An Irish Libertarian Party

Endless Nameless · 21-03-2012 10:44PM

K-9 wrote: »

My suspicion is libertarianism makes perfect sense to people who are money driven, so the politics suits their general outlook on life.

I don't care too much for money, but I am a pretty big fan of freedom.

K-9 · 21-03-2012 11:06PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Well we all need money, some more than others! And some have no accounting for taste!

Yep, I would love to win the Lottery, don't play it though, I want Liverpool to win the League as well!

It's how you prioritise it in life, Libertarians see it as a huge priority, I'd say the be all and end all of their very existence, sure its the currency of their free market God. Most people don't want to be supported by anybody.

Endless Nameless wrote: »

I don't care too much for money, but I am a pretty big fan of freedom.

As am I and people living in social democracies or countries like Ireland are relatively free, not free as in a Libertarian society way obviously, which is a tad idyllic.

20Cent · 21-03-2012 11:33PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Maybe we just don't want to be politicians? Ever considered that?

One doesn't need to be a politician to be involved in politics or to influence society. What is the point of a political ideology if there is no attempt to influence real life? Isn't that the definition of keyboard warriors?

FreudianSlippers · 21-03-2012 11:40PM

20Cent wrote: »

One doesn't need to be a politician to be involved in politics or to influence society. What is the point of a political ideology if there is no attempt to influence real life? Isn't that the definition of keyboard warriors?

I work long and hard hours every day. I don't have time to start a political party - maybe not even enough time to get involved in one.

If that makes me a "keyboard warrior" then whatever. I can have my political opinions, voice them and vote in line with my views; which I do. I do significantly more than the majority of people I would imagine; see copyright reform issues for example.

20Cent · 21-03-2012 11:50PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I work long and hard hours every day. I don't have time to start a political party - maybe not even enough time to get involved in one.

If that makes me a "keyboard warrior" then whatever. I can have my political opinions, voice them and vote in line with my views; which I do. I do significantly more than the majority of people I would imagine; see copyright reform issues for example.

Not just you personally but what is the point of anyone calling themselves a libertarian when they are doing nothing to bring about a libertarian society?

Campaigning on issues or whatever is one thing glad you are doing it. But what I find annoying is libertarians telling us how everything is wrong a what a great idea it is when they are not doing anything to bring about this system they have so much faith in.

You'd think there would at least be a group or society or something outside of the online realm.

Channel Zero · 22-03-2012 12:06AM

20Cent wrote: »

Not just you personally but what is the point of anyone calling themselves a libertarian when they are doing nothing to bring about a libertarian society?

Campaigning on issues or whatever is one thing..

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Dirk Gently · 22-03-2012 12:12AM

20Cent wrote: »

You'd think there would at least be a group or society or something outside of the online realm.

you'd have to get two or more of them to agree on what libertarianism is first.
Seriously though, dont encourage them.

HamletOrHecuba · 22-03-2012 12:17AM

RichieC wrote: »

Once all the "libertarians" gain control of the monopoly's they'd forget about their anti monopoly stance fast enough.

In reality, Libertarianism is simply a big money ploy to destroy democracy and replace it with an oligarchy. They aren't stupid, they know the power vacuum left after government will be filled by them and their big money backers.

Thankfully they haven't a hope. There's a scar left in the human psyche from the days when the biggest money made the biggest ruler.

It isnt big money at all; big money like it or as I do loathe actually has to run societies and genuinely balance real interests in real life as opposed to dreaming that the market will sort itself. Libertarians dont factor in a whole load of social realities showing that they dont come from positions of power. Its a fantasy of upper middle class computer nerds and bitter shop keepers

HamletOrHecuba · 22-03-2012 12:20AM

Endless Nameless wrote: »

I don't care too much for money, but I am a pretty big fan of freedom.

Oh really? Will getting rid of all the restraints actually led to freedom for the majority? Could it not led to greater enslavement?

There is freedom from, and freedom to- the latter is much more important.

Soldie · 22-03-2012 12:22AM

Dirk Gently wrote: »

I was wondering if someone was going to pick up on that little gem. Certainly does make you wonder doesn't it.

Dirk Gently wrote: »

They're keeping the riot squad to maintain property rights and contracts. no need to worry.

Dirk Gently wrote: »

you'd have to get two or more of them to agree on what libertarianism is first.
Seriously though, dont encourage them.

Why don't you respond to the post I made earlier instead of scoffing from the sidelines?

southsiderosie · 22-03-2012 12:35AM

MOD NOTE:

There has been a lot of nonsense on this thread, so I want to clarify a few things before we have to start handing out infractions again.

1. The topic of this thread is the possibility of an Irish Libertarian Party. While this clearly involves some discussion of libertarian policies, if you are here to get the usual digs in without actually engaging with the topic in question, just stop posting now. The constant attempts to drag threads off topic or make not-so-subtle insinuations about other posters has been noted and we've had about enough of it.

2. Suggestions about what people do (or should be doing) away from boards are totally out of bounds, and that holds whether you are asking if someone works in the public sector or what their political activities are. If people had to be party delegates (or trained economists for that matter) to comment, we would have about six people left! People in this forum are entitled to their opinions - and their opinions are the only things that are up for discussion.

If you have any questions, PM me.

Endless Nameless · 22-03-2012 12:45AM

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Oh really? Will getting rid of all the restraints actually led to freedom for the majority? Could it not led to greater enslavement?

There is freedom from, and freedom to- the latter is much more important.

Yes, legalising various services/drugs will give the majority more freedom. Yes, lowering income tax will give the majority more freedom.

The restraints aint doing much except maintaing the current power structure, making it harder for smaller businesses to grow.

And talking of enslavery, forcing people to give their money to the government through taxation to subsidise private industries and bail out banks, with threats of imprisonment if they dont, doesnt sound all that more free than setting up the system to force private businesses to become more competitive.

Channel Zero · 22-03-2012 12:45AM

Channel Zero wrote: »

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Just to clarify what i meant by this. Many libertarian-minded people and organisations in the States choose to do their 'campaigning' via more direct means, ie seeking and gaining influence in universities, govt. circles. etc.
It wasn't a swipe or insinuation at anyone here.

K-9 · 22-03-2012 01:14AM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I work long and hard hours every day. I don't have time to start a political party - maybe not even enough time to get involved in one.

Many people face that exact same dilemna up and down the country, they make time for and sacrafice personal time and monetary gain.

Suppose it comes down to a matter of priorities.

CiaranC · 22-03-2012 01:59AM

So it looks like the Irish Libertarian Party is a non runner because the hordes of Irish Libertarians are all too busy being successful in high-level careers. Shame.

Seriously though, isnt it time for a libertarian thread to put all this garbage, its akin to "freeman" discussions in legal, full of inchoherent fringe lunacy.

EchoO · 22-03-2012 02:08AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

So that's your excuse for all but a "tiny minority" in Ireland rejecting your world view, but what about the rest of the world...(from Wiki, so comes with a health warning)

Argentina

Liberal Libertarian Party (in Spanish, Partido Liberal Libertario) have yet to contest an election

Australia

Liberal Democratic Party (classical liberalism with libertarian elements) - 2010 federal election, receiving 1.81 percent of the senate vote

Belgium

Libertarian, Direct, Democratic (libertarian with conservative liberalism elements) (former List Dedecker) - 2010 general election, the party only returned one representative to the Chamber of Representatives.

Brazil

Libertarians
It is registered as a civil association and is pursuing the support of 500.000 brazilian electors in order to obtain full party registration with the Brazilian Electoral Court

Canada

Freedom Party of Canada (Objectivism)
Have yet to contest an election
Libertarian Party of Canada
2004 election. Its eight candidates won 1,949 votes.

Czech Republic

Party of Free Citizens (libertarianism, liberal-conservative)
2010 0.74%

Denmark

Progress Party (libertarian, populism)
2001 0.6% of the vote

France

Liberal Alternative (Alternative Libérale) (classical liberalism and libertarianism)
2009 0.10% of the vote

Hong Kong

Liberal Party (libertarian in many aspects)
2008 4% of the vote

Iceland

Liberal Party (Frjálslyndi flokkurinn) (libertarianism, conservative liberalism)
2009 2% of the vote

Italy

Italian Radicals (social liberalism, liberal, libertarian left)
2009 2.4% of the vote

Japan

Liberal League Jiyu Rengo (自由連合) (classical liberal with many libertarian aspects)
Disbanded in 2005

Netherlands

Libertarian Party (Libertarische Partij)
currently not active politically.

New Zealand

Libertarianz (Neo-Objectivism)
Not sure if they ever stood for election.

Norway

Det Liberale Folkepartiet
2009 350 votes - 0,013% of the national vote

Poland

Congress of the New Right (Kongres Nowej Prawicy) - (conservative liberal, paleolibertarianism, nationalist)
Founded March last year..

Russia

Russian Libertarian Movement (Rossiyskoye Libertarianskoye Dvizhenie
Disbanded 2006.

Slovakia

Freedom and Solidarity (libertarianism, classic liberalism)
The party narrowly failed to cross the 5% threshold at the 2009 European election, but came third, winning 22 seats, at the 2010 parliamentary election. It is a part of the four-party centre-right coalition, with four cabinet positions, and Richard Sulík has been elected the Speaker of the National Council. In the 2012 elections, however, the party suffered a major setback and lost half its seats.

Spain

Individual Freedom Party (Partido de la Libertad Individual (P-Lib))
Yet to conest an election

United Kingdom

Libertarian Party UK
2009 the party had 500 members.

United States

Boston Tea Party
2008 presidential election 2,422 votes
Libertarian Party (largest libertarian-leaning party in the World)
2008 Presidential election 0.4% of the vote

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 22-03-2012 09:07AM

CiaranC wrote: »

So it looks like the Irish Libertarian Party is a non runner because the hordes of Irish Libertarians are all too busy being successful in high-level careers. Shame.

Seriously though, isnt it time for a libertarian thread to put all this garbage, its akin to "freeman" discussions in legal, full of inchoherent fringe lunacy.

what hordes are these? there's like.. ten on boards

the majority of libertarian threads on boards are started by hardcore lefties who are just mary whitehousing their way around the forums hoping to experience some good old fashioned righteous anger.

FreudianSlippers · 22-03-2012 09:25AM

K-9 wrote: »

Many people face that exact same dilemna up and down the country, they make time for and sacrafice personal time and monetary gain.

Suppose it comes down to a matter of priorities.

CiaranC wrote: »

So it looks like the Irish Libertarian Party is a non runner because the hordes of Irish Libertarians are all too busy being successful in high-level careers. Shame.

Seriously though, isnt it time for a libertarian thread to put all this garbage, its akin to "freeman" discussions in legal, full of inchoherent fringe lunacy.

Are you doubting the amount of time and dedication it takes to start a party? It's a full time job and not something you just do on a whim and on weekends.

To state otherwise is nonsense; I'm not giving up my day job to start a political party. Why? Because I don't want to - is there some problem with that?

Oh, yes: I looooooove money too much to give up my job! :rolleyes: Nah, I just don't particularly feel like being a politician.

SupaNova · 22-03-2012 09:28AM

As tackled already this fear of monopoly that would occur in a free market is quite laughable. Where are the examples of monoplies absent state monopolies? Standard Oil is the typical favorite given as an answer. Although Standard Oil gained a huge market(by offering lower and lower prices, how evil) their market share was actually in decline before it was broken up.

Back to some of the points OP made:

Smaller Government and thus lower taxes and lower government expenditure, with less emphasis on borrowing money and more emphasis on balancing the books or even a surplus.

Decriminalisation and legalisation of anything anybody wanted to do as long as it didn't hurt other people directly (ie: marajuana, heroin, prostitution, gambling, you name it), but of course with murder, assault rape etc. still illegal.

A separation of Church and State for public school, but private school can do what they like (independant of government funding).

I think its possible a majority of the Irish electorate would agree to the above. Its when you take it further is when a Libertarian Party would scare people off. I think Libertarian's time would be better spent promoting the legalization of drugs and balanced budget amendments, they would have far more ears. Maybe I'm Libertarian lite though, I would settle for a state that stayed out of peoples personal life, and doesn't destroy the country financially. Leave the state run welfare programs as long as they can afford them. I honestly think a party running along these lines could have great success, and would get the Libertarian vote.

FreudianSlippers · 22-03-2012 09:33AM

SupaNova wrote: »

As tackled already this fear of monopoly that would occur in a free market is quite laughable. Where are the examples of monoplies absent state monopolies? Standard Oil is the typical favorite given as an answer. Although Standard Oil gained a huge market(by offering lower and lower prices, how evil) their market share was actually in decline before it was broken up.

Back to some of the points OP made:

I think its possible a majority of the Irish electorate would agree to the above. Its when you take it further is when a Libertarian Party would scare people off. I think Libertarian's time would be better spent promoting the legalization of drugs and balanced budget amendments, they would have far more ears. Maybe I'm Libertarian lite though, I would settle for a state that stayed out of peoples personal life, and doesn't destroy the country financially. Leave the state run welfare programs as long as they can afford them. I honestly think a party running along these lines could have great success, and would get the Libertarian vote.

You would have to run a libertarian lite party at first no matter what. It would have to be a gradual change.

20Cent · 22-03-2012 09:35AM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Are you doubting the amount of time and dedication it takes to start a party? It's a full time job and not something you just do on a whim and on weekends.

To state otherwise is nonsense; I'm not giving up my day job to start a political party. Why? Because I don't want to - is there some problem with that?

Oh, yes: I looooooove money too much to give up my job! :rolleyes: Nah, I just don't particularly feel like being a politician.

You don't have to give up your job and start a political party in order to start a movement. Lots of other ways of doing it.
What practical use has libertarianism got in Ireland?
Its just a theory until someone tries to put it into practice.

SupaNova · 22-03-2012 09:56AM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Are you doubting the amount of time and dedication it takes to start a party? It's a full time job and not something you just do on a whim and on weekends.

To state otherwise is nonsense; I'm not giving up my day job to start a political party. Why? Because I don't want to - is there some problem with that?

Oh, yes: I looooooove money too much to give up my job! :rolleyes: Nah, I just don't particularly feel like being a politician.

Many people would be in the same position as you, and having someone leave their day job to become a politician and start a party would be very unlikely to succeed. Maybe a Libertarian party could be better formed if there were a few existing politicians fed up with their current parties and sympathetic to Libertarian views.

20Cent · 22-03-2012 10:17AM

SupaNova wrote: »

Many people would be in the same position as you, and having someone leave their day job to become a politician and start a party would be very unlikely to succeed. Maybe a Libertarian party could better formed if there were a few existing politicians fed up with their current parties and sympathetic to Libertarian views.

Surely a website or facebook page to create some awareness and find out how many people are actually interested wouldn't be too much work.

Permabear · 22-03-2012 10:41AM

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Permabear · 22-03-2012 10:53AM

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EchoO · 22-03-2012 02:52PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

How would you define "suceed"? Perhaps a right wing party might get those 3 or 4 seats, but a Libertarian Party wouldn't. Yes other countries do have Libertarian Parties, but in nearly all cases they are supported by a tiny minority of the electrate. So it would seem it's not just Ireland who is unwilling to embrace your brand of freedom.

Ellis Dee · 22-03-2012 03:00PM

Endless Nameless wrote: »

Libertarianism:

Smaller Government and thus lower taxes and lower government expenditure, with less emphasis on borrowing money and more emphasis on balancing the books or even a surplus.

Decriminalisation and legalisation of anything anybody wanted to do as long as it didn't hurt other people directly (ie: marajuana, heroin, prostitution, gambling, you name it), but of course with murder, assault rape etc. still illegal.

A separation of Church and State for public school, but private school can do what they like (independant of government funding).

And yes I'd counter it on a basis of definition: libertarians generally want smaller and limited government, and anarchists want the elimination of a formal government.
And I'm not rich.

Actually, I'd agree with all of that, but I also suppose it could only become a reality in a perfect world - which this one definitely is not.

It presupposes everyone always being eager, or at least willing, to contribute, but is there room for social solidarity? What provision would be made under a libertarian regime for those who, through no fault of their own, occasionally need the support of society to be able to maintain a life of human dignity?

Would higher education, research, museums, art galleries and the like depend entirely on private generosity, and at what price?

I ask these questions because I have spent most of my life in Nordic countries, where indispensable subsistence (i.e. a livelihood), health care, education and the other prerequisites for a life of human dignity are a constitutionally guaranteed right. And these societies work rather well, even if I wish they would be a bit more liberal about the weed.

Naturally, there is room in Ireland (and everywhere) for a libertarian party, which could certainly make valuable inputs, but transforming Ireland into a libertarian society would be a very, very long-term project indeed.

You say you are not rich, and neither am I. But I'm not especially poor, either. And that, I think, is a great strength of the Nordic social solidarity way.

Nodin · 22-03-2012 03:21PM

_Gawd_ wrote: »

It's no use.

There have been attempts to establish such a party but it's near impossible to bring it forward. Since 2010 in particular we have seen the ILP, IDP and others try to get off the ground but to do that you need money and money has to be brought into the party. When this occurs, the people that have paid bring their own collectivist policies into the programme book and so ends the libertarian party - a classic case of this were the Democrats were their new platform that was just released looks nothing like what their original platform was a few years back. But there are thousands of us out there...freedomireland have a website as well as the Irish Liberty Forum. I believe CSP have some libertarian views economically but they're very socially conservative.
.........

A party by nessecity requires co-operation and a certain degree of selflessness...good luck with that.

Endless Nameless · 22-03-2012 04:01PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm sure a Libertarian Party could perform more of a function than just fill in the vacuum the PDs left behind

Permabear · 22-03-2012 04:10PM

This post has been deleted.

An Irish Libertarian Party

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