performances at CB, it would be important to analyse the games with an eye on his defensive aspects alone, which we aren't likely to do now.

I'm not saying he was poor in those games defensively, because I can't quite recall now if he was or wasn't - just pointing out that a high rating can be down to his attacking runs rather than being defensively sound.

I agree that his attacking play earned him a few extra brownie points, but he was still very good defensively as I remember it. He certainly wasn't poor in that regard, that's for sure. If you remember back then, we were giving up a lot of chances because of the sheer amount of space left in midfield on front of the back 4, very rarely were chances given up due to poor play from our centre backs.

Our centre backs actually excelled in that period, because we didn't actually concede many goals, despite being so exposed by the midfield.

kryogen · 06-04-2012 02:41PM

My 5 top players this season, is actually a hard one, few tough calls.

De Gea - Easy choice, been immense for most of the season
Evans - Edges Rio out on the defensive side, just for me, Rio has been a great influence.
Carrick - Again, great season by Carrick, one of his biggest critics but we would be far worse without him this year, came in a steadied the midfield. Rarely had a bad performance.
Rooney - Been somewhat quieter this year, in terms of the media etc, but has gone about his work on the pitch brilliantly.
Valencia - Brilliant, been on fire lately, and for most of the season tbh, when fit. Arguably the outstanding player of the season

Nani, if he had stayed fit would be in the running, Welbeck has had a good season, Rio has brought plenty to the table and Scholes gets an honourable mention too.

Blatter · 06-04-2012 02:45PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But he scored a few goals lately....

That really is the mentality you are seeing. Once someone is racking up assists and goals very few people care what else they are doing. If they have performed well, even just statistically, in the last few games people will stretch that out over the season.

Giggs and Nani are two great examples of this. Likely to be shocking for 89 minutes, giving the ball away through poor passes, crosses or shots - but a very good chance they will score or assist before the match is done. If they do, they will be given an 8 by most fans and most will consider they have had a good game.

Same with Jones re. earlier comments - defensive mistakes are forgotten about as long as he goes on a few attacking runs and we don't concede because of him directly.

Same with Evra - his attacking qualities mask his defensive issues for a lot of fans.

My key 5 for the season would be:

Rooney, Carrick, Valencia, Evans, De Gea.

Other players have contributed brilliant at times - Nani at the start of the season, Scholes has been immense since coming back and absolutely key to our resurgence imo.

You would hate to be keeping tabs on Garth Crooks' team of the week on the BBC website. :pac:

I go on it for a laugh sometimes, he just picks all the players that scored! I really do wonder how these people get jobs in football media.

Just look at last weeks one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17580431

And the week before...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17507702

Al Capwned · 06-04-2012 02:49PM

My top 5..

1. David de Gea - has saved us a LOT of points - outstanding for 95% of the time - best shot stopper around - great distribution - rest is improving quickly....

2. Antonio Valencia - simply the best at what he does. So direct, so exciting to watch, covers back brilliantly and is forming a good relationship with Rafael.

3. Wayne Rooney - top goalscorer, top footballer

4. Johnny Evans - filled a big hole really really well when asked to step in for Rio and Vidic.

5. Michael Carrick - been exellent in the main, imo. In spite of his detractors, he's been one of our best this year.

G.K. · 06-04-2012 02:57PM

Blatter wrote: »

You would hate to be keeping tabs on Garth Crooks' team of the week on the BBC website. :pac:

I go on it for a laugh sometimes, he just picks all the players that scored! I really do wonder how these people get jobs in football media.

Just look at last weeks one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17580431

And the week before...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17507702

Ah, Garth Crooks... he also had a penchant for including Evra when he has shockers, and put people like steven fletcher in midfield....

Son Of A Vidic · 06-04-2012 02:58PM

Keno 92 wrote: »

Manchester United’s five key players this season

They chose Evra not Carrick.

Here is what they wrote on Evra

The Frenchman’s standards are so high that it is unremarkable when he puts in yet another splendid performance...

-_-

I think they meant to say....

The Frenchman has been so poor defensively this season, it really is amazing that he hasn't been dropped yet.

_blank_ · 06-04-2012 02:58PM

For next season, should Scholes do a "Scholes" and not play at all until after Xmas.

Or retire completely.

Or play a "full" season?

I'd be of the opinion that he should play the early CL group games until United qualify/get knocked out, no league or carling cup games, until after Xmas.

Eathrin · 06-04-2012 03:06PM

I agree with the rest of you, that's a terrible decision to include Evra on that list.
Should be something along the lines of:
1. Valencia
2. De Gea
3. Evans
4. Rooney
5. Carrick

G.K. · 06-04-2012 03:07PM

Des wrote: »

For next season, should Scholes do a "Scholes" and not play at all until after Xmas.

Or retire completely.

Or play a "full" season?

I'd be of the opinion that he should play the early CL group games until United qualify/get knocked out, no league or carling cup games, until after Xmas.

I'd have said 'do a Scholes', but your suggestion is better imo.

Giggsy11 · 06-04-2012 03:10PM

Blatter wrote: »

I don't think there should be a question over whether Jones is ready to be our FOURTH choice centre back tbh, of course he is! Especially when you look at the fourth choice centre back of other teams.

Look at it this way, do you think we would be weak at CB going into the season with Vidic, Evans, Smalling and Jones as our CBs, especially in comparison to the centre backs at the disposal of Real Madrid or Manchester City?

What would you prefer?;

A. Vidic, Evans, Smalling, Jones

B. Kompany, Lescott, Toure, Savic

C. Ramos, Pepe, Carvalho, Varane

I really don't see the need for 5 CBs, especially with a bloated wage bill. A situation whereby 2 of our CBs will be frozen out, have their development stunted and become unhappy is far more likely to occur than all 5 getting decent game time due to another horrific injury crisis.
.

I can see where you are coming from, so given a choice what would you do? Offload Rio or Vidic?

IMO Rio wont be fit for entire season for that reason alone we can afford to keep 5 CBs. Also rumors that he is ready for pay cut. We are in very healthy situation when it comes to wage bill. Our wage to revenue ratio is around 42% which is among the best in the world. So we can afford to keep few extra players imo, also surely Berba, PIG and Owen will leave. That would keep us in even better shape.

Al Capwned · 06-04-2012 03:12PM

How's PIG getting on with Watford? Think he's certain to leave in summer, but just curious!

kryogen · 06-04-2012 03:21PM

Dunno, kept no tabs on PIG as he is gone in the summer, same reason I havent kept up to date on Morrison at WH, (has he played yet?) no longer United players!

Al Capwned · 06-04-2012 03:22PM

yeah, i'd forgotten about him till he was mentioned in Giggsy11's post above!

Mr.Crinklewood · 06-04-2012 03:35PM

Morrison has played 14 mins-

Article from today's Telegraph

By Jason Burt, Senior Football Writer
Last Updated: 5:42AM BST 06/04/2012
Ravel Morrison has played just 14 minutes of first-team football for West Ham United since signing from Manchester United on the January transfer deadline day.

That is a surprise, given that he spurned at least two Premier League clubs to drop down into the Championship in the belief it would more quickly give him a chance of first-team football.

Inevitably, there have been rumours that Morrison has missed training sessions and has had bust-ups with senior players at West Ham but none of these is true.

Instead, the claims can be ascribed to the teenager’s troubled reputation going before him — and puzzlement as to why he has not played.

The truth is Morrison has buckled down, trained hard and appears far more focused on football since he moved to West Ham.

Which makes it all the more surprising that he can count on just nine minutes of regular time — plus five minutes of added time — against Leeds United on March 17 as his one only opportunity to play.

Certainly there is a degree of frustration from some within West Ham that Morrison, given his much-vaunted talent, has not been given greater opportunity in a team that has struggled in recent weeks.

When the attacking midfielder joined West Ham they were top of the Championship, two points ahead of Southampton and nine clear of Reading.

Today, they are third, six points behind Southampton and four in arrears to Reading.

They have lost only one of the 12 games since Morrison has been at the club but have been hit hard by seven draws, matches when creative players like the 19 year-old might have made a difference.

A lack of match fitness when he arrived at West Ham kept Morrison out of the first-team squad while he picked up a slight injury 10 days ago and is only just back in training.

Yet he has only been on the bench on three occasions including the 1-1 draw at home to Doncaster Rovers when manager Sam Allardyce decided to bring on defender Danny Collins rather than Morrison or striker Nicky Maynard with 10 minutes to go and the team desperate for a winning goal.

West Ham signed Morrison for an initial £650,000 and the fee might rise to £3 million depending on appearances which is not a bad deal, albeit a slight gamble, for a player regarded as one of the most gifted Manchester United have produced in recent years and who dazzled in the 2011 FA Youth Cup final win over Sheffield United.

His problems are well chronicled — not least a magistrate’s warning that jail loomed unless he mended his ways — and while Sir Alex Ferguson gave up on him it was also generally accepted that a move away form Manchester might be the best for all parties.

Perhaps, understandably, Allardyce is protecting him and does not want to expose such a young player to pressure; maybe next season he will start to use Morrison more frequently and in the tense atmosphere that has surrounded West Ham’s promotion campaign it might have been deemed best to hold back such a precocious character away from the hurly-burly of the Championship.

But those who know Morrison also know one thing: he needs to play if his resolve to reform himself is to be maintained.

Link:- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/west-ham/9189529/West-Hams-Ravel-Morrison-eager-for-chance-to-prove-he-has-cleaned-up-his-act-since-leaving-Manchester-United.html

Mr.Crinklewood · 06-04-2012 03:37PM

1968 European cup final on now on ESPN classics. On again at 2100.

homerjay2005 · 06-04-2012 03:40PM

PIG is doing amazing at Watford! due to my polish connections, i keep tabs on him and they have turned from potential relegation candidates to outside promotion chance since he started for them.

i think he has only one defeat in the 8 loeague games he has played and they are on a great run at the moment. they beat leeds away at the weekend and are about 6 points off the play offs which is amazing considering where they were 6 weeks ago.

could be coincidental of course and other factors involved, but since PIG has come on board their fortunes have changed completely.

kryogen · 06-04-2012 03:40PM

Getting his first team opportunity then

Mars Bar · 06-04-2012 03:44PM

Scott Loach has been at Watford for quite a while as their number one so I would love to know how he feels about Tommy K coming in and taking over. Wouldn't be surprised to see him go there permanently.

MagicMarker · 06-04-2012 03:54PM

Des wrote: »

For next season, should Scholes do a "Scholes" and not play at all until after Xmas.

Or retire completely.

Or play a "full" season?

I'd be of the opinion that he should play the early CL group games until United qualify/get knocked out, no league or carling cup games, until after Xmas.

I would hope that with 1 or 2 signings and the progression of Cleverley & Pogba, both Scholes & Giggs will be spending most of their time on the bench next season.

Al Capwned · 06-04-2012 03:56PM

Mars Bar wrote: »

Scott Loach has been at Watford for quite a while as their number one so I would love to know how he feels about Tommy K coming in and taking over.

Can't imagine he'd be too happy about it.

We seem to have made a habit of loaning keepers to Watford in recent years, haven't we.

Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

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