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€14.56m Spent so far (Not including basic wages) on policing 'Shell to Sea'

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    #152
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    20Cent wrote: »
    Was he asked to show id can't hear it. Also that might take more than a few seconds to get his wallet or wherever he keeps it. They give him no time to respond before forcing the window then smashing it. Since when does hesitating to respond to a garda allow them to respond with violence.

    He was inside a car with the window and door closed. How could he be a threat to them. Even when the door was opened they straight away threaten him with pepper spray!
    And now we come back to the use of Occam's Razor that Hayte objected so strongly to earlier.

    In one narrative, the jackbooted thug cops are lying in wait for an innocent victim who's so terrified of the oppressive forces of the police state he leaves a camera running in his car to protect himself from their evil clutches. When stopped by the cops, he's so [deaf|scared|hesitant] (delete as appropriate) that he doesn't respond within microseconds to the questions which he may or may not have been asked. He fumbles (or not) for his ID (which he may or may not have been asked for) for two or three seconds, during which time his window has been smashed in and he has been dragged off to the gulags.

    In the other, a driver arrives at a checkpoint. He is asked where he's going (a question I've been asked at roughly half the Garda checkpoints I've ever been stopped at, as well as some PSNI ones), to which he shouts a smart-ass answer through a door he refuses to open. He refuses to produce ID as required under the Road Traffic Acts, refuses to pull over to the side of the road when asked twice to do so, also in contravention of the Road Traffic Acts, and refuses to open his door when asked to do so. At this point the Gardaí are faced with a driver who has given them grounds to arrest him, but who refuses to get out of the car, so they break the window and remove him from it.

    Now, one of those narratives makes sense to me. If the other one makes sense to you, you've overdosed on S2S Kool-aid.


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    #153
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    20Cent wrote: »
    Where does he refuse to open the door or window?
    Did he open the door?
    Because your window isn't broken?
    No, because I'm not a complete f*cking moron.


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    #154
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Did he open the door? No, because I'm not a complete f*cking moron.

    Being a moron isn't illegal and doesn't warrant attack and threats afaik.

    Suppose the video speaks for itself. If the gardai were a bit less aggressive maybe they would have the locals onside and we wouldn't have to be spending so much money there.


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    #155
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    20Cent wrote: »
    Being a moron isn't illegal and doesn't warrant attack and threats afaik.

    Suppose the video speaks for itself. If the gardai were a bit less aggressive maybe they would have the locals onside and we wouldn't have to be spending so much money there.

    The video does speak for itself - the guy driving the car is a complete idiot


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    #156
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    20Cent wrote: »
    Being a moron isn't illegal and doesn't warrant attack and threats afaik.
    Refusing to obey the Road Traffic Acts warrants an arrest. You can't arrest someone who is refusing to unlock their car door without breaking the window.
    Suppose the video speaks for itself. If the gardai were a bit less aggressive maybe they would have the locals onside and we wouldn't have to be spending so much money there.
    The locals are, by and large, onside. The vast majority of locals don't set out to give the Gardaí a hard time so they can capture it on video in an attempt to frame them in a bad light.


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    #157
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    OscarBravo & Tipp Man, could you acknowledge that this man could have been stopped repeatedly in the weeks and months preceding and that is one explanation for his behaviour.


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    #158
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    MadsL wrote: »
    OscarBravo & Tipp Man, could you acknowledge that this man could have been stopped repeatedly in the weeks and months preceding and that is one explanation for his behaviour.
    Sure. Will you acknowledge that this man could have set out with the specific intention to provoke the Gardaí into breaking his car window, and that is one explanation for his behaviour?

    We don't know why he acted the way he did. One thing is clear: his own behaviour, whatever his reason for it, was the fundamental cause of the altercation, the broken window, and the arrest.


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    #159
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    20Cent wrote: »
    Video from Mayo, disgraceful behavior by the Gardai. These guys are out of control, no wonder there is resentment towards them. Imagine having to live around there!

    Mans window smashed and he is threatened by gardai.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndjJodItl30
    20Cent wrote: »
    From the guy stopping to the window being forced open is less than a minute. Thought gards were trained not to lose their temper and deal with situations. No wonder its costing a fortune if their arresting people in situations like this.
    20Cent wrote: »
    He couldn't open the window, if he opened the door they would have probably attacked him. Being rude is not illegal yet, the garda reaction was totally over the top they didn't even take a minute to talk to him, threatening to pepper spray someone who is of no danger to them. Disgraceful behavior by the Gardai acting like police state bullies in that episode.
    20Cent wrote: »
    The angry tone from the gard, aggressive approach, the forcing of the window within seconds, the drawn baton. Once out of the car he's threatened with pepper spray! I think I'd keep the door closed myself. Maybe if they took a more patient less aggressive approach it would be better.

    Being stopped at roadblocks, ordered to produce ID, aggressive manner, sounds pretty police state like to me.
    20Cent wrote: »
    No never been stopped at a checkpoint or asked for ID. I'd definitely ask why though if I were.
    They could have waited more then 1 minute to start smashing the window, the Gard at the end sounds hysterical doesn't give the guy a chance to do or even say anything. They took no time to assess the situation. If they had taken a few more minutes it could have all been avoided. Very bad pr for the gardai in the area totally over the top reaction. No wonder locals are installing cameras in their cars for protection. If it wasn't filmed no one would believe it.
    20Cent wrote: »
    I think more than a minute for sure anyway. The guy could have been a bit quicker to cooperate (20 seconds) but the reaction of the gardai is way over the top. He could have been deaf or many other reasons for the delay for all they knew. Smashing the window first and asking questions later, people are innocent until proven guilty in this country even in Mayo. The guy in the vid is a local apparently. Lucky he did record the incident because anyone hearing it would think it unbelievable.

    Can you even acknowledge that the Gardai were too quick to use violence when there was no threat to themselves?
    20Cent wrote: »
    Was he asked to show id can't hear it. Also that might take more than a few seconds to get his wallet or wherever he keeps it. They give him no time to respond before forcing the window then smashing it. Since when does hesitating to respond to a garda allow them to respond with violence.

    He was inside a car with the window and door closed. How could he be a threat to them. Even when the door was opened they straight away threaten him with pepper spray!
    20Cent wrote: »
    Being a moron isn't illegal and doesn't warrant attack and threats afaik.

    Suppose the video speaks for itself. If the gardai were a bit less aggressive maybe they would have the locals onside and we wouldn't have to be spending so much money there.

    Are you having a laugh? Seriously, if I was in the car behind that idiot, I would have been out of my car asking the gardai to do something about the stupid idiot that was holding me up.

    The gardai gave him plenty of time, it was nearly a minute and a half before the window got broken.

    He refused to give details about where he was going and what he was doing - "I'm going about my business"- would be the typical answer of a gang member or an IRA thug. His tone was agreesive at all times - the fact that we could not hear the gardai through the video would indicate that they spoke in normal tones in a routine manner. He refused to pull his car over to the side which he was clearly asked to do. He refused to open his window. He states that the window was broken, which we only have his word for, which means he may have been guilty of an offence.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0054.html

    If the windows of a vehicle do not open, they pose a risk to those inside the vehicle in the event of a crash as the avenues of escape are limited e.g. if the car is pinned up against a low wall on the driver's side and the passenget side is blocked by the other vehicle, escape can only be through the driver's window.

    I think he was lucky to be treated as leniently as he was.


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    #160
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Here's the other side of a conversation...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw7iZXty8uY


    A small portion of that overtime...


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    #161
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Sure. Will you acknowledge that this man could have set out with the specific intention to provoke the Gardaí into breaking his car window, and that is one explanation for his behaviour?

    We don't know why he acted the way he did. One thing is clear: his own behaviour, whatever his reason for it, was the fundamental cause of the altercation, the broken window, and the arrest.

    I'll acknowledge it, however it seems the Guard who was most wound up by it had that least interaction. It also seems as little over the top.

    My wife has been stopped at a roadcheck and instructed to move, but refused as the Ban-Garda was standing in front of the car which she considered a safety issue, as she politely explained (and got a laughing agreement from the Ban-Garda standing at her open window)

    Imagine had she been pepper-sprayed in response...


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    #162
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    MadsL wrote: »
    Here's the other side of a conversation...
    I'm sure that demonstrates a point of devastating importance to you, but to me it shows someone with too much time on his hands being a bit of a prick to a Garda.

    Tell me: if you interrogated a cop on the streets of Albuquerque in that manner, how do you suppose you'd get on?

    For that matter, if you were stopped by a cop there and refused to open your window or door, or show your licence, or pull over - what would be the likely consequence?


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    #163
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    MadsL wrote: »
    My wife has been stopped at a roadcheck and instructed to move, but refused as the Ban-Garda was standing in front of the car which she considered a safety issue, as she politely explained (and got a laughing agreement from the Ban-Garda standing at her open window)

    Imagine had she been pepper-sprayed in response...
    Polite explanation, laughing agreement. It's amazing how smoothly interactions go with the police when you're not going out of your way to be an obnoxious moron, isn't it?


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    #164
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    MadsL wrote: »
    Here's the other side of a conversation...



    A small portion of that overtime...


    That poor man in a car getting harrassed by some member of the public called Tadhg coming up and sticking a camera in his face and asking him questions and annoying him when he was just going about his business.

    Now if Tadhg was a guard, he might have some authority to go over there and ask the questions.


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    #165
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,631 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    20Cent wrote: »
    Video from Mayo, disgraceful behavior by the Gardai. These guys are out of control, no wonder there is resentment towards them. Imagine having to live around there!

    Mans window smashed and he is threatened by gardai.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndjJodItl30

    Ha ha is that the best the STS can do. Keep provoking the garda to stay in the news. I have some news for you i.e. we don't care about your silly campaign.
    I have passed through thousands of checkpoints on the border (both sides) and have never had an incident. Why ? Because I behave myself and don't look for trouble. Poor effort to be fair.


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    #166
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    oscarBravo wrote: »

    Tell me: if you interrogated a cop on the streets of Albuquerque in that manner, how do you suppose you'd get on?


    It's a strawman, but I'll bite.

    First port of call would be the 1st Amendment right to free assembly, which despite me not being a citizen some rights are protected under the Constitution.

    Regarding asking the cop what he was doing (interrogated is a bit pejorative perhaps?) I'd say I'd get on fine, assuming that they did as this 'gentleman' did and failed to identify themselves as a cop. They have no power of arrest until they clearly identify themselves as police.

    Out of interest what crime do you think I would be committing by asking a guy dressed in black in a plain black car why he was taking photographs of my friends?

    I also think there is something of a slur in that question, I have found US cops much more polite than dealings with AGS.


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    #167
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Godge wrote: »
    Are you having a laugh? Seriously, if I was in the car behind that idiot, I would have been out of my car asking the gardai to do something about the stupid idiot that was holding me up.

    The gardai gave him plenty of time, it was nearly a minute and a half before the window got broken.

    He refused to give details about where he was going and what he was doing - "I'm going about my business"- would be the typical answer of a gang member or an IRA thug. His tone was agreesive at all times - the fact that we could not hear the gardai through the video would indicate that they spoke in normal tones in a routine manner. He refused to pull his car over to the side which he was clearly asked to do. He refused to open his window. He states that the window was broken, which we only have his word for, which means he may have been guilty of an offence.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0054.html

    If the windows of a vehicle do not open, they pose a risk to those inside the vehicle in the event of a crash as the avenues of escape are limited e.g. if the car is pinned up against a low wall on the driver's side and the passenget side is blocked by the other vehicle, escape can only be through the driver's window.

    I think he was lucky to be treated as leniently as he was.

    What do you think should be done to him?


    Don't see why our Gardai have to behave like that in a totally non stressful situation. Despite what Shell want we still have rules of law.


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    #168
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    20Cent wrote: »
    What do you think should be done to him?


    Don't see why our Gardai have to behave like that in a totally non stressful situation. Despite what Shell want we still have rules of law.

    for about the 10th time - why didn't he produce his licence when asked to, why didn't he pull over off the road when asked to, why didn't he open his door when asked to, why didn't he get out of the car when asked to


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    #169
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    for about the 10th time - why didn't he produce his licence when asked to, why didn't he pull over off the road when asked to, why didn't he open his door when asked to, why didn't he get out of the car when asked to

    How on earth would I know!!
    Why did the gards over react so much, why not give the guy some time (more than a minute) before smashing the window and threatening him. You seem to think this type of behavior is ok. If you don't show id within a minute its ok to get violent? The guard at the end sounds like he's very angry. If such a small incident drives him to such violence he has no business in the gardai. Keeping cool and controling the situation is what they are supposed to do, keep the peace not break it.


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    #170
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    20Cent wrote: »
    Don't see why our Gardai have to behave like that in a totally non stressful situation.
    That's because you're working hard to avoid cognitive dissonance. Like when you glossed over my thought experiment earlier - you don't want to actually have to think about this issue in any objective way, because that might force you to challenge your unquestioning belief in everything you've been told by S2S.


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    #171
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    20Cent wrote: »
    Why did the gards over react so much, why not give the guy some time (more than a minute) before smashing the window and threatening him.
    Because he refused to follow any of the instructions he was given.
    You seem to think this type of behavior is ok.
    You seem to think that the Road Traffic Acts don't apply to S2S supporters.
    Keeping cool and controling the situation is what they are supposed to do, keep the peace not break it.
    Again: you actually can't see past the propaganda, can you?


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    #172
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    20Cent wrote: »
    What do you think should be done to him?


    Don't see why our Gardai have to behave like that in a totally non stressful situation. Despite what Shell want we still have rules of law.


    For a start, multiple breaches of the Road Traffic Act suggest to me that he should have been arrested and taken down to the garda station, his defective vehicle impounded and him prosecuted.


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    #173
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    That's because you're working hard to avoid cognitive dissonance. Like when you glossed over my thought experiment earlier - you don't want to actually have to think about this issue in any objective way, because that might force you to challenge your unquestioning belief in everything you've been told by S2S.

    Not at all. Any gard will tell you the last thing they want is some raging colleague who turns any situation for the worse. Haven't been following S2S very closely at all never that interested in it tbh.


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    #174
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    OscarBravo, you asked the question...I answered it. I asked you what crime do you think I would be committing that I would have reason to be fearful of the police in ABQ, or Mayo for that matter?

    Could you answer the question please.


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    #175
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    20Cent wrote: »
    How on earth would I know!!
    Why did the gards over react so much, why not give the guy some time (more than a minute) before smashing the window and threatening him. You seem to think this type of behavior is ok. If you don't show id within a minute its ok to get violent? The guard at the end sounds like he's very angry. If such a small incident drives him to such violence he has no business in the gardai. Keeping cool and controling the situation is what they are supposed to do, keep the peace not break it.

    He was given ample time to get his licence, he was given ample time to pull over as instructed, he was given ample time to open his door and tell them his window couldn't open. He also refused to get out of the car

    He decided to act like an idiot - He had no intention of complying with any of the Garda requests no matter how long they stayed there asking him


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    #176
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    MadsL wrote: »
    OscarBravo, you asked the question...I answered it. I asked you what crime do you think I would be committing that I would have reason to be fearful of the police in ABQ, or Mayo for that matter?

    Could you answer the question please.
    I don't think you'd be committing a crime. I just don't think you'd get a particularly warm welcome from a cop anywhere in the world if you stuck a camera in his face and got all snarky and smart-assed like the chap in the video you linked.

    Now, if you believe that you'd get a warm and fuzzy response, we'll agree to differ yet again.

    Speaking of answering questions, can you answer this one: If you were stopped by a cop there and refused to open your window or door, or show your licence, or pull over - what would be the likely consequence?


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    #177
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Godge wrote: »
    For a start, multiple breaches of the Road Traffic Act suggest to me that he should have been arrested and taken down to the garda station, his defective vehicle impounded and him prosecuted.

    Oh, so Guards can start smashing the windows of those who leave their foglights on, have missing headlight bulbs, or defective brakelights. Motors forum will be thrilled, they keep asking for enforcement of the Road Traffic Act.

    When was the last time you heard of someone arrested, taken down to the garda station, defective vehicle impounded and prosecuted.

    Last I heard of someone getting their vehicle impounded, the driver was Romanian friend of mine, driving a legal vehicle with no defects on a Romanian licence - all perfectly legal. His licence was called a 'fake' by the Garda, who arrested him and impounded the vehicle. No apology on release.


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    #178
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    He was given ample time to get his licence, he was given ample time to pull over as instructed, he was given ample time to open his door and tell them his window couldn't open. He also refused to get out of the car

    He decided to act like an idiot - He had no intention of complying with any of the Garda requests no matter how long they stayed there asking him
    Don't bother - you're not spouting S2S propaganda, so it's not going to get through the filter. You're wasting your time.


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    #179
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    MadsL wrote: »
    Oh, so Guards can start smashing the windows of those who leave their foglights on...
    What a giant straw man. He had his window broken in order to arrest him. He was, in effect, resisting arrest.


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    #180
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Don't bother - you're not spouting S2S propaganda, so it's not going to get through the filter. You're wasting your time.

    It would appear so -amazing how people can be so blinded


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    #181
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't think you'd be committing a crime. I just don't think you'd get a particularly warm welcome from a cop anywhere in the world if you stuck a camera in his face and got all snarky and smart-assed like the chap in the video you linked.

    Now, if you believe that you'd get a warm and fuzzy response, we'll agree to differ yet again.

    You are being oblique. What does a 'warm welcome?' mean. 'warm and fuzzy'? I'm sorry, I thought we were having a serious debate about civil liberties.

    Do you think cops should identify themselves when asked, particularly if taking photographs in a public place?
    Speaking of answering questions, can you answer this one: If you were stopped by a cop there and refused to open your window or door, or show your licence, or pull over - what would be the likely consequence?

    Likely a gun in your face, but let's consider the likelihood of a stop here having a weapon involved, as my car/truck is considered an extension of my home and I am legally allowed to conceal a weapon in it.

    Compare that to the likelihood that the guy in the video is armed or means harm to the Gardai. If the Ban-Garda believes he is a risk, why does she go and stand in front of the car!

    edit: "snarky and smart-assed" - you do mean the Guard don't you? "Hugs and Kisses" - what did the guy outside the car say that was "snarky and smart-assed". Asking if this was a reasonable use of resources of police time, I thought was a reasonable question.


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