Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Welcome to the Real World

2»

Comments

  • #32
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    tricky D wrote: »
    Not correct. There are plenty of civilisations which have crashed due to resource depletion: Mayans, Easter Island, Mesopotamia to name a few.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/mar/01/lessons-history-collapsed-civilisations

    Anyway I would worry about nature's backlash using germ warfare on our activities more than anything else.

    Localized events are not the same as global events. You could argue that the Irish Civilization collapsed over one hundred years ago, when what really happened was we moved, changed our language and religion and generally either became British or American.

    Have you watched the video yet?


  • #33
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Atomicjuicer wrote: »
    Couldn't disagree more with your last post Festus.

    We are running out of food resources. There are mass extinctions of necessary parts of the food chain every day. If we lose bees for example well probably face an extinction challenge.

    The desire to preserve the species is more functional than personal desire. Currenty we are stretching the limits of the eco-system. We need a reduction to survive - an all out end to reproduction is of course equally foolish.

    You are free to disagree but consider http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328543.600-the-future-is-bright-for-humanity.html

    Then please present your evidence of mass extinctions of necessary parts of the food chain.

    If true then is the end not nigh?


  • #34
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    As they are akin to closed systems they are analogous. I haven't and won't bother watching the video as the arguments are too selective and narrow in scope otherwise they wouldn't (and don't) merely support the agenda.


  • #35
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/migration/migration.htm

    Some interesting stuff from the UN there. I particularly like the suggestion of raising the retirement age to 75... that's sure to go down well. On the other hand talk about having kids and stay at home parents and you'll get marginalised and scoffed at, particularly if you are a woman.


    Keeping retirement and health-care systems for older persons solvent in the face of declining and ageing populations, for example, constitutes
    a new situation that poses serious challenges for Governments and civil society.

    Indeed it does. Then why are vast numbers of goverments in the developed world barely touching on the issue at best or ignoring the issue at worst and leaving it to the likes of the RCC to bring up?

    Some other related topics..

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/world/europe/21iht-LETTER.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html?pagewanted=all


  • #36
    Atomicjuicer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭Atomicjuicer


    Festus wrote: »
    You are free to disagree but consider http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328543.600-the-future-is-bright-for-humanity.html

    Then please present your evidence of mass extinctions of necessary parts of the food chain.

    If true then is the end not nigh?

    I like that newscientist article - I take a cautionary view of the future - not pessimistic, and tentatively optimistic provided we are sensible.

    I believe the damage done to the food chain and eco-system is reversible or fixable but we need to give these systems an opportunity. Further squandering of damaged systems would not be (in my own personal view) wise.

    Hopefully I'm wrong - but better safe than sorry no?

    I believe humanity will survive, but we must take protective action.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    tricky D wrote: »
    As they are akin to closed systems they are analogous. I haven't and won't bother watching the video as the arguments are too selective and narrow in scope otherwise they wouldn't (and don't) merely support the agenda.

    How do you know the arguments are selective and narrow in scope without watching the video?


  • #38
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    It's a bog standard confirmation bias modus operandi.


  • #39
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    Festus wrote: »

    You are also forgetting that there is no resource shortage. Very very few elements leave the planet forever and those that do have a negligible impact.

    I'm sure there are some people in Africa who would disagree.
    Take a look at the list of countries by birth rate
    The ones at the top are hardly economic miracles.


  • #40
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    I'm sure there are some people in Africa who would disagree.
    Take a look at the list of countries by birth rate
    The ones at the top are hardly economic miracles.

    Aren't you forgetting something?

    What is the death rate and what is the projected death rate due to aids in the case of children born with it?

    Have you watched the video yet?


  • #41
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    Festus wrote: »
    Aren't you forgetting something?

    What is the death rate and what is the projected death rate due to aids in the case of children born with it?

    Have you watched the video yet?

    Nope I'm not forgetting it. The death rate is similarly high and a direct result of the high birth rate and inability of the resources to cope with that birth rate. If African countries were to lower their birthrate, they would be able to grow and prosper. Instead we have a terrible situation where couples have large families, most of which have terrible standards of living and just barely survive.
    As for the spread of aids, that's as a result of the big birth rate which you are advocating, and the lack of artificial birth control which you blame for depopulation.

    You can't deny that we live in a world of finite resources and you're basing your arguments on the fact that whenever a challenge arises, we can just magic up some technology to make the problem go away. That isn't always going to happen and it's a terrible gamble to place the future of humanity on.
    At a time when we're rapidly closing in on peak oil while most first world countries are still getting ~90% of their energy from these fossil fuels, it's ridiculous to advocate increasing the burden on our energy production while we have no real plan for what we'll do when the oil runs out.


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    prinz wrote: »
    http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/migration/migration.htm

    Some interesting stuff from the UN there. I particularly like the suggestion of raising the retirement age to 75... that's sure to go down well. On the other hand talk about having kids and stay at home parents and you'll get marginalised and scoffed at, particularly if you are a woman.

    You make a good point about the how difficult it is for one parent to stay at home and look after their kids - be they a man or a woman. For most parents the choice of whether to stay at home or work simply doesn't exist. There is something very sad about this, and I would largely see this as being a classic example of how ultra-capitalist, dog eat dog economics work in practice. I wouldn't necessarily tie it in with a declining birthrate though.

    Keeping retirement and health-care systems for older persons solvent in the face of declining and ageing populations, for example, constitutes
    a new situation that poses serious challenges for Governments and civil society.

    Indeed it does. Then why are vast numbers of goverments in the developed world barely touching on the issue at best or ignoring the issue at worst and leaving it to the likes of the RCC to bring up?

    Some other related topics..

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/world/europe/21iht-LETTER.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html?pagewanted=all

    I would imagine that governments ignore the potential timebomb of an aging population with inadequate pension provision for the simple reason that it isn't an immediate problem for them, and that someone else will come up with an idea when the time comes. Political expediency and the classics human failing of being unable to see the long-term picture.

    Having said that, I don't think everyone having more kids is a viable solution either. There are increasingly strains on our resources, and while human ingenuity has gone quite a way in helping us feed a growing population (the green revolution), this has come at a cost - increased water consumption and loss of biodiversity. We can't trust on our luck to hold. In the long run, designing and economy which doesn't hold to human greed as it's prime motivating factor and that doesn't go into crisis every time economic growth drops 1-2% seems to be a far more preferable solution to me. For example, someone in their late 60s might like to continue to work on reduced hours which would reduce their pension costs.


  • #43
    Atomicjuicer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭Atomicjuicer


    This thread has brought up a lot of discussion about some different topics which is good. I think we need more debate about how to change humanity for the better.


  • #44
    Stereomaniac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Stereomaniac


    Exactly. This thread is interesting, if nothing else. Some pretty interesting articles being posted. Also, I have to agree with Benny there about why governments don't address the issue.


  • #45
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    Nope I'm not forgetting it. The death rate is similarly high and a direct result of the high birth rate and inability of the resources to cope with that birth rate. If African countries were to lower their birthrate, they would be able to grow and prosper. Instead we have a terrible situation where couples have large families, most of which have terrible standards of living and just barely survive.
    As for the spread of aids, that's as a result of the big birth rate which you are advocating, and the lack of artificial birth control which you blame for depopulation.

    Africa does not have an over population issue. It does have some very complicated issues but population is not one of them. If anything Africa suffers primarily from the racism of the west. The population density is one tenth that of the UK and the UK is for from being at capacity, yet the USAID spends nearly 400 million dollars a year on contraceptive programs.
    There is no shortage of contraceptives in Africa but there is a severe shortage of medical supplies to cope with diseases like malaria.
    Just look at the inserts in magazines looking for money to sort out medical issues. Are any of these for contraceptives?
    Anita Blow wrote: »
    You can't deny that we live in a world of finite resources and you're basing your arguments on the fact that whenever a challenge arises, we can just magic up some technology to make the problem go away. That isn't always going to happen and it's a terrible gamble to place the future of humanity on.

    No one is saying that resources are infinite. Yes there may some day come a problem that technology or human ingenuity cannot overcome, but we are not there yet.
    Many of the worlds problems are not due to resource issues but can be laid squarely at the feet of governments who either abuse their powers or implement policies that are based on bad information, pseudo science or misguided ideologies.
    Anita Blow wrote: »
    At a time when we're rapidly closing in on peak oil while most first world countries are still getting ~90% of their energy from these fossil fuels, it's ridiculous to advocate increasing the burden on our energy production while we have no real plan for what we'll do when the oil runs out.

    I'm not a big fan of oil or electricity. The sooner we lose one or the other the better.

    Just how big is the Sahara? Could we not put a giant solar array across it?
    There are vast areas of Siberia that are unpopulated that could also support a very large set of solar panels.
    The Poles equally if we werent so bloody sentimental about them.

    Fine, these ideas may be off the wall but they are ideas, and the Sahara one has been looked at and may happen yet. It could supply both Africa and Europe indefinitely.

    Similar plans are being reviewed for American deserts.

    They are viable, all it takes is political will.

    Now, have you watched the video yet?


  • #46
    Doc Farrell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,882 ✭✭✭Doc Farrell


    Well, it was certainly a fascinating documentary. Although funded by family focused organisations and individuals it would be foolish to decry the academic qualifications of most of the contributors.
    I am particularly ignorant on this subject so will have to refrain from pontificating.

    Here are contrary opinions on the subject of a potential demographic winter along with the world birth rates kindly provided by the CIA.

    http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2008/03/the-demographic-winter-and-the

    http://www.populationmedia.org/2010/01/19/ignore-the-bluster-of-demographic-winter-alarmists/

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html

    I was nettled by a quote from a Latvian politician when she said that the Latvian population declined by 13 % between 1989 and 2002. I suspect a sizable percentage of that 13% are here in Ireland and pushing prams!

    Although it appears impossible to argue that western European populations are not aging it seems to me too early to understand how the immigration of North Africans and soon Asians and in particular, Chinese, will affect those figures.


Advertisement