An Irish Libertarian Party

_Gawd_ · 23-03-2012 03:25PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

So who would a true Scotsman real Libertarian vote for?

Definitely not FG anyway seeing as they're no more kind to free markets or social liberty than the next establishment status quo. They are THE EUROPEAN UNION PARTY in Dail Eireann and will push through just about anything Europe asks.

oscarBravo · 23-03-2012 03:40PM

_Gawd_ wrote: »

Definitely not FG anyway seeing as they're no more kind to free markets or social liberty than the next establishment status quo. They are THE EUROPEAN UNION PARTY in Dail Eireann and will push through just about anything Europe asks.

That's pretty much a perfect non-answer to my question.

Dirk Gently · 23-03-2012 03:41PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

So who would a true Scotsman real Libertarian vote for?

Ironically I think labour seen as how the 3 main parties are pretty much in the centre economically but labour are more libertarian socially. They all have crony links, labour unions, FF developers, FG big business. Depends which cronys are good cronys in the eyes of libertarians and how serious they are about their socially liberal credentials. In fairness none of the 3 represent libertarians just as none of them represent me.

_Gawd_ · 23-03-2012 04:28PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's pretty much a perfect non-answer to my question.

There can't be an answer given because no Libertarian party exists in this country. This goes far further than a couple of social policies like marijuana decriminalisation and gay marriage for heavens sake...

The real issue would be to escape from this totalitarian/authoritarian Union, to abolish the ECB and it's harm on us, changing the monetary system, creating a real free market banking system, allowing competing currencies, rolling back the massive public sector, attacking the monopolies. Until parties are actually discussing these critical issues saying they may be for civil partnership and calling them Libertarian is tedious. The fact is they're all part of the status quo - you'll know when someone is not a part of the status quo: because the media will hound them all day and night.

Lockstep · 23-03-2012 04:35PM

_Gawd_ wrote: »

A real Libertarian would never vote for Fine Gael because to be a Libertarian one must have had to really study economics (one their own) and understand the philosophy of individual liberty. I was told FG are the "best of the bad bunch" but really, I don't see them attacking central banks, the European Union, the monetary system, allowing free markets, cutting back the public service, down on taxes (they're introducing them!). None of these things constitute libertarianism so you can forget about the socially conservative issues and stop right on the economical issues....FG are NOT capitalists. I think there is a niche to fill party wise where a group could become very successful with Irelands youth - an economically conservative, socially liberal party.

Are you saying that Fine Gael (and every other party) are for economic illiterates?
It reminds me of those fundamentalist Christians who say that every other believer is an apostate unless they've read a certain version of the Bible (and agree with the fundamentalist)

_Gawd_ · 23-03-2012 04:36PM

Lockstep wrote: »

Are you saying that Fine Gael (and every other party) are for economic illiterates?
It reminds me of those fundamentalist Christians who say that every other believer is an apostate unless they've read a certain version of the Bible (and agree with the fundamentalist)

There is nothing illiterate about Austrian economics...

In fact, judging by the booms and busts, particularly this one we happen to be in right now...I;d very such say that the current batch of "professionals" are the economic illiterates- this Keynesian tripe.

Permabear · 23-03-2012 05:48PM

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Kinski · 23-03-2012 05:54PM

Permabear wrote: »

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What if they decide to call it a trade union?

_Gawd_ wrote: »

I;d very such say that the current batch of "professionals" are the economic illiterates- this Keynesian tripe.

When are you posting from, 1972? Keynesianism stopped being the predominant set of economic theories informing Western govts years ago.

_Gawd_ · 23-03-2012 06:24PM

Kinski wrote: »

When are you posting from, 1972? Keynesianism stopped being the predominant set of economic theories informing Western govts years ago.

Your having a laugh.

_Gawd_ · 23-03-2012 06:35PM

Permabear wrote: »

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How can you vote your conscience as a libertarian by throwing down a big number one for big government? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of what you claim? I can't see a libertarian society ever coming about at the ballot box to be honest - it'll take some sort of upheaval whether market related or otherwise. The only function of government is to expand. Can you honestly tell me that Enda Kenny sits in his marvelous office that he has a goal to really implement anything remotely comparable to what a libertarian advocates?

Irish politics is toxic. It's quite ironic that the people of this country looked to the oldest serving sitting member of Dail Eireann for political reform. I don't think settling for just about anything is justified. Perhaps an Independent but not a party who's members are afraid to vote against the whip...definitely not FG.

oscarBravo · 23-03-2012 07:07PM

_Gawd_ wrote: »

How can you vote your conscience as a libertarian by throwing down a big number one for big government?

Because if you don't vote for what you perceive to be the nearest thing to a libertarian party, you're increasing the chances of what you perceive to be a less libertarian party getting into power.

This is fairly basic electoral logic, frankly.

_Gawd_ · 23-03-2012 07:36PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Because if you don't vote for what you perceive to be the nearest thing to a libertarian party, you're increasing the chances of what you perceive to be a less libertarian party getting into power.

This is fairly basic electoral logic, frankly.

Do we have to get all the way down to the Communist manifesto to agree that something is unpleasant? A shill is a shill is a shill. I certainly don't see anyone talking about open markets, monetary freedom, civil liberties...do you?

oscarBravo · 23-03-2012 07:46PM

_Gawd_ wrote: »

Do we have to get all the way down to the Communist manifesto to agree that something is unpleasant? A shill is a shill is a shill. I certainly don't see anyone talking about open markets, monetary freedom, civil liberties...do you?

I genuinely don't have a single clue what your point is.

_Gawd_ · 23-03-2012 07:52PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

I genuinely don't have a single clue what your point is.

The point is that FG would not represent Libertarians so why vote for them? I can't even believe we're having this conversation.

Permabear · 23-03-2012 07:52PM

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oscarBravo · 23-03-2012 07:57PM

_Gawd_ wrote: »

The point is that FG would not represent Libertarians so why vote for them? I can't even believe we're having this conversation.

If you don't vote for a lizard, the wrong lizard might get in.

Again: basic electoral calculus. Not rocket science. You are espousing a view that if no party perfectly represents your every desire, you shouldn't vote.

So, which is it: is there a political party with whom you have no disagreements whatsoever, or do you abstain from voting?

_Gawd_ · 23-03-2012 08:15PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

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Not on principle - I have nothing against voting but who to choose? It's not an easy one so I won't settle for FG (hence me streaking). As I said I don't realistically think it will be done at the ballot box. The best we can hope for now is the U.S.

Permabear wrote: »

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The people you speak of will never be in government so this is a complete non-issue; funny enough though, FG are quite partial to a bit of funny money too. There has to be more options, they won't do.

manicmonoliths · 23-03-2012 08:58PM

I'd consider myself one of the aforementioned Libertarian-lites.

I'm strongly in favour of increased social freedoms, less of the nanny-state that still maintains a stronghold over much of Irish society. The fact that in 2012 it takes 5 years to get a divorce is appalling to me and I hang my head in shame that minimum pricing for alcohol is being touted as a good thing. Mandatory Irish needs to be abolished along with religious practice (outside of history lessons) in public schools. Private schools can of course do what they like.

On the economic side of things, I'd be of the low tax, low spend persuasion. Less regulation and no bailouts of any description. More responsibility for businesses and individuals, if you make a bad investment decision or take out a mortgage you can't afford, then the State and taxpayers shouldn't be forced to compensate you when things turn sour.

My reservations with Libertarianism mainly involve equality of opportunity. How can we ensure that a child born to ‘poor’ parents has the same access to education and talent development as those born to rich parents? While you can argue that the current system is no better, every child no matter how poor has the opportunity to attend public school up to Leaving Cert and can receive grants to reduce the cost of university. I believe that everyone should have the opportunity to excel in whatever ‘ism’ we’re living under and I believe Libertarianism does not address the issue of the poverty trap any better than our current system does. Student loans, which can work at third-level in a properly functioning banking system, are difficult to envision funding children aged 4-5 at the start of their education.

Law enforcement is also a concern. Sadly there will always be those who abuse their freedom at the expense of others’, be this through theft, assault or murder. Society needs a police force to protect individual liberties.

For that reason I favour a limited state which provides a minimum level of services such as public education and law enforcement. Possibly some form of a health service, though this should be mostly privatised.

Another problem I have with pure-Libertarianism is issues relating to public goods and conservation matters. Who pays for streetlights and roads? I’m not convinced that environmental concerns could be appropriately handled under Libertarianism. I think there would perhaps be a tendency towards short-sightedness and a lack of planning for the future of society as a whole. The invisible hand would have us fish the oceans bare and exhaust natural resources.

I agree with previous posters who’ve said there is a gap in the market for a socially liberal, fiscally conservative party in Ireland since the demise of the PDs. While there are no ‘right-wing’ parties in the country, no Libertarian leaning individual could bring themselves to vote for the Labour’s social policies when coupled with their economic platform. FG seem to be the best of a bad bunch for liberals at the moment.

K-9 · 24-03-2012 12:23AM

Permabear wrote: »

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I think me and you know where this report will end up!

There is no Garrett in FG willing to ignore the socially conservative wing of FG, especially when the Taoiseach is part of that very wing!

In fairness Labour share some of the blame on this, at least the Greens can point to the co-habitation bill as something they achieved, I will be surprised if Labour force the issue. The Committee approach is the battle hardened, weary, politicians answer, the time to put the foot down was at the Programme for Government talks.

Lockstep · 24-03-2012 03:23AM

_Gawd_ wrote: »

There is nothing illiterate about Austrian economics...

In fact, judging by the booms and busts, particularly this one we happen to be in right now...I;d very such say that the current batch of "professionals" are the economic illiterates- this Keynesian tripe.

So your self-taught economics is superior to everyone else. Right.

TBH, I have a lot more respect for libertarians like Permabear who are at least pragmatic about voting. No party represents my views so I vote for the one that is closest. While not ideal, they're a hell of a lot better than the alternatives to me.
I know 3 hardcore libertarians, one votes Labour (socially liberal), one votes tactically (to keep 'Statists' out) and the other votes Sinn Féin (He wants Ireland to default so we'll need to bring in massive spending cuts)

24-03-2012 06:30AM

Lets take planning as an example because its been so prevalent lately with the Mahon report.

Currently we must apply through a locally centralised planning system to do almost everything.

A more "libertarian" solution would be to do something along the lines of what the US state of Texas does (bear in mind they had avoided the property bubble).They do not zone land. The land is classed as unrestricted or with restrictions. So you have a framework instead of a planning system. Cuts out government interference.

In Ireland if we implemented such a system before the bubble we may have avoided it and if we didnt at least the loans would not have been so high. This is because agricultural land during the boom was valued at 3 - 5 thousand an acre and still is. Zoned land i.e land with planning permission was going for 150,000 for half an acre in rural Wexford for example.

Would people favour this type of set up?

How about less free than that - a compromise. Such a compromise would be say you allow building under a certain sq footage, footprint & height without planning - say a 2,000 sq foot house under 2 stories height. Land becomes 3-5 thousand an acre and houses under 150,000 start to appear. More money in the economy. Happier people as they have the freedom to design their own house. Less government spending in planning departments.

We shouldnt have a planning department in every single county council in Ireland. I actually think its absurd that people who will not be living in a house get to design it or tell someone else what they should live in. If people dont like the look of a house then maybe we should solve the problem by making it a rule to stagger the driveway and plant trees and bushes to block it from view.

Valmont · 24-03-2012 10:40AM

Permabear wrote: »

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I have to say I would firmly take option (b), taking a leaf out of Frank Chodorov's approach in not wanting to encourage them or give my stamp of approval to a system which I view as--frankly speaking--fascistic. I do suppose that we can alter the rules of the game as it stands slightly in our favour by voting, but ultimately I believe that people need to withdraw support for the state and that includes not being a part of their voting game.

Although I realise that leaves me with few alternatives to express my disapproval--maybe I'll start spoiling my vote instead.

Lockstep wrote:

I know 3 hardcore libertarians, one votes Labour (socially liberal), one votes tactically (to keep 'Statists' out) and the other votes Sinn Féin (He wants Ireland to default so we'll need to bring in massive spending cuts)

How a 'hardcore' libertarian could vote for labour or Sinn Féin is really beyond me. Also, one cannot 'vote tactically' to keep the statists out when every party's implicit mantra is statism of various shades. I see their point but I would disagree.

In Ireland the political parties all support (1) a large state and (2) the morality and economics of collectivism; both of these points I would see as putting a political party in complete opposition to the libertarian tradition.

Lockstep · 24-03-2012 11:21AM

Valmont wrote: »

How a 'hardcore' libertarian could vote for labour or Sinn Féin is really beyond me. Also, one cannot 'vote tactically' to keep the statists out when every party's implicit mantra is statism of various shades. I see their point but I would disagree.

In Ireland the political parties all support (1) a large state and (2) the morality and economics of collectivism; both of these points I would see as putting a political party in complete opposition to the libertarian tradition.

Like I said, one votes Labour as they're the most socially liberal (to him) reasoning that we're messed up economically so we might as well not be messed up socially. The other likes that SF want to default as he thinks that once this happens, we'll then be forced to bring in hardcore austerity.

Permabear · 24-03-2012 01:51PM

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matthew8 · 24-03-2012 02:08PM

How much would it cost to just put yourself on the ballot?

Permabear · 24-03-2012 02:17PM

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matthew8 · 24-03-2012 02:20PM

Permabear wrote: »

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If all it takes is 30 signatories I'd just put myself down on the ballot.

Permabear · 24-03-2012 02:24PM

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_Gawd_ · 24-03-2012 03:06PM

Valmont wrote: »

I have to say I would firmly take option (b), taking a leaf out of Frank Chodorov's approach in not wanting to encourage them or give my stamp of approval to a system which I view as--frankly speaking--fascistic. I do suppose that we can alter the rules of the game as it stands slightly in our favour by voting, but ultimately I believe that people need to withdraw support for the state and that includes not being a part of their voting game.

Although I realise that leaves me with few alternatives to express my disapproval--maybe I'll start spoiling my vote instead.

How a 'hardcore' libertarian could vote for labour or Sinn Féin is really beyond me. Also, one cannot 'vote tactically' to keep the statists out when every party's implicit mantra is statism of various shades. I see their point but I would disagree.

In Ireland the political parties all support (1) a large state and (2) the morality and economics of collectivism; both of these points I would see as putting a political party in complete opposition to the libertarian tradition.

My sentiments exactly. They don't understand that by voting for just about anyone - they're ENCOURAGING IT. No Irish party celebrate liberty so why give the shills your vote. If the Libertarians on here invested half the time into actually trying to organise than they do defending FG (for christ sake) we might be able to get a runner or two.

_Gawd_ · 24-03-2012 03:11PM

Permabear wrote: »

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No need to defend FG though - ALL of the parties are hostile to liberty. Corporatism should be looked upon the same as any other form of authoritarianism. I understand you're putting it into the context of comparing them with the ULA's of this world, but with a bit of thought you can see that these are non-issues - so our focus needs to go on criticizing FG. You prop up FG around here because they're the best of the bad bunch - how about voting differently to see a total collapse? Is there an argument for that?

An Irish Libertarian Party

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