Let's talk about Sudden Adult Death Syndrome aka SADS

Mollikins · 18-03-2012 05:51PM #1

I would post this in the Soccer forum but I don’t have access and After Hours gets a lot more traffic anyway. Besides, this condition doesn’t just affect sportspeople, it just appears to be more prominent in them as it is through exercise and activity that the heart is made work hard and problems come to light.

What happened to Fabrice Muamba yesterday was horrific and nobody wants to see it happen again so I just want to throw out a few links that might help people understand it better and also enable them to do their bit, if they wish. SADS or Sudden Adult Death Syndrome has affected my family (A 15 year old family member died in his sleep) so I try my best to educate others about it. Since Cormac McAnallen died, a lot of work has been done to get defibrillators in public places, GAA clubs and schools and also to teach people about CPR but there is lots you can do to help without having to go run a marathon or trek up a mountain to raise money.

http://www.fones4life.ie/runs a great initiative. Just 250 old mobiles can get you a defibrillator and 360 mobiles will get you either a heated outdoor cabinet for the AED or training for 6 people on how to use it, provided by the Irish Heart Foundation. Just click on the ‘How it works’ tab for more information. Everyone has a few old mobiles littered around the house. Just collecting them up and throwing them in a box in your workplace, local community hall or your child’s school can make such a difference. A few primary schools in my area all have AEDs now because of this excellent initiative.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/living-to-tell-a-tale-of-luck-and-quick-thinking-2474242.html This is an article from December 2010 about a young man called Seaghan Kearney who collapsed while playing 5 a side soccer and how being in the right place at the right time saved him. He is doing a lot of work with The Mater Foundation trying to raise awareness. There was an article in one of the Sunday papers a few weeks ago about him. I can’t find it online but I do remember from it that the guy who saved him is going to be his best man at his wedding this summer. There is also a video of him talking about that day and even footage from the halls camera on the website set up by Cormac McAnallen’s family. http://www.thecormactrust.com/saved-from-sudden-cardiac-death/ That website has loads of information too and also a tab with profiles and pictures of all the young people SADS has taken. It’s very sad to read all the stories but seeing how it has affected other families might just make a difference.

http://www.cry.ie/ Cardiac Risk in the Young is another website which aims to raise awareness and to fundraise for defibrillators. They also provide support to families that have lost someone due to SADS.

I briefly mentioned The Mater Foundation already but it really deserves more attention. My entire family has attended the Heart House and undergone various tests with the Family Screening Clinic. All of the tests you need to have done are completed on the same day so there is no waiting for appointments for different tests and repeat visits.

It’s worth mentioning that some heart conditions don’t show up on ECGs. This was the case for another relative of mine who now has a pacemaker fitted, so it is very important if there is a history of sudden cardiac death in the family that you get tested properly. Just ask your GP for a referral to the Heart House. The service is free, they get no funding from the government at all at the moment and it runs entirely on donations. They run a Heart Appeal every February, selling heart pins for just €2. There is more information on http://www.sads.ie/index.html and http://www.materfoundation.ie/heart-appeal.html

A simple Google search will reveal loads of companies that do CPR and AED courses. With most companies, if you can get your place of work to send a group of people or if you can get a group together yourself you will get a discount. Even if you can’t afford to do a First Aid course you probably know someone who has done one or someone who works in the medical field. Ask them what you should do. It will only take a few minutes but can make all the difference in the world. For every minute after collapse without CPR or defibrillation the chance of survival decreases by 7 to 10 per cent per minute. If a stranger or a loved one collapses, the last thing you want is to end up just standing there, powerless and unable to help.

It’s Paddy’s Day weekend and everyone is out having a drink. You’re entitled to enjoy yourself because you work hard for your money but please consider donating even a small amount of the money you would spend on alcohol to a service such as that provided by the Heart House. You never know when you might need them yourself.

If anyone has any more information please feel free to post below.

Thanks for reading.

WesternNight · 18-03-2012 06:15PM

I know someone who lost a son to SADS (mind you, he wasn't quite an adult at 15). He collapsed on a football pitch in front of his friends.

It's terrifying to hear about those stories, because it seems like it's one of those things where nothing can be done if it happens. But then when you see how quickly someone like Fabrice Muamba was treated, it becomes obvious what could, and probably would, have happened had equipment and people trained to use it not been there right away. Hopefully it will have made all the difference in his case, and hopefully it will start a dialogue (like this) among employers/educators/everyone else about what they can do.

Bubblefett · 18-03-2012 06:32PM

I've a friend who lost her mother to this, she passed in her sleep- early 50s with no medical problems.
It's awful and I'm so glad people are becoming more aware of it. I for one, had never heard of it until it effected someone I knew

Fran1985 · 18-03-2012 07:19PM

This proves with the right training, it can be fought

Paramedic volunteering in the bar upstairs saved this guy's life.

learn how to use a defib

Little bit more detail here http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/living-to-tell-a-tale-of-luck-and-quick-thinking-2474242.html

LH Pathe · 18-03-2012 07:25PM

Alright so.. I thought it was Seasonal Affective Disorder n thought yep; muamba has had a long one

/he's still critical isn't he. I guess by stable they meant not on the immediate verge of death? as he probably should have been, those medics did a great job. hope the kid pulls through of course

groundhurling · 18-03-2012 07:46PM

If you won't do a course, at least don't be afraid to try to revive somebody. You can't do any more harm and Muamba's case proves that time is the big factor. Check this out and see how easy it is: http://www.citizencpr.ie/

AEDs these days are foolproof, if you did something wrong (put the pads on a patient with a pulse etc), it simply won't shock. There are pictures and voice prompts to guide you through it.

What happened yesterday just proves that fast CPR and defibrillation can and often does save lives.

Naomi00 · 18-03-2012 08:49PM

groundhurling wrote: »

If you won't do a course, at least don't be afraid to try to revive somebody. You can't do any more harm and Muamba's case proves that time is the big factor. Check this out and see how easy it is: http://www.citizencpr.ie/

AEDs these days are foolproof, if you did something wrong (put the pads on a patient with a pulse etc), it simply won't shock. There are pictures and voice prompts to guide you through it.

What happened yesterday just proves that fast CPR and defibrillation can and often does save lives.

It's still a risk using a defibrillator though, you can only shock the person 3 times max.

18-03-2012 09:55PM

Can you really call it Sudden Adult Death Syndrome if the person survives ..?

kapow · 18-03-2012 10:04PM

Naomi00 wrote: »

It's still a risk using a defibrillator though, you can only shock the person 3 times max.

That is simply not true. People have come back after more than 5 shocks. You continue alternating CPR with AED indefinitely until help arrives. Everyone should really google how to do CPR if you don't know, so simple to do and could make a huge difference.

First Aid Ireland · 18-03-2012 11:48PM

I think it's important to put SADS into perspective. It's an uncommon condition. The most important reason for being able to use a defibrillator is to deal with the "routine" causes of cardiac arrest in the community.

Defibs are one of the most important developments in emergency medicine in recent years. but not just because of SADS/congenital arrythmias. It's because people go into cardiac arrest all the time because of much more common problems like heart attacks.

Defibs should be widespread, there's no doubt about it. they're so easy to use too.

Mr.Crinklewood · 18-03-2012 11:57PM

Intended posting something similar.

Would anyone on here be in for taking some proactive action?

Few ideas, some may be ****e, some may be good, some may save a life.

- nowadays a lot of clubs / firms will have a defriblibator (sp?), map these out on Goggle Maps( contact details etc). . I know people will not to to a laptop in the event of a heart problem, but at least it may give one person the prior knowledge of the nearest defriblibator to them.

- some bright spark can create an app do we can have this info close to hand.

- these defribs, would it cost much to throw a gps thingy on them so people would know where their nearest one was.

I know thes things cost money, but surely some company would throw their logo on the google maps page or the app.

If people know of a defriblibator near them I'll get the ball rolling and start mapping them out tomorrow.

Mollikins · 19-03-2012 04:03AM

I have changed the thread title to avoid any further confusion with Seasonal Affective Disorder. I should also point out that the acronym SADS is more commonly denoted as Sudden Adult Death Syndrome but in more recent times I have heard/read it being referred to as Sudden Arrhythmic Death Syndrome which takes into account children who die due to an undetected heart condition.

Naomi00 wrote: »

It's still a risk using a defibrillator though, you can only shock the person 3 times max.

I don’t know where you’ve heard that but afaik that isn’t true. I have no idea how many shocks an AED can hold enough charge for, but as far as I’m aware there is no limit as to how many times a person can be shocked. Maybe someone working in the medical field can shed some light on this matter. As Groundhurling said already, the machine will analyse the casualties heart rhythm and will only deliver a shock if the casualty needs it. So there is no way someone who has a viable pulse can be shocked. The only real risk involved in using a defibrillator is in making sure no one is in contact with the casualty as you are about to press the button to deliver the shock. Every single defibrillator in this country is under lock and key and those with access to it are well versed on making sure the area is clear when treating someone so as not to end up with 2 casualties.

Domo230 wrote: »

Is there a test to see if you are at risk?

This link from the Mater website explains the tests fairly well: http://www.materfoundation.ie/what-happens.html. As mentioned in my previous post, sometimes heart conditions don’t show up on ECGs. Some conditions, unfortunately, are only diagnosed when the person has died through testing of the heart tissue and testing of immediate family members. Genetic testing is also being used more nowadays, especially for Long QT Syndrome and Brugada Syndrome. (More info regarding the types of conditions included in SADS here: http://www.materfoundation.ie/causes-of-sads.html. Unless there is cause for in-depth testing, such as family history or a person displaying worrying symptoms such as fainting spells or palpitations then it’s unlikely you will undergo anything more than an ECG. If you’re worried about your own health or a loved one’s health your best bet is to go to your GP first where you will be referred onwards.

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you really call it Sudden Adult Death Syndrome if the person survives ..?

I don’t think you can but then again Seaghan Kearney has described himself in the above video as a survivor of SADS so perhaps you can. However if Muamba had collapsed at home I doubt he would have received the appropriate care so quickly and if he had passed away (please God he won’t) it would have probably been classed as Sudden Adult Death Syndrome as, to our knowledge, he hasn’t experienced any heart problems prior to Saturday. It sounds awful since millions of people saw it unfold on TV, but it probably happened to him in the best place possible. If it had happened anywhere else it’s unlikely a defibrillator or medics trained in CPR would have been nearby and able to attend to him so quickly and every second counts in a situation like that. The chances of survival decrease by 7-10% for every minute that passes after a person collapses when there is no CPR or defibrillation. So yes I mentioned Fabrice Muamba and Sudden Adult Death Syndrome in the same post simply because what happened him has reminded an awful lot of people about the condition. I really hope that none of this applies to him and that he makes a full recovery. He is only 23, got engaged just last month and has a 3 year old son. His whole life should be ahead of him and I really hope the next bit of news I hear about him is good news.

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

I think it's important to put SADS into perspective. It's an uncommon condition. The most important reason for being able to use a defibrillator is to deal with the "routine" causes of cardiac arrest in the community.

Defibs are one of the most important developments in emergency medicine in recent years. but not just because of SADS/congenital arrythmias. It's because people go into cardiac arrest all the time because of much more common problems like heart attacks.

Defibs should be widespread, there's no doubt about it. they're so easy to use too.

I posted about people learning CPR and AEDs being more readily available because SADS has affected my family. Of course cardiac arrest occurs in many more routine situations than people dying from SADS but honestly, people are more likely to care about young, seemingly fit and healthy people just dropping dead than an elderly person suffering a heart attack. I hope that doesn’t sound callous because I don’t intend it to be, but young people with no health problems suddenly dying is a more emotive topic than a more routine situation like a heart attack and people are more likely to try to obtain an AED for their area for this reason.

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Intended posting something similar.

Would anyone on here be in for taking some proactive action?

Few ideas, some may be ****e, some may be good, some may save a life.

- nowadays a lot of clubs / firms will have a defriblibator (sp?), map these out on Goggle Maps( contact details etc). . I know people will not to to a laptop in the event of a heart problem, but at least it may give one person the prior knowledge of the nearest defriblibator to them.

- some bright spark can create an app do we can have this info close to hand.

- these defribs, would it cost much to throw a gps thingy on them so people would know where their nearest one was.

I know thes things cost money, but surely some company would throw their logo on the google maps page or the app.

If people know of a defriblibator near them I'll get the ball rolling and start mapping them out tomorrow.

That’s a great idea. I’m not sure of the logistics of it all but fair play to ya for thinking of it and making the effort.

_________________________________________

I can understand people not wanting to jump in and give a stranger CPR but there is also hands only CPR as demonstrated below by Vinnie Jones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILxjxfB4zNk

The reasoning behind it all is that people may not administer the rescue breaths properly (such as not tilting the head back enough or checking that the airway is free) and that interrupting the chest compressions to do so would result in a more negative outcome than if you were to continuously administer chest compressions as there is still oxygen remaining in the blood and lungs. There is more information in the FAQs in this link: http://handsonlycpr.org/faqs

triggermortis · 19-03-2012 04:15AM

I only heard about this condition recently when I found out that two of my school mates have passed away from this before the age of 40.

EdenHazard · 19-03-2012 04:23AM

bubblefett wrote: »

I've a friend who lost her mother to this, she passed in her sleep- early 50s with no medical problems.
It's awful and I'm so glad people are becoming more aware of it. I for one, had never heard of it until it effected someone I knew

My biggest fear.

sillymoo · 19-03-2012 03:46PM

CPR needs to be in the school ciruculum in this country.

syklops · 19-03-2012 04:32PM

<Unpopular post of the day>

First off, I am very sorry for all the people who have lost people suddenly. I have lost 2 people recently suddenly, but I have a problem with the name SADS, or Sudden adult death syndrome. It is far too vague a name to be considered a syndrome and therefore IMO, a waste of time and money trying to prevent.

By all means everyone should get CPR and first aid training, absolutely. However I think people second guessing themselves with such vague information is dangerous.

Naomi00 · 19-03-2012 07:37PM

Mollikins wrote: »

I don’t know where you’ve heard that but afaik that isn’t true. I have no idea how many shocks an AED can hold enough charge for, but as far as I’m aware there is no limit as to how many times a person can be shocked. Maybe someone working in the medical field can shed some light on this matter. As Groundhurling said already, the machine will analyse the casualties heart rhythm and will only deliver a shock if the casualty needs it. So there is no way someone who has a viable pulse can be shocked. The only real risk involved in using a defibrillator is in making sure no one is in contact with the casualty as you are about to press the button to deliver the shock. Every single defibrillator in this country is under lock and key and those with access to it are well versed on making sure the area is clear when treating someone so as not to end up with 2 casualties.

On the tv show Bondi Rescue (reliable source I know

) they were shocking a man who was technically dead (he wasn't breathing for nearly 10 mins if I can remember) and they had shocked him twice and said the third was the last attempt they could do as any more would kill the person anyway.

I've heard them say it a good few times on that tv show and other places though. Maybe it's not true, and I guess if it's a life or death situation you might as well keep shocking them if there's a chance it'll work. Is there anyone here that knows whether it's true or not?

cocoshovel · 19-03-2012 08:09PM

During my cardiac responder course I was never told how many shocks is too much, just to continue with the process of CPR and AED until advanced care arrives.

On a slightly related note, I noticed sky news ( I know :rolleyes:) had a headline up yesterday saying "2 hour battle to restart football players heart".
I might be wrong, but isnt that technically impossible? 2 hours without a heartbeat and being brought back.

Thepredator · 19-03-2012 08:23PM

You can definitely give more than three shocks, responders spend up to twenty minutes on scene and the defib will analyse after each cycle of cpr, which takes two minutes. I remember hearing that the max shocks you could give was twelve although im not sure if that's still the case.

Kiera · 19-03-2012 08:27PM

cocoshovel wrote: »

During my cardiac responder course I was never told how many shocks is too much, just to continue with the process of CPR and AED until advanced care arrives.

On a slightly related note, I noticed sky news ( I know :rolleyes:) had a headline up yesterday saying "2 hour battle to restart football players heart".
I might be wrong, but isnt that technically impossible? 2 hours without a heartbeat and being brought back.

He's breathing on his own now and apparently recognises family and friends.

sdanseo · 19-03-2012 08:28PM

cocoshovel wrote: »

During my cardiac responder course I was never told how many shocks is too much, just to continue with the process of CPR and AED until advanced care arrives.

On a slightly related note, I noticed sky news ( I know :rolleyes:) had a headline up yesterday saying "2 hour battle to restart football players heart".
I might be wrong, but isnt that technically impossible? 2 hours without a heartbeat and being brought back.

In theory, not impossible if CPR was being administered during all of that time.

Naomi00 · 19-03-2012 08:34PM

This was one episode where I saw them say the 3 shock thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICODRFoWZkw

Around 3:40 min. They say that people 'rarely survive more than 3 shocks'

Again, they could have gotten it wrong, but this is just one place I heard that.

cocoshovel · 19-03-2012 08:36PM

sdeire wrote: »

In theory, not impossible if CPR was being administered during all of that time.

Makes sense, and of course they had him on more advanced drugs and things, like that machine that pumps the chest and stuff. Guess I never really thought of it.

First Aid Ireland · 20-03-2012 06:39AM

No one knows what happened or how long it took them to restart the heart. Just because they were working on him for a long time doesn't mean his heart was stopped all that time. plus he was probably very well oxygenated through most of it if he was tubed and/or receiving high flow oxygen. Sounds like they induced a coma afterwards for therapeutic hypothermia.

You can shock people lots of times. there comes a point where you give up because it's not going to work. But you don't give up because it might be dangerous. I mean, they're dead as things stand. You can't make it much worse :P The "don't shock more than three times" thing comes from days of yore when we used to only shock three times in very quick succession, then we'd give a cycle of CPR before starting the shocks again. That's all changed now.

It's unlikely he was shocked continuously for 2 hours, though.

syklops · 20-03-2012 07:32AM

This page demonstrates my point exactly.

EarlERizer · 20-03-2012 07:55AM

cocoshovel wrote: »

On a slightly related note, I noticed sky news ( I know :rolleyes:) had a headline up yesterday saying "2 hour battle to restart football players heart".
I might be wrong, but isnt that technically impossible? 2 hours without a heartbeat and being brought back.

Good aul Sky news flash banners.

It took a time frame of 2 hours (from the time of his collapse )to get the heart beating on its own.They continued to preform 'heart massage' from the initial treatment on the field,in transit to the hospital,at the hospital until they got the heart beating unaided.

Definitley agree with earlier poster in that CPR & general first aid should be mandatory learning in secondry schools.

Credit to anyone who gives their time to 'work' as voluntary first aid/paramedics at sports events,gigs etc without that kind of immediate intervention an occurance like Saturday's may well have had a tragic outcome.

Great thread by the way!

EarlERizer · 20-03-2012 08:22AM

syklops wrote: »

<Unpopular post of the day>

First off, I am very sorry for all the people who have lost people suddenly. I have lost 2 people recently suddenly, but I have a problem with the name SADS, or Sudden adult death syndrome. It is far too vague a name to be considered a syndrome and therefore IMO, a waste of time and money trying to prevent.

By all means everyone should get CPR and first aid training, absolutely. However I think people second guessing themselves with such vague information is dangerous.

The correct term is Sudden Arrhythmic Death Syndrome.
Sudden been the instant nature of the event,Arrhythmic been without rhythm or regularity,Death been an event of ceasation and Syndrome been a symptom occurance that is characteristic of a particular abnormality - in this case a defective heart.

Nothing vague about that surely? we know alot more today than they did say 10 years ago when another footballer (Marc Vivien Foe) succumbed to the same condition,there are others of note too.It is never a waste of money,time or effort trying to prevent sudden death in this kind of circumstance,but that's just IMO.

syklops wrote: »

This page demonstrates my point exactly.

That's a bit cynical to say the least,this thread is just a discussion,noone here claims/claimed to be an expert in anything related,if all this thread does is raise awareness of this type of thing then it's a worthwhile thread.

syklops · 20-03-2012 09:00AM

EarlERizer wrote: »

Nothing vague about that surely? we know alot more today than they did say 10 years ago when another footballer (Marc Vivien Foe) succumbed to the same condition,there are others of note too.It is never a waste of money,time or effort trying to prevent sudden death in this kind of circumstance,but that's just IMO.

Its vague in that while you used the correct term, most people including the OP call it Sudden adult death syndrome. The result of this is the sudden death of any adult, gets automatically attributed to this syndrome making it seem much more common than it is.

This page demonstrates my point exactly.

That's a bit cynical to say the least,this thread is just a discussion,noone here claims/claimed to be an expert in anything related,if all this thread does is raise awareness of this type of thing then it's a worthwhile thread.

Well forgive me, but I have 2 friends who died recently and it was not due to heart rhythm, meanwhile I have 2 members of my family who did develop heart rhythm poroblems but lived to tell the tale. Additionally if someone had said, "feck it, they're going to die anyway because its sudden adult death synfrome" and used the defib on them they probably would have died as a result.

I'm all for education and awareness, but I just want people to use the correct terminology. As for whether there should be more, easy access to defibrillators, absolutely, yes, but there should also be training available for when to use them and when not to use them.

Sorry if I sounded cynical, but in the opening post and in the title, the incorrect term was used, and it used 2 people as examples of why its so bad, who did not die. Also a few posts down was some incorrect information about defibrillator use gleaned from a TV program.

seamus · 20-03-2012 10:13AM

syklops wrote: »

Its vague in that while you used the correct term, most people including the OP call it Sudden adult death syndrome. The result of this is the sudden death of any adult, gets automatically attributed to this syndrome making it seem much more common than it is.

It's quite easy in modern times for people to become a little blasé about this kind of stuff.
There's a general perception that we are so advanced in medicine that we have most diseases nailed down, and when someone dies we will be able to say what they died of and describe how such a death can be prevented. Which is not the case. In general people tend to think that a young person either dies due to an accident or a serious illness. In both cases they can be spotted and prevented (or fought against).

This is not the case either, and I think coming up with a catch-all word is useful because it lets people know that sometimes otherwise perfectly healthy people do just collapse and die.

In exactly the same way that SIDS is used I suppose. SIDS is effectively a infant's death from unknown causes, but despite that, risk factors have still been found and identified and it's possible to educate people on how to minimise their risk of SIDS, even if the actual mechanism behind it is unknown.

Likewise if people know about SADS and the availability of defibs, it can help save someone's life.

I'm not entirely sure about the rarity of it tbh. Although no-one I know has ever died from it, I can say the same for cancer. Likewise, the number of "friends of friends" I know who've died of sudden cardiac death would be roughly the same as cancer deaths I've heard of.
Maybe it's a case that SADS is so sudden that it tends to be more devastating and therefore you hear about it more often, but it doesn't seem to be insanely rare, just quite unlikely.

if someone had said, "feck it, they're going to die anyway because its sudden adult death synfrome" and used the defib on them they probably would have died as a result.

As mentioned above though, the AED won't work unless it is required. It's a trade-off in the design that allows it to be applied by practically anyone without any training with minimal chance of it being used when it's not required.
If someone had used an AED on your family members, it likely would not have delivered any shock.

thepieman12345 · 20-03-2012 10:32AM

As far as i know, there used to be a limit on how many shocks an AED could deliver, im Pretty sure in ireland it used to be 5 and in some other regions it was 3, now ive been told there are no more limits to how many are allowed, youre only limited by battery charge ( around 5 shocks i think) there are AEDs that can be plugged in also. And if anyone wants to do a CFR or first aid course but is strapped for cash, joining a voluntary organisation may be a good idea, whether its civil defence, order of malta, St johns ambulance brigade or the irish red cross, they all do them and most of the time free for members

Thepredator · 20-03-2012 10:17PM

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0303/1224312717912.html

Discussed on prime time tonight. Surely the best option is to give people the choice of having their samples or childrens samples destroyed instead of a default policy of destroying them all.

Let's talk about Sudden Adult Death Syndrome aka SADS

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