An Irish Libertarian Party

Endless Nameless · 21-03-2012 04:09PM #1

How do you guys feel about the establishment of a libertarian party in Ireland?

With the current climate and resentment towards most parties do you think it'd get much attention?

Ellis Dee · 21-03-2012 04:13PM

Define libertarian. Where do you stand on legalising the weed, porn, the right of all children to a secular education ---

And how would you counter this criticism?

Endless Nameless · 21-03-2012 04:25PM

Libertarianism:

Smaller Government and thus lower taxes and lower government expenditure, with less emphasis on borrowing money and more emphasis on balancing the books or even a surplus.

Decriminalisation and legalisation of anything anybody wanted to do as long as it didn't hurt other people directly (ie: marajuana, heroin, prostitution, gambling, you name it), but of course with murder, assault rape etc. still illegal.

A separation of Church and State for public school, but private school can do what they like (independant of government funding).

And yes I'd counter it on a basis of definition: libertarians generally want smaller and limited government, and anarchists want the elimination of a formal government.
And I'm not rich.

Permabear · 21-03-2012 04:59PM

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BOHtox · 21-03-2012 05:01PM

Sounds like you'd like Ron Paul.

I'd be for it in theory but obviously there'd be a few policies or two that'd need to be explained

RichardAnd · 21-03-2012 05:05PM

I do love all the "isms"

karma_ · 21-03-2012 05:16PM

Permabear wrote: »

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This sums up the inherent selfishness that is endemic in libertarianism, it's not about freedom, don't pretend it is, you fool no one.

Endless Nameless · 21-03-2012 05:23PM

karma_ wrote: »

This sums up the inherent selfishness that is endemic in libertarianism, it's not about freedom, don't pretend it is, you fool no one.

...care to elaborate on that?

Gurgle · 21-03-2012 05:23PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Wow, you just don't get it.

Dirk Gently · 21-03-2012 05:34PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Or, imagine for a second that an electorate not blinded by ideology and insulated through wealth realised that society would degenerate fairly rapidly if such a party ever got a majority.

Permabear · 21-03-2012 05:39PM

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_Gawd_ · 21-03-2012 05:42PM

I'd streak down O'Connell Street in broad daylight for such an organisation to be politically active in Ireland.

We need some common sense in this country.

_Gawd_ · 21-03-2012 05:46PM

Dirk Gently · 21-03-2012 05:46PM

Permabear wrote: »

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I do realise. A lot of my posts here are critical of our electorate, of cronyism, of parish pumping and of FF. That doesn't make me a libertarian, that makes me critical of weaknesses in our republic.

How did it work out for society, I'd wager still better than your libertarian utopia. I say wager, because it is just a theory dreamed up by wealthy folks which hasn't been put into practice anywhere.

_Gawd_ · 21-03-2012 05:50PM

Dirk Gently wrote: »

I do realise. A lot of my posts here are critical of our electorate, of cronyism, of parish pumping and of FF. That doesn't make me a libertarian, that makes me critical of weaknesses in our republic.

How did it work out for society, I'd wager still better than your libertarian utopia. I say wager, because it is just a theory dreamed up by wealthy folks which hasn't been put into practice anywhere.

Dreamed up by wealthy folks?

You DO realise that the wealthy absolutely despise libertarianism, don't you????? Why would they vote for a party that would cut all ties to corporations and destroy all monopolies???

You haven't thought this through.

Endless Nameless · 21-03-2012 05:53PM

_Gawd_ wrote: »

I'd streak down O'Connell Street in broad daylight for such an organisation to be politically active in Ireland.

We need some common sense in this country.

It might be a nice project for a few people to try out during the summer or something.
Unemployment is about 12.4% at the moment, right? That's almost one in eight Irishmen, I'm sure there's a lot of that group with a lot of free time who are enthusiastic about genuinely improving their job opportunities.

If a party like that started small in socially liberal areas (like parts of Dublin where no single party has a stronghold) and tried to get at least one or two seats for the next election I think it'd be good for Irish politics in general, outside of libertarianism, for a ideologically-driven non-populist party to get their voice heard.

Dirk Gently · 21-03-2012 05:54PM

_Gawd_ wrote: »

Dreamed up by wealthy folks?

You DO realise that the wealthy absolutely despise libertarianism, don't you????? Why would they vote for a party that would cut all ties to corporations and destroy all monopolies???

You haven't thought this through.

thats the thing though, how are you going to destroy monopolies. Are you going to hit the reset button every 10 years after certain companies grow to big and eliminate the competition, or are you going to

regulate

them to safe guard competition?

FreudianSlippers · 21-03-2012 06:01PM

Since when is porn illegal?

RichieC · 21-03-2012 06:05PM

Dirk Gently wrote: »

thats the thing though, how are you going to destroy monopolies. Are you going to hit the reset button every 10 years after certain companies grow to big and eliminate the competition, or are you going to
regulate
them to safe guard competition?

Once all the "libertarians" gain control of the monopoly's they'd forget about their anti monopoly stance fast enough.

In reality, Libertarianism is simply a big money ploy to destroy democracy and replace it with an oligarchy. They aren't stupid, they know the power vacuum left after government will be filled by them and their big money backers.

Thankfully they haven't a hope. There's a scar left in the human psyche from the days when the biggest money made the biggest ruler.

Permabear · 21-03-2012 06:07PM

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_Gawd_ · 21-03-2012 06:07PM

Endless Nameless wrote: »

It might be a nice project for a few people to try out during the summer or something.
Unemployment is about 12.4% at the moment, right? That's almost one in eight Irishmen, I'm sure there's a lot of that group with a lot of free time who are enthusiastic about genuinely improving their job opportunities.

If a party like that started small in socially liberal areas (like parts of Dublin where no single party has a stronghold) and tried to get at least one or two seats for the next election I think it'd be good for Irish politics in general, outside of libertarianism, for a ideologically-driven non-populist party to get their voice heard.

It's no use.

There have been attempts to establish such a party but it's near impossible to bring it forward. Since 2010 in particular we have seen the ILP, IDP and others try to get off the ground but to do that you need money and money has to be brought into the party. When this occurs, the people that have paid bring their own collectivist policies into the programme book and so ends the libertarian party - a classic case of this were the Democrats were their new platform that was just released looks nothing like what their original platform was a few years back. But there are thousands of us out there...freedomireland have a website as well as the Irish Liberty Forum. I believe CSP have some libertarian views economically but they're very socially conservative.

I think libertarianism is a newly discovered worldview in this country so I'd suspect mostly young people describe themselves as libertarian or even know of austrian/chicago economics. Ireland in a way has no ideology per se (although no ideology can be described as an ideology?!)...all they care about is pleasing the parish community and getting re-elected. I've been to numerous political meetings over the years and in every single established party, it is quite literally zombie like follow the leader type stuff - nobody has an opinion. It's actually dangerous to have an opinion in FG for example, you just have to follow the whip and sure, what point is it to get involved if you've to shut your mouth and have no input. Your only worth to these people is to hand out drivel in fliers and canvass.

Ireland is not a libertarian country by and large - we're a reactionary island living on the periphery of a totalitarian authoritarian union that says how high when told to jump. The best we can do is support the big libertarian poster boys in the states and with a bit of luck, Ron Paul has awakened many people to continue the fight into the future.

RichieC · 21-03-2012 06:09PM

Permabear wrote: »

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They were required because investment wasn't something private money would have anything to do with.

_Gawd_ · 21-03-2012 06:12PM

Dirk Gently wrote: »

thats the thing though, how are you going to destroy monopolies. Are you going to hit the reset button every 10 years after certain companies grow to big and eliminate the competition, or are you going to
regulate
them to safe guard competition?

No, a libertarian would let them all fall and go out of business. Finally, putting the fear of God into these cretins. The government gives out monopolies to corporations and companies. If a company has a monopoly over a significant amount of time it's one of two reasons - 1) government has given it to them through legislation or 2) they're the best company out there and satisfy their consumers.

RichieC · 21-03-2012 06:16PM

_Gawd_ wrote: »

No, a libertarian would let them all fall and go out of business. Finally, putting the fear of God into these cretins. The government gives out monopolies to corporations and companies. If a company has a monopoly over a significant amount of time it's one of two reasons - 1) government has given it to them through legislation or 2) they're the best company out there and satisfy their consumers.

So without regulation, what's to stop the guy with the most money buying up all the small companies? they do that now, yes, but there is at least rules (which should be tightened)

Chuck Stone · 21-03-2012 06:18PM

Permabear wrote: »

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That would be a tea party.

RichieC · 21-03-2012 06:22PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Imagine we were all like you. We'd be ferengis. :pac:

Jimoslimos · 21-03-2012 06:23PM

Endless Nameless wrote: »

A separation of Church and State for public school, but private school can do what they like (independant of government funding)

Not quite, a typical libertarian stance would be to remove public funding for ALL schools and leave it in the hands of private companies, religious organisations, parent groups.

_Gawd_ · 21-03-2012 06:24PM

RichieC wrote: »

So without regulation, what's to stop the guy with the most money buying up all the small companies? they do that now, yes, but there is at least rules (which should be tightened)

Why should they be tightened? Can you not see how ridiculous you sound when you consider that you're willing to get involved in two businesses and say which one is not allowed to buy the other?? What planet are you living on?

In your bias you simply cannot contemplate the idea that there is no free market at work here. A company cannot just start up tomorrow. So how can these corporations be challenged? And you're worried about them buying out smaller businesses? Well, get yourself a free market and see a thousand businesses in the same industry rise in the morning.

What you're actually saying is (and it's quite illogical) that government should get involved in the market to make sure there are a catalogue f regulations. Then the big fish can really buy out the smaller one's with no future competition. How the hell does that even make sense - look, I'm on your side...I do not want to see Armageddon. I want a peaceful world with voluntary exchange - we differ as you don't see the government as the object in that road to peace.

Permabear · 21-03-2012 06:26PM

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_Gawd_ · 21-03-2012 06:27PM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Not quite, a typical libertarian stance would be to remove public funding for ALL schools and leave it in the hands of private companies, religious organisations, parent groups.

Absolutely.

Zero public service in libertarianism. Of course for a country like Ireland with a massive PS, you'd be looking at a few years transition but ultimately all government departments would be abolished.

FreudianSlippers · 21-03-2012 06:29PM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Not quite, a typical libertarian stance would be to remove public funding for ALL schools and leave it in the hands of private companies, religious organisations, parent groups.

I would disagree. Most libertarians usually favour some form of school voucher or education tax credit system. So, yes, you would have to pay for the school; however that money would still emanate from the government - thus keeping costs down and services up.

An Irish Libertarian Party

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