Ramps Speed Ramps

galwaycyclist · 07-02-2012 07:52PM

bk wrote: »

However I don't think it should be done, as it encourages people to drive faster then they should. Remember a speed limit is the maximum speed allowed in perfect conditions, it isn't a target and you should drive slower if the conditions called for it (e.g. rain). I would fear that such a system would lull people into driving at the max speed.

That is a reasonable observation and it may indeed happen however surely we should be attempting to determine where the balance of advantage would lie with reference to current methods of speed management?

At the moment it can be seen with some forms of traffic calming that a proportion of motorists will race from feature to feature. For instance, with road narrowings and pinch points some will motorists will try to "race" cyclists to get into gaps where both cannot safely fit. (This type of behaviour being one of the things that leads directly to some people taking their bicycles to the footpath

)

I suspect that at the moment, in urban environments, many motorists are already driving at what they judge to be their personal "maximum" speed anyway. In many cases this "judgement" results in speeds that exceed the stated speed limit. If we end up with the same behaviour but within a lower speed constraint, smoother traffic, less noise pollution and less disruption to the emergency services then are these not all on the plus side?

SeanW · 07-02-2012 07:59PM

monument wrote: »

Not to be too pedantic, but GPS enforcement would not be enforcement of new laws, but just what you are looking for enforcement of existing speeding laws.

No, it would be new law, it would be a mandate for motorists to carry working GPS speed governors in their cars. Likely backed by serious new costs imposed on motorists to pay for it, and serious consequences for tampering etc.

It is NEW law. No more, no less.

In addition, while your GPS-speed limiters wet dream idea would indeed stop people speeding through school zones, which would be great, it would be a different story where the speed limits bear no relation to any safe cruising speed - and there are plenty of those, both limits too high, and limits too low. For that alone, it's more trouble than it is worth.

However.

Speed cameras at schools, parking wardens at trouble spots etc, they are all within current law which is more than adequate. That is what I mean when I say enforcement of CURRENT law. Not GPS mandates which would be NEW law.

But re cyclists anyway: On the spot fines need to be brought in ASAP -- this is promised in the national cycle policy but as with many of the other measures in the policy, the department is dragging its feet. Serious or repeat offenders could also be brought to court and given mandatory cycling training (to be paid for by the offender) and after that bicycles should be taken off people who keep offending.

Agreed, but it's impossible to keep track of law breaking cyclists because:

Law enforcement against cyclists is virtually nonexistant.
Cyclists do have to carry registration plates on their bikes - difficult to identify even with good CCTV. You can forget about automatic enforcement like with the speed cameras.
Cyclists do not have to have licenses, meaning a new system would have to be set up to track offenders.

Now, I don't mind this, within reason, but I think it's somewhat galling to read cycling extremists going on about under-regulated motorists given the above.

That is when I think "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."

SeanW · 07-02-2012 08:04PM

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I suspect that at the moment, in urban environments, many motorists are already driving at what they judge to be their personal "maximum" speed anyway. In many cases this "judgement" results in speeds that exceed the stated speed limit.

You seem to be under deilllusion that speed limits only exist around schools and in urban areas, and that they are all perfect guides to road safety in all cases and at all times.

You are wrong on both counts, if that is your view.

galwaycyclist · 07-02-2012 08:11PM

SeanW wrote: »

You seem to be under deilllusion that speed limits only exist around schools and in urban areas, and that they are all perfect guides to road safety in all cases and at all times.

You are wrong on both counts, if that is your view.

If they are wrong then how do you propose to get them fixed if they are not being enforced anyway?

I might take the view that the fact that we appear to have so many speed limits that are deemed as unworkable is proof positive that they are not being enforced.

Therefore it is proof positive that we need some alternative such as speed ramps until such time as an effective method of enforcement is found.

L1011 · 07-02-2012 10:34PM

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Fixed your post for you there. I don't believe anyone here has suggested new types of traffic regulation what we are discussing is speed management. The purpose of speed ramps is to manage the speed of vehicles on the treated road. If this is not an acceptable means of speed management then what is?

"Fixed" it by making it nonsensical in a pathetic childish attempt to turn the statement.. Grow up - "fixed your post" is what 12 year olds do - or cycling fanatics on this forum (it being a IWH habit also).

You have suggested two completely impractical methods of regulating motorists while consistently and repeatedly avoiding the concept of any form of regulations for cyclists.

Speed ramps "manage" speed by making people travel at as low as 20% of the speed limit, when adjusting the limits is what is required

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Also for the record, in terms of the traffic regulations, there is no distinction drawn between persons driving motor vehicles or persons driving pedal cycles. The law also defines minimum standards of mechanical servicability for pedal cycles which the Garda are empowered to enforce.

There is no licencing, insurance, or inspections for cyclists. Ergo there is no regulation.

tharlear · 07-02-2012 11:09PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tharlear
GPS does not take account of topology.

Hmm last time I checked GPS actually calculates your position in three dimension (it actually gets two positions being the intersections of spheres but discards one because its in outer space).

But why restrict ourselves to gps? What about roadside transponders instead?

Ok maybe I was over simplifying, for sake of keeping it short.

4 sat are needed for accurate 3d positioning. seehttp://www.cmtinc.com/gpsbook/

End result is on a steep incline you may see your gps speed change while your speedo remains at 70mph. I noticed this several tiems as I was decending into river valleys on interstates and rural US roads. There are multiple reason to do with GPS sat clock accuracy and line of site issues.

galwaycyclist · 07-02-2012 11:39PM

tharlear wrote: »

End result is on a steep incline you may see your gps speed change while your speedo remains at 70mph. I noticed this several tiems as I was decending into river valleys on interstates and rural US roads. There are multiple reason to do with GPS sat clock accuracy and line of site issues.

Thats an interesting point. So that would suggest that for the speed component we would need something tied to the engine management system? What about the position refresh rate at those kind of speeds?

L1011 · 07-02-2012 11:45PM

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Thats an interesting point. So that would suggest that for the speed component we would need something tied to the engine management system? What about the position refresh rate at those kind of speeds?

Engine management speed readouts are not guaranteed to be accurate by any means.

Your ideas don't work.

dubhthach · 07-02-2012 11:51PM

the thread is suppose to be about Speed bumps, debate about theoretical engine speed limiters is better held in some Sci-Fi forum.

monument · 08-02-2012 12:13AM

I somehow missed where galwaycyclist said 'limiter' -- I was thinking he was just taking about a speed enforcement device. I do not agree with the idea of a speed limiter device linked to the engine.

Come to think of it, there's little point arguing with a speed enforcement device (one without limiter). Why? Because the computer driven cars Google etc are developing must be able to know the speed limit to be able to function.

galwaycyclist · 08-02-2012 12:22AM

dubhthach wrote: »

the thread is suppose to be about Speed bumps, .

I see that under the smarter travel funding announced last week Limerick are going to be putting in raised platform junctions. Its refreshing to see an Irish city showing leadership in these things.

galwaycyclist · 08-02-2012 12:55AM

dubhthach wrote: »

the thread is suppose to be about Speed bumps, debate about theoretical engine speed limiters is better held in some Sci-Fi forum.

Just to put this to bed. Rather than being science fiction Intelligent Speed Adaptation systems are an established technology. Its been around for about 20 years.

http://www.shlow.eu/documents/shlow-camp/8%20ITS%20and%20ISA.pdf

SeanW · 08-02-2012 01:03AM

monument wrote: »

I somehow missed where galwaycyclist said 'limiter' -- I was thinking he was just taking about a speed enforcement device. I do not agree with the idea of a speed limiter device linked to the engine.

I am afraid he did ...

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yes ideally what is needed is some form of gps based speed limiting system fitted to all cars. Why should the state be bearing the cost of traffic calming measures when the problem can be fixed at source?

monument · 08-02-2012 01:13AM

SeanW wrote: »

Eh hem ...

As I said, I somehow missed the word 'limiting'. I was thinking he was only taking about a tracker and reporting system, which would be linked in with the current system of fines and points etc. Or, maybe more likely, I misread it to mean that the system would 'limit' speed via driver action rather than a system which would force the engine to slow. A system which is linked to the engine is unworkable and undesirable for a whole host of reasons.

My last post was my correction saying I had misread his post! I was wrong, I made a mistake and am only human!

SeanW · 08-02-2012 01:20AM

fair enough, I misread your post.

tharlear · 08-02-2012 06:10PM

If the object is to reduce speed without going into "scifi" expensive systems, then an easy way to reduce speed is to repace a section of the road with old style cobbles or in residential areas require cobbles. Not the crap if seen on irish speed bumps
The street west of were I live has it origional 1890 cobbles, its difficult to go over 30kph~ 20mph with out rattling around like crazy. My street had the cobbles tarred over and then ripped out "1960" and replaced with concret in 1980, people regularly pass doing 80kph 50mph, and theres a stop sign 100 yards from my house. Never see that on the cobble street.

One could use differet types of cobbles depending on the speed requirement. Car test circuits use this to test suspensions

However have cycled on cobbled streets I'm gussing that this method of speed control will not go down well with cyclists.

Paparazzo · 08-02-2012 06:30PM

Is there any reason why speed bumps should be so severe that you can't do the speed limit over them?

MYOB wrote: »

Those regs would make "speed cushions" as beloved by the Dublin authorities illegal (not full width), make the most annoying ramps in Maynooth illegal (bus services) and make KCC's fake-brick ones illegal (not hot rolled asphalt).

Time to start complaining...

All those speed cushions seem to do is make people swerve so their wheels are between them.

Whoever decided those red top speed cushions were a good idea should be sacked. Purely because they're so badly constructed. The surface of them is clearly way worse quality than the existing road. They might as well leave the old road

Sad to see the council lay a perfectly good new road, then a week later cut holes in it for these stupid things.

L1011 · 08-02-2012 07:10PM

tharlear wrote: »

If the object is to reduce speed without going into "scifi" expensive systems, then an easy way to reduce speed is to repace a section of the road with old style cobbles or in residential areas require cobbles. Not the crap if seen on irish speed bumps
The street west of were I live has it origional 1890 cobbles, its difficult to go over 30kph~ 20mph with out rattling around like crazy. My street had the cobbles tarred over and then ripped out "1960" and replaced with concret in 1980, people regularly pass doing 80kph 50mph, and theres a stop sign 100 yards from my house. Never see that on the cobble street.

One could use differet types of cobbles depending on the speed requirement. Car test circuits use this to test suspensions

However have cycled on cobbled streets I'm gussing that this method of speed control will not go down well with cyclists.

Seeing as one of the main reasons for requesting ramps is due to noise (rather than safety), cobbles would make that worse and people wouldn't ask for it. Probably a good idea.

And of course the cycling evangelists would object, but it might make them use the cycle lanes rather than the road for once.

miller50841 · 08-02-2012 07:28PM

Hi all I started this as about the safety cocerns about RAMPS and from what I have read most of the time it's off point.

My main concern is how high most ramps are now and cause emergency vehicles to have to come to a near stop to get over this has to be crazy well it is to me and has to be causing deaths.

The cost of these are crazy also and as said also they have nearly all crumbled away and now again are been either patched or dug up and replaced so should the first contractor not be responsible for this as none were layed properly.

Just hope it stays on point;)

monument · 09-02-2012 12:24AM

miller50841 wrote: »

Hi all I started this as about the safety cocerns about RAMPS and from what I have read most of the time it's off point.

My main concern is how high most ramps are now and cause emergency vehicles to have to come to a near stop to get over this has to be crazy well it is to me and has to be causing deaths.

The cost of these are crazy also and as said also they have nearly all crumbled away and now again are been either patched or dug up and replaced so should the first contractor not be responsible for this as none were layed properly.

Just hope it stays on point;)

It's this simple: Speed ramps were one of many measures which have helped Dublin to lower the amounts of deaths and injuries, as well as making it a nicer place to live in, work in and visit.

dubhthach · 09-02-2012 01:32PM

monument wrote: »

It's this simple: Speed ramps were one of many measures which have helped Dublin to lower the amounts of deaths and injuries, as well as making it a nicer place to live in, work in and visit.

All well and good but he does have a point about some speedbumps been given very "high gradients" and the affects this has on both motorusers and emergency vehicles.

In Dublin 4 in comparison the speed bumps are large and fairly gentle gradient. Ye have no problem driving your "Maserati" (insert other expensive Marque) over them at the speed limit -- before someone claims that I'm making biased comments, I live in D4.

Carawaystick · 09-02-2012 09:32PM

There are speed ramps on Nutley Lane, the main route to Vincent's Hospital.
Because ambulances would never need to rush people there...
:eek:

Ninap · 09-02-2012 09:46PM

Ramps are dire. Even well constructed ones are a bad idea, but the cowboy ones which litter Dublin are appalling.

Road humps are a crude and ineffective way to deal with excessive speed. They are installed with no common standard, cannot be crossed without discomfort at even a very slow speed, cause severe (and potentially highly dangerous) damage to cars (including inner tyre walls and suspension parts), hinder the emergency services, can cause back injury to drivers, cause road damage, and increase pollution (through cars braking and accelerating unnecessarily). They are sited, randomly, on several main thoroughfares (eg Leinster Road in Dublin 6). There is no proper public consultation on the installation of these nonsensical barriers.

There are many other safer and more effective traffic calming measures. In the UK, many local
councils have begun to remove road humps. Unfortunately the only way to get rid of them in Ireland will probably be for individuals to sue County Councils for car damage or personal injury linked to ramps.

monument · 09-02-2012 09:49PM

dubhthach wrote: »

All well and good but he does have a point about some speedbumps been given very "high gradients" and the affects this has on both motorusers and emergency vehicles.

In Dublin 4 in comparison the speed bumps are large and fairly gentle gradient. Ye have no problem driving your "Maserati" (insert other expensive Marque) over them at the speed limit -- before someone claims that I'm making biased comments, I live in D4.

I should have said: I would agree that many speed bumps on private grounds are crazy. As a cyclist I had to suffer them for years every day cycling into DCU. Both motorists and cyclists have to crawl to a near stop to go over them.

bk · 13-02-2012 12:29PM

tharlear wrote: »

However have cycled on cobbled streets I'm gussing that this method of speed control will not go down well with cyclists.

Not necessarily, cyclists could well welcome this if a well designed and maintained * cycle lane was provided next to the cobbled road.

Speed bumps can actually be quiet dangerous for cyclists. Most speed bumps leave a space at the side of the road for a cyclist to use without going over the speed bump. Unfortunately I often see drivers aim for this spot too, to reduce how much they go over the speed bump, but this results in them getting very close to the footpath which can be very dangerous very any passing cyclist.

* Most cyclists have no problem with the concept of cycling lanes, they only have a problem with the awful implementation of must cycle lanes in Ireland.

galwaycyclist · 13-02-2012 04:50PM

bk wrote: »

Not necessarily, cyclists could well welcome this if a well designed and maintained * cycle lane was provided next to the cobbled road.

Speed bumps can actually be quiet dangerous for cyclists. Most speed bumps leave a space at the side of the road for a cyclist to use without going over the speed bump. Unfortunately I often see drivers aim for this spot too, to reduce how much they go over the speed bump, but this results in them getting very close to the footpath which can be very dangerous very any passing cyclist.

* Most cyclists have no problem with the concept of cycling lanes, they only have a problem with the awful implementation of must cycle lanes in Ireland.

There is a thing called a "sinusoidal" ramp profile which is supposed to be less stressful for cyclists to traverse while still encouraging slower speeds from cars.

I am aware of one example where there are cycle lanes at the edge of speed ramps and motorists use the cycle lanes to avoid the ramps. Of course on the kind of residential streets where ramps are typically used, there should be no need for cycle lanes anyway.

galwaycyclist · 13-02-2012 04:55PM

Paparazzo wrote: »

All those speed cushions seem to do is make people swerve so their wheels are between them.

Whoever decided those red top speed cushions were a good idea should be sacked. Purely because they're so badly constructed. The surface of them is clearly way worse quality than the existing road. They might as well leave the old road

Sad to see the council lay a perfectly good new road, then a week later cut holes in it for these stupid things.

Leaving aside construction standards -the theory of speed cushions is that they should not interfere with emergency vehicles or public transport while slowing down cars. This is what the idea was when they were developed in the Netherlands, Germany etc.

Their emergency vehicles etc have a demonstrably wider wheel track than their cars. The problem in Ireland is that our emergency vehicles tend to have a "dual wheel" arrangement on the back axle. This makes it difficult for us to achieve the same effect.

monument · 13-02-2012 05:04PM

I understand the aim of these speed ramps in Swords are to be cyclist and bus friendly:

View in Street View.

miller50841 · 17-02-2012 11:20PM

monument wrote: »

It's this simple: Speed ramps were one of many measures which have helped Dublin to lower the amounts of deaths and injuries, as well as making it a nicer place to live in, work in and visit.

Dont know where you came up with that we dont need these bumps and now holes on bumps, as if they really want people to be safe on the roads the Gardai need to be able to enforce the law which daily I see is not happening

miller50841 · 17-02-2012 11:26PM

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Leaving aside construction standards -the theory of speed cushions is that they should not interfere with emergency vehicles or public transport while slowing down cars. This is what the idea was when they were developed in the Netherlands, Germany etc.

Their emergency vehicles etc have a demonstrably wider wheel track than their cars. The problem in Ireland is that our emergency vehicles tend to have a "dual wheel" arrangement on the back axle. This makes it difficult for us to achieve the same effect.

These mini ramps do work and let the larger vehicles pass over nearly without touching just they tend not to put these down much, mainly the mad ones that are everywhere now Ireland usualy copies other countries but does their own twist on it....:mad:

Ramps Speed Ramps

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