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Bertie, Healy-Rae and down with this sort of thing.

  • 20-03-2012 04:41AM
    #1
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭


    Mr Ahern's agreement with Mr Healy-Rae had an emphasis on roads.
    It detailed the projected spending of almost €71m on 26 Kerry roads over five years.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0318/politics.html

    How do we put an end to this carry on? Can we outlaw pork-barrel arrangements as they call it in the US, or is this acceptable part of politics.

    I'm also flabbergasted why the f&ck healy-rae wanted 71m spent on roads!

    Maybe we could prevent this by only allowing the US concept of Municipal Bonds for local infrastructure spending with the attached tax incentive.
    Municipal bonds are exempt from federal, state and local income taxes if you live in the issuing municipality. Since 1913, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) has allowed investors to withhold paying income tax on any earnings from municipal bonds. So when the interest rates for municipal bonds is higher than for Treasury bills, you'll earn significantly more especially since you won't pay taxes on those earnings.

    http://money.howstuffworks.com/personal-finance/financial-planning/municipal-bond.htm


«1

Comments

  • #2
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Mr Lowry's deal had more than a dozen pledges on health, including the development of a "surgery centre of excellence" at Nenagh Hospital.
    School buildings, care centres for the elderly and a public swimming pool in Roscrea were also among the more than 40 local priorities set out in the agreement.

    There is a new outpatient clinic in Nenagh with the different consultants visiting on different days each week so that's welcome.
    But the A and E department got downgraded and Nenagh still lost services. Where are ya Lowry? Oh he knows about it, he got heckled at the public meeting in Banba Sq.


    Noel Coonan from FG steals the credit for all work in Roscrea, that's his patch. ;) He may have been in opposition at the time but he'll still claim the credit
    They were waiting for the swimming pool for a long long time.
    But a nursing home is being closed there now so whatever deal was done it hasn't lasted

    Kerry got the better deal :cool:


  • #3
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,647 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    MadsL wrote: »
    I'm also flabbergasted why the f&ck healy-rae wanted 71m spent on roads!
    €71 million of road projects leads to a hell of a lot of plant hire but it would be cynical and incorrect to suggest that the thought even entered Jackie's head.


  • #4
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Robbo wrote: »
    €71 million of road projects leads to a hell of a lot of plant hire but it would be cynical and incorrect to suggest that the thought even entered Jackie's head.

    Ah hell, that doesn't even cover the cost of the Tralee bypass - came in at about €97m


  • #5
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Ah, those pesky Tralee traffic jams.


    Well worth the money.


  • #6
    Kinski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    Lucky us, living in such an open, transparent democracy that we get to find out about the contents of these deals five years after they were made, with the man behind them retired from politics, and the government he formed already removed from office.


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  • #7
    rasper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 796 ✭✭✭rasper


    Kinski wrote: »
    Lucky us, living in such an open, transparent democracy that we get to find out about the contents of these deals five years after they were made, with the man behind them retired from politics, and the government he formed already removed from office.

    To be fair it was common knowledge at the time and without to much fuss from the opposition , maybe not all the detail but we knew all the same.
    Of course Bertie had a good chunk of the electorate. Bribed too


  • #8
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭liammur


    The problem is, all politics is parish pump. 'We'll give this to dublin, bertie's constituency', 'we'll give that to cork, micheal's constituency'.

    It looks worse when the services are given to a rural area, particularly because the media will highlight this more.


  • #9
    EricPraline
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 486 ✭✭EricPraline


    rasper wrote: »
    To be fair it was common knowledge at the time and without to much fuss from the opposition , maybe not all the detail but we knew all the same.
    There was plenty of uproar at the the time, but the government ignored it.

    Just watching The Week in Politics now, and it's sickening. Healy Rae gleefully confirming that he got as much as he could for Kerry, in return for supporting the Finance Bill. Appalling that this gombeen had so much influence at a critical juncture in Irish politics.

    Sadly Healy Rae's request to have Pat Spillane appointed to the Irish Sports Council was not granted. But at least Healy Rae did get appointed as chairman of an Oireachtas committee giving him an extra payment of €20k a year. It's the least he deserves for serving the national interest :mad:


  • #10
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    OK now the bile is out of the way, Municipal bonds anyone? Would they remove some pork from the barrel?


  • #11
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Do it for Kerry and you are called a gombeen

    Do it for Dublin Central and you'll be hailed a hero working for a poor constituency

    Who doesn't want a Gregory deal for their area?


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  • #12
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Do it for Kerry and you are called a gombeen

    Do it for Dublin Central and you'll be hailed a hero working for a poor constituency

    Who doesn't want a Gregory deal for their area?

    So how do we stop it? Decentralise spending via the use of local bonds?


  • #13
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,355 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Do it for Kerry and you are called a gombeen

    Do it for Dublin Central and you'll be hailed a hero working for a poor constituency

    I see where you are coming from, but the Gregory deal genuinely saved lives. The part of Ireland that gained from it was beset by abject poverty. It wasn't just for roads.


  • #14
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,560 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    MadsL wrote: »
    So how do we stop it? Decentralise spending via the use of local bonds?

    I think most Irish countries are really too small for that.

    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, if Ireland were to switch to a national party list voting system (like the Dutch), this would go a long way towards tamping down parish pump politics. It would also force people to make a voting decision based on what parties actually say and do, not based on the fact that some individual fixed the road a few years ago.


  • #15
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,335 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    MadsL wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0318/politics.html

    How do we put an end to this carry on? Can we outlaw pork-barrel arrangements as they call it in the US, or is this acceptable part of politics.

    Well there are no plans by the present Government, I do believe, according to above TV programme to put in legislation that will make such schemes unacceptable or that the costs of such deals be made public. Looks like the disgusting tradition will continue for future Governments to use and abuse. Very disappointed in FG/Labour.


  • #16
    femur61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    Why has so little been made out of these relavations? Do people feel stupid that we have in concrete that Bertie bought the elections, we knew heresay but now we have it in writing or do they not care?


  • #17
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭liammur


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Do it for Kerry and you are called a gombeen

    Do it for Dublin Central and you'll be hailed a hero working for a poor constituency

    Who doesn't want a Gregory deal for their area?

    That's exactly it.

    Sadly, if it weren't for the likes of HealyRae, Kerry probably wouldn't get a penny. This is where the system is wrong.


  • #18
    sunshinediver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 170 ✭✭sunshinediver


    liammur wrote: »
    That's exactly it.

    Sadly, if it weren't for the likes of HealyRae, Kerry probably wouldn't get a penny. This is where the system is wrong.
    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Do it for Kerry and you are called a gombeen

    Do it for Dublin Central and you'll be hailed a hero working for a poor constituency

    Who doesn't want a Gregory deal for their area?

    While both fought solely for their own constituents there is a significant difference.

    Tony Gregory worked, fought and campaigned for his constituency who were typically some of the poorest people you could meet. He achieved what he did for his constituency by highlighting their plight on a national stage.

    Jackie Healy Rae got his deal by effectively holding the government to ransom by threatening to vote against it knowing that they needed his support. His voting pact with the government helped ensure the passing of the finance bill, austerity measures and the bail out of anglo irish bank. There is no comparison to Tony Gregory.


  • #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    sunshinediver wrote: »
    While both fought solely for their own constituents there is a significant difference.

    Tony Gregory worked, fought and campaigned for his constituency who were typically some of the poorest people you could meet. He achieved what he did for his constituency by highlighting their plight on a national stage.

    Jackie Healy Rae got his deal by effectively holding the government to ransom by threatening to vote against it knowing that they needed his support. His voting pact with the government helped ensure the passing of the finance bill, austerity measures and the bail out of anglo irish bank. There is no comparison to Tony Gregory.

    Of course there is a comparison.

    Back in 1982 Ireland was in as bad if not worse a state as it was in 2007 and Gregory held the Govt to ransom.

    I really don't know how much people on this board know about rural Ireland but the reality is that there are a lot of very poor and disadvantaged people in Kerry and outside the cities generally, it's not just an inner city thing.


  • #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    liammur wrote: »
    That's exactly it.

    Sadly, if it weren't for the likes of HealyRae, Kerry probably wouldn't get a penny. This is where the system is wrong.

    Totally agree

    I am no fan of the Healy Raes and will never give them a vote but it's a problem when you need these sort of deals to get a bypass of a big town like Tralee.


  • #21
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    it's a problem when you need these sort of deals to get a bypass of a big town like Tralee.

    1. Tralee isn't a 'big town'
    2. The need for a 91 million euro bypass is debatable it caters for what, 3000-4000 vehicles average per day now.
    3. The Municipal bonds I'm suggesting would allow locals to decide where spending is targeted.

    Municipal or Regional bonds could be set up to allow locals to 'vote' on which projects they want funded - say on a matching euro for ten euro basis or all the way down to a euro for euro basis. Locals would then be able to fund those projects using a tax relief as payback for the investment over 5-10 years.

    The saying springs to mind of "put your money where your mouth is". This prevents vested interests from pork-barrelling infrastructure spending.

    To take an example of the Tralee bypass, at a 10:1 ratio 9,000 individuals would need to invest €1000 and would then receive say €1200 in tax credit over 6-7 years tax returns.

    This allows for local campaigning, but TDs cannot influence Centralised spending as the local 10% or whatever percentage needs to be raised first.

    I think this could have huge impact in reducing the 'Healy-Rae' effect.


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  • #22
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭liammur


    MadsL wrote: »
    1. Tralee isn't a 'big town'
    2. The need for a 91 million euro bypass is debatable it caters for what, 3000-4000 vehicles average per day now.
    3. The Municipal bonds I'm suggesting would allow locals to decide where spending is targeted.

    Municipal or Regional bonds could be set up to allow locals to 'vote' on which projects they want funded - say on a matching euro for ten euro basis or all the way down to a euro for euro basis. Locals would then be able to fund those projects using a tax relief as payback for the investment over 5-10 years.

    The saying springs to mind of "put your money where your mouth is". This prevents vested interests from pork-barrelling infrastructure spending.

    To take an example of the Tralee bypass, at a 10:1 ratio 9,000 individuals would need to invest €1000 and would then receive say €1200 in tax credit over 6-7 years tax returns.

    This allows for local campaigning, but TDs cannot influence Centralised spending as the local 10% or whatever percentage needs to be raised first.

    I think this could have huge impact in reducing the 'Healy-Rae' effect.

    Bonds? Who the hell would invest in those bonds. Parish pump politics is everywhere. As the saying all politics is local.

    I'm not from Kerry, but upgrading roads there and other rural places is vital, people die on **** roads, not on dual carriageways.


  • #23
    sheesh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭sheesh


    MadsL wrote: »
    1. Tralee isn't a 'big town'
    2. The need for a 91 million euro bypass is debatable it caters for what, 3000-4000 vehicles average per day now.
    3. The Municipal bonds I'm suggesting would allow locals to decide where spending is targeted.

    Municipal or Regional bonds could be set up to allow locals to 'vote' on which projects they want funded - say on a matching euro for ten euro basis or all the way down to a euro for euro basis. Locals would then be able to fund those projects using a tax relief as payback for the investment over 5-10 years.

    The saying springs to mind of "put your money where your mouth is". This prevents vested interests from pork-barrelling infrastructure spending.

    To take an example of the Tralee bypass, at a 10:1 ratio 9,000 individuals would need to invest €1000 and would then receive say €1200 in tax credit over 6-7 years tax returns.

    This allows for local campaigning, but TDs cannot influence Centralised spending as the local 10% or whatever percentage needs to be raised first.

    I think this could have huge impact in reducing the 'Healy-Rae' effect.
    Just a quick reaction but in terms of Ireland Tralee is considered a big town population of 21,000 does not include some estates close to the designated Urban area.

    3000-4000 vehicles /day can you give a source for that? I would imagine it is more pleae do not pluck numbers out of the air.


  • #24
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    sheesh wrote:
    3000-4000 vehicles /day can you give a source for that? I would imagine it is more pleae do not pluck numbers out of the air.

    I didn't.

    NRA boom-time 2008 estimates were peak of 9,000 vehicles a day. Given the economy drop 3-4k a day is more likely. http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/ProjectAppraisal/file,14161,en.pdf

    Some crazy figures have been thrown around like 19k a day, but the traffic counts are here for the N22

    http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N22-1.htm

    Absolute traffic Peak is August Bank Holiday where it touches 9k. Average day's rush-hour seems to be approx 400 vehicles p/h.
    liammur wrote:
    I'm not from Kerry, but upgrading roads there and other rural places is vital, people die on **** roads, not on dual carriageways.

    Actually I though Speed was the major cause according to the NRA.

    Suicide is a higher killer of young people than road accidents, I'm sure Pieta House would love 90 million euro to set up more counselling centres. Asthma, Diabetes and Accidental Poisoning all rank as higher killers than road accidents.
    http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deathsfromprincipalcausesintheyears1998to2006/

    Unlikely that the Healy-Rae's will campaign on those issues. But save someone 5 minutes on a rural commute = God Level Unlocked.
    liammur wrote:
    Bonds? Who the hell would invest in those bonds.

    Show me where you can get a guaranteed 20% overall yield at the moment as I proposed there. But in real life these bonds offer as little as 3.5% over thirty years source but you get a tax-break as a resident investing in them so reduce your tax bill each year.

    The question is more like why the hell wouldn't you if it offered a better return than the savings account at the bank and meant that the Healy-Rae's got their fingers out of the pie.

    Just to check, you do know what bonds are?


  • #25
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    This might help.

    In a nutshell, Cities, Counties or Towns could issue trade-able bonds to raise funds for capital expenditure. residents get a tax break on them - other investors get guaranteed yields.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obfEDpUviGQ


  • #26
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭liammur


    MadsL wrote: »
    I didn't.

    NRA boom-time 2008 estimates were peak of 9,000 vehicles a day. Given the economy drop 3-4k a day is more likely. http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/ProjectAppraisal/file,14161,en.pdf

    Some crazy figures have been thrown around like 19k a day, but the traffic counts are here for the N22

    http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N22-1.htm

    Absolute traffic Peak is August Bank Holiday where it touches 9k. Average day's rush-hour seems to be approx 400 vehicles p/h.



    Actually I though Speed was the major cause according to the NRA.

    Suicide is a higher killer of young people than road accidents, I'm sure Pieta House would love 90 million euro to set up more counselling centres. Asthma, Diabetes and Accidental Poisoning all rank as higher killers than road accidents.
    http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deathsfromprincipalcausesintheyears1998to2006/

    Unlikely that the Healy-Rae's will campaign on those issues. But save someone 5 minutes on a rural commute = God Level Unlocked.



    Show me where you can get a guaranteed 20% overall yield at the moment as I proposed there. But in real life these bonds offer as little as 3.5% over thirty years source but you get a tax-break as a resident investing in them so reduce your tax bill each year.

    The question is more like why the hell wouldn't you if it offered a better return than the savings account at the bank and meant that the Healy-Rae's got their fingers out of the pie.

    Just to check, you do know what bonds are?

    The NRA aren't going to come out and say 'the roads we are responsible for' are death traps.
    There is a stretch of road in Limerick on the N21 where numerous people have been killed, NRA have admitted it's poor, yet no major upgrade. This is simply wrong. If a politician get's it upgraded due to 'parish pump' politics, i would congratulate him.


  • #27
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,717 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    sunshinediver wrote: »
    While both fought solely for their own constituents there is a significant difference.

    Tony Gregory worked, fought and campaigned for his constituency who were typically some of the poorest people you could meet. He achieved what he did for his constituency by highlighting their plight on a national stage.

    Jackie Healy Rae got his deal by effectively holding the government to ransom by threatening to vote against it knowing that they needed his support. His voting pact with the government helped ensure the passing of the finance bill, austerity measures and the bail out of anglo irish bank. There is no comparison to Tony Gregory.

    Revisionism is alive and well.

    What rubbish, both men sold their vote to keep FF in power, one sold his vote to the crook known as CJH, the other to the man who won money on the horses or so we are told, Bertie, both did it by holding the government to ransom.

    If you are to say one was worse than the other, you could say it was Gregory because he was the first to sell his soul to the devil. Healy-Rae followed a well-worn path that had been carved out by Gregory. The cheapening of Irish politics began with CJH (does anyone remember the free toothbrushes?), was endorsed by the likes of Gregory that supported him and ended up with the likes of Ahern, McCreevy and Cowen who went around handing goodies out to everyone in town.

    Another thing people forget is that had Haughey been unable to do the deal with Gregory, he would have been gone a lot quicker from Irish politics and a lot of crooks like Burke and Lawlor would have gone with him.

    Finally, Gregory was the ultimate hypocrite. After getting into bed with CJH, he spent the next 20 years pretending that FF were too horrible to do business with.


  • #28
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,717 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    liammur wrote: »
    Bonds? Who the hell would invest in those bonds. Parish pump politics is everywhere. As the saying all politics is local.

    I'm not from Kerry, but upgrading roads there and other rural places is vital, people die on **** roads, not on dual carriageways.


    Yes, let's build a dual-carraigeway to Clifden, Valencia, Gougane Barra and through every boreen in Donegal. Should be able to save about 20 lives a year.

    To pay for it, we can close two or three hospitals, losing hundreds of lives a year.

    It is a very simplistic short-sighted argument to say that rural areas should have dual-carraigeways to save lives when the money could be much better spent elsewhere.


  • #29
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    liammur wrote: »
    The NRA aren't going to come out and say 'the roads we are responsible for' are death traps.

    Good point. Except they do. The RSA publish the statistics.
    http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Our-Research/Ireland-Road-Collisions/

    There is a stretch of road in Limerick on the N21 where numerous people have been killed, NRA have admitted it's poor, yet no major upgrade. This is simply wrong. If a politician get's it upgraded due to 'parish pump' politics, i would congratulate him.

    And from that map I can see a massive total of two fatal accidents between 2005 and 2009 - I believe there were two more 2010 and 2011.

    Now if I as a politician go waving my arms about the "numerous" people and I have a leverage with Govt, then I get my €100 million for 'my' project and I'm a local hero. I play on the perception that throwing money at roads "saves lives" Is it needed? Debatable.

    In fact as an aside spending money on Hospital IT systems would probably be the single most effective way to eliminate medical error which is quite probably the biggest cause of avoidable death in the country. But shhhh no-one wants to talk about that. Upgrade the roads run the facebook campaigns!!!

    With a bond system however at least we get some kind of consensus about which projects should take priority - and keep grubby fingers out of it.


  • #30
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭liammur


    MadsL wrote: »
    Good point. Except they do. The RSA publish the statistics.
    http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Our-Research/Ireland-Road-Collisions/




    And from that map I can see a massive total of two fatal accidents between 2005 and 2009 - I believe there were two more 2010 and 2011.

    Now if I as a politician go waving my arms about the "numerous" people and I have a leverage with Govt, then I get my €100 million for 'my' project and I'm a local hero. I play on the perception that throwing money at roads "saves lives" Is it needed? Debatable.

    In fact as an aside spending money on Hospital IT systems would probably be the single most effective way to eliminate medical error which is quite probably the biggest cause of avoidable death in the country. But shhhh no-one wants to talk about that. Upgrade the roads run the facebook campaigns!!!

    With a bond system however at least we get some kind of consensus about which projects should take priority - and keep grubby fingers out of it.

    I don't know what planet you are on. Is 5 lives in 1 year not enough for you ?

    http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/deadly-stretch-of-n21-work-to-begin-on-limerick-road-project-this-month-1-3600112

    'WORK is expected to begin on a multi-million euro new road between Newcastle West and Barnagh by the end of March, it has been confirmed.

    The construction of a road to replace the deadly stretch of the N21 between Barnagh and Garryduff, which claimed the lives of five people in 2010, is finally set to begin following a lengthy grass roots campaign by local residents.'


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  • #31
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    liammur wrote: »
    I don't know what planet you are on. Is 5 lives in 1 year not enough for you ?

    http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/deadly-stretch-of-n21-work-to-begin-on-limerick-road-project-this-month-1-3600112

    'WORK is expected to begin on a multi-million euro new road between Newcastle West and Barnagh by the end of March, it has been confirmed.

    The construction of a road to replace the deadly stretch of the N21 between Barnagh and Garryduff, which claimed the lives of five people in 2010, is finally set to begin following a lengthy grass roots campaign by local residents.'


    I think you just made my point.

    "Is 5 lives in 1 year not enough for you ?"

    Compared to what? How many lives over a ten year period? How many lost through other causes crying out for funding?

    This project cost is running €5m and yet at the same time staff at Limerick Hospital are saying they seriously under pressure and the hospital is "unsafe".
    In a statement the nurses’ union said that in the hospital this morning there were 34 patients on trolleys in the emergency department (three of whom were children), 12 admitted patients on beds in the medical assessment unit, 11 patients on beds in the surgical day ward, 25 on beds in ward 1B where closed beds had re-opened with skeleton staff and 14 patients on extra beds/trolleys around wards.

    The union said staff at the hospital could not deliver safe care to such volumes of additional patients without extra personnel.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0207/breaking33.html

    Not to mention the lack of A&E funding for Limerick. http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=14888

    Now just because it is not a head-on collision do you really think that people are not dying as a result of underfunded healthcare. How many in Limerick would you think? More than 5 last year?

    Yet, as always, it is the noisy 'deadly' road campaigns by local interests screaming about 'lethal roads' that get the funding through TD parish pump politics. This has to stop.


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