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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #5882
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    alastair wrote: »
    Solution - sell and rent. Is that not a choice? Or just pay your property tax like everyone around the world does?


    anyone who thinks that landlords will generously take the hit of a property tax and not pass it on to renters is fooling themselves. selling and renting is not a solution.


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    #5883
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    All the more unfair then, to be taxed on it when you dont sell it.

    :rolleyes:

    I can't keep up with the contortions at play.


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    #5884
    demanufactured
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    alastair wrote: »
    Solution - sell and rent. Is that not a choice? Or just pay your property tax like everyone around the world does?

    Careful there.. Its not a property tax.


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    #5885
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    I guess we'll just gloss over the fact that CGT is red herring for most?
    So - to be pedantic - positive equity (what we're talking about) is wealth. Sausages are a tasty treat, negative sausages not so much.

    The various car taxes are not unfair - and nor is property tax. Just saying its unfair isn't really a compelling argument.
    I didnt say the car taxes were unfair, i said having car taxes is hardly an arguement for introduicing another, unfair tax. As in another tax, and an unfair one.

    What we were talking about was your claim that houses are targeted because of equity, and equity = wealth.

    When i asked about negative equity, you clam they are a minority, and will soon be positive equity. Thats not a wealthy position. But they are still liable. That completely ends your claim right there.

    The fact is, they want every citizen in the country to contribute. And home owners are one of the easiest targets to hit hard. Nothing to do with equity. Nothing to do with using the house.


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    #5886
    skintiam
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭skintiam


    alastair wrote: »
    Solution - sell and rent. Is that not a choice? Or just pay your property tax like everyone around the world does?

    Not really a choice no, houses aren't selling too easily these days.


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    #5887
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    demanufactured wrote: »
    Careful there.. Its not a property tax.

    It's obviously a property tax.


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    #5888
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Try living in the North. NI have rates(like property tax) which the No side would be horrified of. http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/rates http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...310672338.html
    Originally Posted by Irish Times
    Properties in the Holyland are now valued at about £140,000 (€168,000) based on a revaluation programme carried out in 2005 – close to the height of the housing boom. So most rates bill are about £940 (€1,127) per annum.

    A grand p.a. for a €168k house, free here(ROI!)! Plus you pay water rates in Britain, citizens here have been having a free ride for too long.


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    #5889
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    I didnt say the car taxes were unfair, i said having car taxes is hardly an arguement for introduicing another, unfair tax. As in another tax, and an unfair one.

    What we were talking about was your claim that houses are targeted because of equity, and equity = wealth.

    When i asked about negative equity, you clam they are a minority, and will soon be positive equity. Thats not a wealthy position. But they are still liable. That completely ends your claim right there.

    The fact is, they want every citizen in the country to contribute. And home owners are one of the easiest targets to hit hard. Nothing to do with equity. Nothing to do with using the house.

    You're done with the CGT thing then?

    Again - equity is wealth. It's a valid source for taxation.

    We don't know what exemptions and waivers will apply in the tiered system. The ability of those in negative equity to pay the registration €100 doesn't really ring any bells for me - it's cheaper than a TV licence.


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    #5890
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    I can't keep up with the contortions at play.

    Perhaps some lighter reading would be more suitable, if boards is too taxing.


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    #5891
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Perhaps some lighter reading would be more suitable, if boards is too taxing.

    Maybe if your backpedalling wasn't so erratic. It's dizzying how quickly you can ditch the misinformation and move on to fresh pastures.

    Just so we're clear:

    1. Equity is indeed wealth.
    2. CGT only applies to a tiny minority of homeowners.
    3. Property tax is no more 'unfair' than any other tax.


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    #5892
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    In exactly the same way you 'penalise' the car owner, wage earner, etc, etc. it's a tax.

    I have a car in the garden, cost me nothing in tax since december, why? No tax on owning a car.

    Wages are a tax on profit.

    I assume you would accept any new taxation measures without question.


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    #5893
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    I have a car in the garden, cost me nothing in tax since december, why? No tax on owning a car.

    Wages are a tax on profit.

    I assume you would accept any new taxation measures without question.

    Have fun driving the car around the garden.

    Unlike you, I'm happy to pay my way in this society, and I'm well able to apply critical analysis as to what's just or not. A property tax is a sensible module in a sustainable revenue scenario. That's why its a model commonly applied worldwide.


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    #5894
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    I have a car in the garden, cost me nothing in tax since december, why? No tax on owning a car.

    .


    You can probably avoid the household charge in much the same way as you have done with your car, by rendering the house legally 'uninhabitable'.
    In practice this would generally involve removing the roof and cutting off the services.

    Good luck.


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    #5895
    monkeypants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭monkeypants


    gurramok wrote: »
    Try living in the North. NI have rates(like property tax) which the No side would be horrified of. http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/rates http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...310672338.html


    A grand p.a. for a €168k house, free here(ROI!)! Plus you pay water rates in Britain, citizens here have been having a free ride for too long.
    Lower rate of income tax and national insurance too, plus no USC and working health and education systems. Move my job across the border or to England and I'm gone.


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    #5896
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    Maybe if your backpedalling wasn't so erratic. It's dizzying how quickly you can ditch the misinformation and move on to fresh pastures.
    Just so we're clear:
    1. Equity is indeed wealth.
    No, as it can be negative, again, look up the definition of equity. It has been linked enough times for you.
    And negative equity homes are not exempt. So that equity arguement is void.
    2. CGT only applies to a tiny minority of homeowners.
    This part i was looking at wrong, but very few will have it anyway, as there are no capital gains for many now, that are paying mortgages, as they are likely reletively recent buyers.

    Also, i said i had that wrong. I doubt you ever get much wrong though:)
    And not a hope would you admit. Never.
    3. Property tax is no more 'unfair' than any other tax.
    So then, introduce new unfair taxes, because we already have existing unfair ones.


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    #5897
    skintiam
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭skintiam


    black francis wrote: »
    Well, you must be in a fairly small minority given the 10's of thousands that people willingly handed over to the govt in stamp duty when they bought - were you one of these people I wonder?

    First time buyer.


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    #5898
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    You're done with the CGT thing then?

    Again - equity is wealth. It's a valid source for taxation.

    Equity = market value - mortgage outstanding.

    You assume it is a positive number.

    If the owner is 50 euro in positive equity, they will pay the tax on the property.

    If the owner is 10k in negative, they will pay the charge.

    How is that a valid taxation item?


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    #5899
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    monkeypants wrote: »
    Lower rate of income tax and national insurance too, plus no USC and working health and education systems. Move my job across the border or to England and I'm gone.

    Here's the actual income tax differences - including USC, levies etc:
    http://www.kearon.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/IRL-UK-tax-comparison-2012-rates.pdf

    So add on UK rates and water charges and see how that works out.


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    #5900
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    monkeypants wrote: »
    Lower rate of income tax and national insurance too, plus no USC and working health and education systems. Move my job across the border or to England and I'm gone.

    Lower wages in the UK for a lot of jobs. Its not all one way traffic as you put it.


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    #5901
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    And you could become the face of the arrogant, uncaring F.G. party. The one we all know well, "we are in power and you will do as we tell you and be happy with what we allow you to have".
    Afraid not though.


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    #5902
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Equity = market value - mortgage outstanding.

    You assume it is a positive number.

    If the owner is 50 euro in positive equity, they will pay the tax on the property.

    If the owner is 10k in negative, they will pay the charge.

    How is that a valid taxation item?

    I think most people would assume that wealth is derived from positive equity, and not the absense of said equity? But yes. Yes I do.

    What's the equity in your car (once you bother to tax it again)? You feel it shouldn't be a taxable asset because it's worth less than you paid for it?

    Again - we don't know what waivers will apply when the actual, tiered rates come into play. It may well be the case that those in negative equity will be exempt. Again - most people in negative equity will not remain in negative equity for ever, and the vast majority of home owners are currently not in negative equity.


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    #5903
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    And you could become the face of the arrogant, uncaring F.G. party. The one we all know well, "we are in power and you will do as we tell you and be happy with what we allow you to have".
    Afraid not though.

    You'd be doing yourself a big favour if you got over this sort of ****e.

    I, for one, have never voted for FG. I didn't vote for the last lot either. Some of us just don't share your position - learn to accept the fact.


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    #5904
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    gurramok wrote: »
    Lower wages in the UK for a lot of jobs.

    Including their government.


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    #5905
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    alastair wrote: »
    Again - we don't know what waivers will apply when the actual, tiered rates come into play. It may well be the case that those in negative equity will be exempt. Again - most people in negative equity will not remain in negative equity for ever, and the vast majority of home owners are currently not in negative equity.

    This is my reason for not paying so far. Why can't they do that now? I said it already, i have no problem paying relative to my property (of which i am also in negative equity, but not as much as others), i have no problem paying for water (as long as it's drinkable and not full of lime, destroying my taps/showers/kettles), etc, etc. But, as it stands, the government want me to willingly sign up to a charge which they are free to increase year on year without any actual plan. They say it will eventually lead to a tiered rate, but when?

    If they said to me that i pay €100 this year, €100 next year, and then it will be based on property value every eyar after that, i would pay it. But what's stopping them from increasing it to €2000 next year? They probably won't, but they could, and i'm not willingly signing up to something that doesn't give me a definitive amount of what i'm going to end up paying.


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    #5906
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    mikom wrote: »
    Including their government.

    True and for many workers alike. From the table, alot of our workforce who pay less tax than their UK equivalents can well afford to pay 100quid plus water charges when they come. http://www.kearon.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/IRL-UK-tax-comparison-2012-rates.pdf


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    #5907
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Potential-Monke wrote: »

    If they said to me that i pay €100 this year, €100 next year, and then it will be based on property value every eyar after that, i would pay it. But what's stopping them from increasing it to €2000 next year?

    Nothing.
    They will treat this like a tap they can turn on every time they wish to fund some bloated government body rather than cut the excesses.


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    #5908
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    This is my reason for not paying so far. Why can't they do that now? I said it already, i have no problem paying relative to my property (of which i am also in negative equity, but not as much as others), i have no problem paying for water (as long as it's drinkable and not full of lime, destroying my taps/showers/kettles), etc, etc. But, as it stands, the government want me to willingly sign up to a charge which they are free to increase year on year without any actual plan. They say it will eventually lead to a tiered rate, but when?

    If they said to me that i pay €100 this year, €100 next year, and then it will be based on property value every eyar after that, i would pay it. But what's stopping them from increasing it to €2000 next year? They probably won't, but they could, and i'm not willingly signing up to something that doesn't give me a definitive amount of what i'm going to end up paying.

    You don't know what any tax rates will be down the line. This one is no different in that regard. And tbh - you don't get to pick and choose which other taxes you like, so why believe you can with this one? You say you're in favour of the water tax - but we don't know what that's going to cost us either.

    If you don't like it - vote for the crowd that promise to get rid of it when they get into power.


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    #5909
    darkmaster2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭darkmaster2


    Did anyone else hear the FG/government shill with Tom Dunne on Newstalk ringing up from 'Lismore' ? telling us we all have to pay this charge. hahahahaha They are really getting desperate now..


    Oh, and answer to the OP's question. NO NO NO


    Thanks


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    #5910
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    darkmaster2 wrote: »
    Did anyone else hear the FG/government shill with Tom Dunne on Newstalk ringing up from 'Lismore' ? telling us we all have to pay this charge. hahahahaha They are really getting desperate now..

    Thing is - we do.

    Don't register - pay later.


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    #5911
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    Have fun driving the car around the garden
    I thought you were saying there is a tax for owning a car, my mistake.
    Unlike you, I'm happy to pay my way in this society
    Your assumption. If you dont pay this tax, you didnt pay your way.
    and I'm well able to apply critical analysis as to what's just or not.
    Its still an opinion.
    A property tax is a sensible module in a sustainable revenue scenario. That's why its a model commonly applied worldwide.

    So its not a positive equity tax, its a tax based on other countries also having it.


This discussion has been closed.
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