At what age do you cull cows??

redzerologhlen · 29-03-2012 10:24PM #1

A lot of our cows are shoving on in years at the moment and ideally they should be gone already. Just wondering with a good cow how old is too old for ye, I think when they hit 10 years the good is gone out of them and we have at least ten cows around 14 :eek: Their value as culls really drops too because they become hard to finish. I remember at a farm walk at ken powers a few years ago he didnt keep any cows past 8 years. I assume the dairy lads would be culling around the same mark, what do ye think?

JohnBoy · 30-03-2012 07:13AM

I think in suckling if she's going in calf in a timely manner and producing the goods then why get rid?

cull because you dont like the calves she gives, her milk is gone, because she's slow to get in calf, or vet costs are too high, but not just because she's old.

a bigger concern would be what percentage of your herd are around 14? are you about to lose a quarter of the herd or something?

simx · 30-03-2012 08:21AM

redzerologhlen wrote: »

A lot of our cows are shoving on in years at the moment and ideally they should be gone already. Just wondering with a good cow how old is too old for ye, I think when they hit 10 years the good is gone out of them and we have at least ten cows around 14 :eek: Their value as culls really drops too because they become hard to finish. I remember at a farm walk at ken powers a few years ago he didnt keep any cows past 8 years. I assume the dairy lads would be culling around the same mark, what do ye think?

we probably cull at 7 or 8,some could go to 10 or 11 though,my uncle would be the same as yourself,nice few jpa tags and the likes

kevohmsford · 30-03-2012 09:06AM

I think as long as a suckler is producing a quality calf every year a farmer just does not want to cull it. I had to convince my dad to cull an old cow who was about 15. Better to make a decision rather than wait for the poor girl to die and possibly lose a calf as well.

pakalasa · 30-03-2012 09:12AM

I think it's a good idea to have a good range of different ages. Otherwise it could be a severe hit when all cows get old at the same time. The other side of it too though, is that some cows really show their worth if they can hang around for a long time with no bother. These are the 'middle of the road' cows that never need attention, calve early every year and produce a decent calve. These are the 'fertile' ones to breed replacements from.

Kovu · 30-03-2012 06:26PM

Agree with Pakelasa here, we try to get as many replacements out of the cows that age well and have no issues with bad feet etc. It pays in the long run as you know the dams breeding and calving difficulty, temperament etc. We kept one cow until she was 18, Old Fuzzy head as we called her. I used to twist the hair on her head (a good 3/4 inches) into horns:rolleyes:
Two of the best cows we have are out of her, one produced in her 15th year. One of them was the cow that was sectioned with the big blue bull a few weeks ago. The same cow produced a champion CH bull the year before.
It's all to do with how you feel they are, sore feet on slats is one of the big drawbacks to older cows, that and loosing condition over winter.

Figerty · 30-03-2012 07:33PM

I cull at 13 or 14 if the cow is healthy and keeps producing calves.
I have one to go shortly, she must be one of the last of the cows with the Brass tags must be hitting 15 this year. In a smaller herd it's easier to mind them.
I think i have had 9 or 10 calves from her and she was in calf to her second calf when I bought her. I have three of her daughters in the herd and I hope they will be as good as her. Not a super cow , but a middle of the road good all rounder.
I'm not sure of the ecomomics of getting rid of a ten year old cow vs older, but I can't be sure that getting rid of younger cows as a rule is a necessity for profit or breeding purposes. Each to their own I suppose.

Kovu · 30-03-2012 07:48PM

Figerty wrote: »

I cull at 13 or 14 if the cow is healthy and keeps producing calves.
I have one to go shortly, she must be one of the last of the cows with the Brass tags must be hitting 15 this year. In a smaller herd it's easier to mind them.
I think i have had 9 or 10 calves from her and she was in calf to her second calf when I bought her. I have three of her daughters in the herd and I hope they will be as good as her. Not a super cow , but a middle of the road good all rounder.
I'm not sure of the ecomomics of getting rid of a ten year old cow vs older, but I can't be sure that getting rid of younger cows as a rule is a necessity for profit or breeding purposes. Each to their own I suppose.

A brass tagged animal is older than that I think:eek:
I remember the first calf I bought, a 97 suck, she was QHBJ 003D. So has to be older than that!
EDIT- Yup, had to re count that.

dar31 · 30-03-2012 08:05PM

Karen112 wrote: »

A brass tagged animal is older than that I think:eek:
I remember the first calf I bought, a 97 suck, she was QHBJ 003D. So has to be older than that!
EDIT- Yup, had to re count that.

think brass tags were pre '96
the last of our (abcd 123e) tagged cows left the herd this week for €850, calved last oct and left straight from the parlour.
sorry for tarnishing the thread with speak of black and whites;)

1chippy · 30-03-2012 08:18PM

we have two oldies left. one went back in calf about a month back and the other calved yesterday. shes one of those cows your embaressed of. aways looks ragged, stands for every calf in the country and if you want to move them shes the one that follows the nuts. calved a super limo bull and dad even suggested keeping her for another year. i,m going to have to come up with a good story for him when she gets the hook, hes that bloody attached to her.
Startin to reckon the older they get the more they become like children, (thats parents not cows)

Kovu · 30-03-2012 08:29PM

1chippy wrote: »

Startin to reckon the older they get the more they become like children, (thats parents not cows)

Oh don't say that. I'm hoping to work a few years before he retires!:o

Farmer Pudsey · 30-03-2012 09:06PM

I tend to disagree none of you are taking the value of the cull cow into consideration. If you cull at a fairly young age 8-10 years the cull value of the cow is the same as the replacement heifer. Any suckler should have a cull policy in place and have 15-20% replacement every year.

In a 20 cow heard if you decide to breed your own you should be watching 3-4 heifer calves every year and if buying in maybe buying 4 dairy cross heifers every autaum (all will not be suitable). I see it with a few ould fella's (even oulder than me) they give a cow another year when she is young or else they have 2 or 3 outside all winter because the cannot manage on the slats and when they cull they are worth nothing. Then they have to go out and pay a fortune for a couple of incalf heifers or cows cause 'I need to keep my num,bers up'

A friend of mine run's 75 sucklers about 15 are culled every year he culls one not in calf, problem calvers, mastitis, blind quarter, too cross, poor calf. He calves them down sells the calf at 4-6 weeks then puts them to grass and finishes them they always make as much as the finished heifers he sells.

It is all about having a system in place

stanflt · 30-03-2012 09:15PM

dar31 wrote: »

think brass tags were pre '96
the last of our (abcd 123e) tagged cows left the herd this week for €850, calved last oct and left straight from the parlour.
sorry for tarnishing the thread with speak of black and whites;)

my last one 98g went in jan- 14years olds ex91 5e-still a great cow but ounldnt get her back in calf. 950euro straight from parlour-she was a diamond award cow(3000kg protein) produced numerous quaility bulls-miss her round the place

Bizzum · 30-03-2012 09:17PM

The oldest cow at home at the min is 11. She is a Limx cow by Ulysses, a real good cow. We have 2 of her daughters too.
We would cull a few cows nearly every year for a variety of reasons.
On the other end of the scale we would have the few replacements coming through each year too.
Serious money last year for cull cows, up to €1900.
Only a really good cow would make it to ten year old with us!

kay 9 · 31-03-2012 12:47AM

Hi all, just wondering what's the method to knowing the DOB on the brass tags such as CLA & CTQW. Curious as we still have a couple of them too and they are the best cows on the land. Remember when I was a kid and we sold an old red-whitehead to a dealer (cull). She was 18, had 3 sets of twins for us and never missed a year and went on to have 5 calves for him after:rolleyes: 2 sets twins included. Couldn't see the Continentals lasting that long:D

blue5000 · 31-03-2012 12:05PM

kay 9 wrote: »

Hi all, just wondering what's the method to knowing the DOB on the brass tags such as CLA & CTQW. Curious as we still have a couple of them too and they are the best cows on the land. Remember when I was a kid and we sold an old red-whitehead to a dealer (cull). She was 18, had 3 sets of twins for us and never missed a year and went on to have 5 calves for him after:rolleyes: 2 sets twins included. Couldn't see the Continentals lasting that long:D

If you bought them in you have no way of knowing, but if you had them since birth you might be able to pin them down to a year, but depends what sort of records you kept back before the herd reg was compulsory.

My last brass tag cow went to the big slatted house in the sky this year. Don't really have a cull cow policy, infertility would be the biggest offence, I seem to have most of the dodgy feet gone.

I reckon the best way to sell a cull (suckler) cow at 10-12 years old is in the mart with a calf at foot, the calf is a little carrot:) It is impossible to fatten older cows in my experience, maybe do it on ad lib meal but it wouldn't be economic every year.

Birdnuts · 31-03-2012 11:52PM

We moved on 3 in the West last year - all about 10 or 11 but where doing the business right up till the end, though one was never quiet right after a C-Section at the age of 8. I guess the issue with older cows is lenghtened recovery times from any health set-backs etc.

redzerologhlen · 01-04-2012 04:36AM

blue5000 wrote: »

If you bought them in you have no way of knowing, but if you had them since birth you might be able to pin them down to a year, but depends what sort of records you kept back before the herd reg was compulsory.

My last brass tag cow went to the big slatted house in the sky this year. Don't really have a cull cow policy, infertility would be the biggest offence, I seem to have most of the dodgy feet gone.

I reckon the best way to sell a cull (suckler) cow at 10-12 years old is in the mart with a calf at foot, the calf is a little carrot:) It is impossible to fatten older cows in my experience, maybe do it on ad lib meal but it wouldn't be economic every year.

Thats what I was getting at with the older cows being hard to fatten blue. Would it not be better to breed say 30% of you cows to maternal bulls every year and have a proper replacement system in place like a lot of the dairy men do. Most people have had good cows with great sentimental value that they kept for donkeys years but that doesnt really apply to what I was talking about. From a strictly buisness point of view would the best thing not be to breed 30% to maternal bulls every year and keep your cows younger and get a better price for culls. I find its the older cows that are the most troublesome around the place.

blue5000 · 01-04-2012 08:34AM

Ya redzer, I agree with you, but is 30% to maternal enough? Roughly half are going to be bulls, 1 or 2 won't go in calf or won't have a live calf so you could be down to a 10% replacement rate which doesn't leave much for expansion or being screwed by tb or some other disease outbreak. Most dairy lads would aim for a 20% replacement rate.

If you wanted a tight calving spread I think you'd want 40% in calf to maternal sires and 60% terminal sires. You might get away with a 10% replacement rate if you were calving autumn and spring, you could let cows slip from one group to another if they don't go in calf. But the big problem with this is that overall herd fertility would go down because sub-fertile cows are not being culled.

The ICBF records are a real eye-opener, lots of cows in my place with no calf registered for a year:o

pakalasa · 01-04-2012 10:33AM

If you're calving down cows at 3 years old and want to cull them at 8 years old, then that's only 5 calves over the lifetime of the cow. So just to maintain the numbers, that's a 20% replacement rate every year. Now, not all heifers will go in calf, speaking from experience on that one.
So you'd want to be using a maternal bull on 50% of the herd, just to maintain things the way they are, let alone expand overall numbers.

I was thinkling about this recently. What is the average guy with 20 cows and a bull going to do. He's hardly going to buy a second bull. He could use some AI. Frustrating for him when he has a bull there waiting to do the job.

So , I reckon there will be a serious demand for good replacement heifers in the future. Especially good simmentals that will bring milk and also produce good replacements themselves from the terminal sire on the farm.

I might start using a few more simmental straws myself..:rolleyes:

Kovu · 01-04-2012 10:57AM

pakalasa wrote: »

If you're calving down cows at 3 years old and want to cull them at 8 years old, then that's only 5 calves over the lifetime of the cow. So just to maintain the numbers, that's a 20% replacement rate every year. Now, not all heifers will go in calf, speaking from experience on that one.
So you'd want to be using a maternal bull on 50% of the herd, just to maintain things the way they are, let alone expand overall numbers.

I was thinkling about this recently. What is the average guy with 20 cows and a bull going to do. He's hardly going to buy a second bull. He could use some AI. Frustrating for him when he has a bull there waiting to do the job.

So , I reckon there will be a serious demand for good replacement heifers in the future. Especially good simmentals that will bring mild and also produce good replacements themselves from the terminal sire on the farm.

I might start using a few more simmental straws myself..:rolleyes:

Which is the frustrated one?:rolleyes:

redzerologhlen · 01-04-2012 12:55PM

blue5000 wrote: »

Ya redzer, I agree with you, but is 30% to maternal enough? Roughly half are going to be bulls, 1 or 2 won't go in calf or won't have a live calf so you could be down to a 10% replacement rate which doesn't leave much for expansion or being screwed by tb or some other disease outbreak. Most dairy lads would aim for a 20% replacement rate.

If you wanted a tight calving spread I think you'd want 40% in calf to maternal sires and 60% terminal sires. You might get away with a 10% replacement rate if you were calving autumn and spring, you could let cows slip from one group to another if they don't go in calf. But the big problem with this is that overall herd fertility would go down because sub-fertile cows are not being culled.

The ICBF records are a real eye-opener, lots of cows in my place with no calf registered for a year:o

A 40% replacement rate could work too. Its a lot easier to weed out the poorer performers when you have the replacements there for them because you wont be as picky. Ya icbf is some eye opener alright. I got a shock looking through the reports in herdplus when we had to join it in ag college.

pakalasa wrote: »

If you're calving down cows at 3 years old and want to cull them at 8 years old, then that's only 5 calves over the lifetime of the cow. So just to maintain the numbers, that's a 20% replacement rate every year. Now, not all heifers will go in calf, speaking from experience on that one.
So you'd want to be using a maternal bull on 50% of the herd, just to maintain things the way they are, let alone expand overall numbers.

I was thinkling about this recently. What is the average guy with 20 cows and a bull going to do. He's hardly going to buy a second bull. He could use some AI. Frustrating for him when he has a bull there waiting to do the job.

So , I reckon there will be a serious demand for good replacement heifers in the future. Especially good simmentals that will bring mild and also produce good replacements themselves from the terminal sire on the farm.

I might start using a few more simmental straws myself..:rolleyes:

Ya its a tough system for the small part time lad to work alright. I wouldnt worry about using maternal bulls. There is going to be a big market for good breeding heifers in the future I reckon because a lot of 3/4 bred continentals are seriously lacking in milk so if you had excess heifers you would have a good market. You would always have the pick of the best of them too and know their breeding. I find a lot of milky cows when the get older get very loose dugs too which makes suckling a bit awkward for the newborn calf. Another reason to cull a bit younger I reckon. Your man at the farm walk I was talking about sweared by culling young, he won weanling producer of the year too so he was fairly on top of his game.

massey390 · 01-04-2012 01:12PM

depends on condition ....if d cow is 14 youve got good value out of her , no point fattening her shes only put on fat which youd get fined in the factory , just let her off before she drops , you should have a few replacements every year . e.g , have 6 new replacements and den get rid of 6 old cows , dat way yu will have a young herd and better fertility . and if your a dairy farmer , the cow will have high scc (somatic cell count ) .

redzerologhlen · 01-04-2012 01:19PM

massey390 wrote: »

depends on condition ....if d cow is 14 youve got good value out of her , no point fattening her shes only put on fat which youd get fined in the factory , just let her off before she drops , you should have a few replacements every year . e.g , have 6 new replacements and den get rid of 6 old cows , dat way yu will have a young herd and better fertility . and if your a dairy farmer , the cow will have high scc (somatic cell count ) .

Yes but the thing is not every cow will still be good at 14. Would it not be better to have a policy and stick to it rather than saying i'll knock another year out of aul biddy beyond, sure she was always lucky...

golfhead · 01-04-2012 06:42PM

Animals born before 1/1/1996 have numbers in the format ABC123456. There is no DoB recorded for these animals as they were alive before the bovine database was operational. Therefore any of these animals alive today are at least 16 years of age.

Animals born between 1/1/1996 and 31/12/1998 have numbers in the format ABCD1234E.

All animals born since 1/1/1999 have numbers in the all numeric format.

JohnBoy · 01-04-2012 08:33PM

redzerologhlen wrote: »

Yes but the thing is not every cow will still be good at 14. Would it not be better to have a policy and stick to it rather than saying i'll knock another year out of aul biddy beyond, sure she was always lucky...

I'm all in favour of an agressive culling policy. However I dont think age should really be a factor. if the cow is delivering the goods, on time and without problems then why get rid of her?

that goes double if you're breeding your own replacements.

I suppose if you're buying in replacements then the cull value has to be balanced more against longevity, but I'd find it hard to justify getting rid of a proven cow in exchange for an unknown quantity who's only advantage is age.

At what age do you cull cows??

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