[News]Government not to seek a further derogation from EU rules on rail market access

n97 mini · 15-03-2012 09:52AM

I wouldn't be pro-privatisation as such... I'd be anti-monopoly, anti-state run, and anti-trade union. Those three, in my opinion, especially when put together, deliver a far from optimal solution.

British Rail, the question is simple. Do the railways deliver better bang for the buck now that it did when it was run by a state-owned unionised monopoly? I don't know about subsidies, but in terms of ticket costs and service levels it leaves BR times in the shade.

dowlingm · 15-03-2012 11:13AM

There is no necessity to decide that we must have it IE's way or the privatised British way which itself has undergone major chance since the early days of Railtrack and the first franchisees.

starhillroad · 15-03-2012 11:30AM

dowlingm
There is no necessity to decide that we must have it IE's way or the privatised British way which itself has undergone major chance since the early days of Railtrack and the first franchisees.

(a) Maybe I was mmisunderstood by etchyed because I did go into considerable detail on the idea. What upset me about his reply, was the cherrypicking of sections, and then the mass dismissal of it all as a bad idea.

(b) It is crucial that the network remains state owned. That there is a clear and cohesive plan on improvements, set out, and defined over specific time periods. This means that the infrastructure provider need to fulfil their side of the bargain.

(c) The parties involved in procuring contracts are Local authorities, Central Government, local groups such Save the Rosslare to Waterford Railway.

(d) Iarnrod Eireann is split into three or four parts. CIE is abolished except to manage pensions and the funds of the workforce prior to (date X in future). . Iarnrod Eireann becomes Traein Eireann, the passenger operator, TERI - The Freight operator, and Iarnrod, the infrastructure holding company.

(e) All rolling stock falls into a rolling stock owning/leasing corporation.

The above are initially state owned, and after that sold on a bidding process. There will be a minimum reserve, to ensure the state gets the best deal. The asset stripping that occurred in New Zealand for example and Argentina must not be repeated. The railways are an asset to the nation, their services should enhance the nation, and the machinations of dodgy dealings that occurred before must be prevented. I do understand and acknowledge etchyed concerns on that regard. It was a likely flaw that I did not explain myself clearly enough.

Sincerely

starhillroad

dublinman1990 · 15-03-2012 09:28PM

How long in your opinion, starhillroad, does the 3 or 4 new companies you mention take to implement? IMO, There is a huge amount of work for Irish Rail management and the government to do now the possible work that you envisage for the future. CIE have a huge job in splitting up the finances and other assets of each company; that is including as you mentioned of course the pensions and wages of each employee in the new companies.

There is the question, however, of which EU committee this proposal has been presented to?

I know for the freight sector in particular had a bid from UK Transport Logistics company, Eddie Stobart some months ago as a possible competitor to run a portion of it in the near future.

What is the current story with that at the moment?

starhillroad · 15-03-2012 11:43PM

How long in your opinion, starhillroad, does the 3 or 4 new companies you mention take to implement?

I have no idea. Iarnrod Eireann and the Department of Transport and Finance pay people a lot of money to manage transitions of this nature.

At a guess....minimum two years to get it off the ground. Railfreight could be dealt with faster. Don't forget its not a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

etchyed · 16-03-2012 03:44PM

starhillroad, I suspect that we actually agree on more than we disagree on. I'm not completely anti-privatisation. I just hope that when it does inevitably happen it will be done carefully, in a manner that puts customers and the government purse before private sector interests. It's clear to me from your following posts that you're not as unthinking as I unfairly accused you of being. However I think it's very it's important not to get caught up in an Anything But CIÉ mindset that blinds you to potential problems with other approaches.

What I suspect we'll continue to disagree on is the notion that UK rail privatisation is a good model to follow or even to mention in deciding how best to proceed.

Hungerford · 16-03-2012 04:44PM

etchyed wrote: »

3. Are you remotely aware that anytime CIE closed a railway, it prevented a private operator from opening it up as an alternative.

I don't know what you're talking about, do please explain.

What he means is that Iarnrod Eireann effectively ensures that the line is left in no fit state for anyone to take it over within a substantial investment. When a line is shut by the company, it is generally disconnected from the system and does not receive any maintenance work so that the permanent way and the physical structures (signals, buildings etc.) degrade to such an extent that they are unusable.

The Foynes line, for example, last saw traffic in 2001. After a decade of neglect, the cost of bringing the line back into service is estimated at over €10 million.

The cost of maintaining the line to a basic level wouldn't have been as high but it would have meant that it would have been available relatively easily to competitors once the market was opened up.

dowlingm · 16-03-2012 08:05PM

It was all going reasonably well, if you could swallow it from a party who was just in power and did nowt, until the last few lines.

Greens welcome proposed opening up of rail network to new freight operators
http://www.greenparty.ie/news.html?n=48

Neither should these changes be used as an excuse by Government to avoid vital investment in the national rail infrastructure, such as the completion of the Western Rail Corridor and Meath rail line.

EDIT: the spokesman - http://www.adamdouglasgreen.com/, twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/Adamdougl/

starhillroad · 16-03-2012 09:10PM

I've to deal with the aftermath of the Cheltenham races and a post race session, and I will discuss Iarnrod Eireann when I am sober.

I just hope proposed solutions are not ugly.

icdg · 18-03-2012 11:01PM

starhillroad wrote: »

dowlingm
[The asset stripping that occurred in New Zealand for example and Argentina must not be repeated.

The New Zealand Government has just spent a lot of money putting New Zealand Railways (or KiwiRail as it now likes to be known) back together after less than two decades of privatistion.

I suspect the model chosen for Ireland will be more along the lines of the Italian model where FS has separate tracks (RFI) and trains (Trenitalia) subsidiaries but still part of the same group. In the Irish context one model might be to establish the two companies as separate subsidiaries of CIE. I'd be surprised if separation goes any further than that, keeping the train operations and infrastructure manager under the one holding company seems as common (Italy, Germany, Belgium) as full separation (GB, Portugal, Spain. France has cheated and leased back the infrastructure to SNCF...). In reality there won't be a queue to run passenger services - there are only three open-access operators in GB and the vast, vast, majority of services are franchised - in other words, the former British Rail services.

[News]Government not to seek a further derogation from EU rules on rail market access

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