I'm sorry, maybe too harsh but what the hell is going on in primary schools?

sealgaire · 15-11-2011 05:03PM

the fact that grammar isn't taught to Irish students needs addressing also

byhookorbycrook · 16-11-2011 06:17PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

My primary school was great though; every Friday, from junior infants up to sixth class, we had a ten minute spelling test, going back over new words we learned that week. It never took much time, but it drove the proper spellings into our heads.

Spelling tests in traditional form don't help a large number of children.

lily09 · 16-11-2011 09:41PM

sealgaire wrote: »

the fact that grammar isn't taught to Irish students needs addressing also

It is.

keithmiketom · 17-11-2011 03:54PM

I find it, as an Art Teacher (well, someone who was one before cutbacks - thanks Batt O'Keeffe) that when I get very able students in 5th year to write Art History Essays - basic stuff they should learn in first year - they have no idea about structuring it, dismantling a question, the need for making sections, leave alone basic spelling, grammar and syntax. The syllabus dictates far too much is already known, and, I assume, the leap from primary to secondary leaves a gap. I recommend reading the primary syllabus, and cover with them what needs to be done at the start of the year, like what I have to with 5th years in regards to constructing an essay. Writing an essay is not on my syllabus (despite the fact there are tons of crafts and 8000 years of Art History to learn), but I need to cover it so they can answer an exam.

Fuinseog · 18-11-2011 07:03PM

is it true that they do absolutely no grammar in primary whether it be in Irish or English?

My neighbours son attended a Gaelscoil for six years where they spoke Irish every day yet he still cannot speak the language properly. nearly every sentence is faulty. Do teachers not correct mistakes?

Fuinseog · 18-11-2011 07:06PM

sealgaire wrote: »

the fact that grammar isn't taught to Irish students needs addressing also

grammar is portrayed as difficult and boring, that causes distress. it is not part of fun learning.

golden virginia · 18-11-2011 10:27PM

About what is going on in primary schools is that I have noticed as a second level teacher more students coming through from primary to second level that previously did not make this leap just a few years ago.

Student are cleaner in appearance and are more communicative compared with disheveled dirty and either extremely passive or aggressive.

In recent years i have noticed that all students have a knowledge basis to draw on as 12/13year old -compared with a few years ago the bottom 10th of the class meant that they may not even know the name of the county they lived in!

I would say that what has been going on in primary schools must be affirmed- not bashed.

superhooper · 18-11-2011 10:46PM

Seems to be more emphasis on building confidence in kids rather than teaching the core stuff through talk and chalk. Interesting to know if this is something that post-primary teachers see coming through.

Breoithepaul · 18-11-2011 11:14PM

golden virginia wrote: »

About what is going on in primary schools is that I have noticed as a second level teacher more students coming through from primary to second level that previously did not make this leap just a few years ago.

Student are cleaner in appearance and are more communicative compared with disheveled dirty and either extremely passive or aggressive.

In recent years i have noticed that all students have a knowledge basis to draw on as 12/13year old -compared with a few years ago the bottom 10th of the class meant that they may not even know the name of the county they lived in!

I would say that what has been going on in primary schools must be affirmed- not bashed.

Thank God for SNAs

Inspector Coptoor · 23-11-2011 12:13AM

I think the primary curriculum is too broad and there should be a lot more time spent on English, Irish & Maths with less time down on art, science & music.

I have 2 first year science classes this year & the "training" I had to give them for the first 8 weeks on how to take notes & do lab write ups required the patience of Job.

I, too, am finding students really good at verbal using their ideas, just not as good at writing them down in a decent structure, if the handwriting is legible in the first instance.

Tigerandahalf · 23-11-2011 12:54AM

I know this thread is getting quite broad in its scope.
But anyway what has been said above has to be expected. The new curriculum placed less emphasis on reading/writing and more on oral language/discussion. We are seeing the results now. The same applies with the Gaeilge curriculum going forward - less emphasis on reading/writing and more on speaking. The result should be a better ability to speak the language, but they will be hopeless when it comes to writing anything, god help them when it comes to an exam. We spent years in school rhyming off verbs etc and we found it v challenging to write anything in Irish. The new batch coming through will find it impossible. God bless the teachers.

hattoncracker · 05-01-2012 01:51PM

I think that learning Irish is actually a good way of promoting literacy, I don't think it should be removed at all. In order for someone to be able to properly grasp a language tenses need to be used, along with verbs and nouns, and more importantly, these need to be understood by the students. If a student is learning two different languages, it can be easier for a teacher to demonstrate verbs and sentence structure because its so totally different in these languages.

I was very very lucky to have the teacher from 2nd to 6th class in primary school that I had. For the first six years of primary school our principal was a man in his late sixties, girls were not allowed to do PE, they did knitting during that time. Afterwards we got a female principal who was my teacher for the last four years I was there. She drummed the concepts of verbs, nouns, etc into our heads in both languages. I've just turned 25, and my primary school days were the mid 90's so this wasn't that long ago.

But even with all that, there were 5 people in my class, and 34 people in my school, and we were the only one that small in the region. My mother read with me every night, I was a big reader and loved books. She bought a book of 24 encyclopedias before I was born!

I think literacy in children is a team effort, you need parents, teachers, and the government to be working towards the one goal. Even if the parents aren't that well educated (my mum left school at 15), it'll still work out better if they try.
On the maths front, I left school, got a secretarial qualification, then went into the working environment, this year I started back in University to get a degree, and I'll tell you now I am failing maths because the standard and methods of teaching it in University are poles apart. Early introduction to maths is crucial, especially now with the way that the standards for examining it are changing.

kaji · 05-01-2012 10:15PM

I'm a primary teacher and I've read some of the posts. Here are my thoughts:

1. The teacher has to follow the curriculum first and foremost.
You also have to follow your school plan. You only get a certain amount of time for each subject. There are 10 subjects (plus Religion which isn't on the curriculum). Religion is given 30mins a day, which is a big time waster. It shouldn't be done in school at all. Let parents educate their children about their religion, or set up Sunday schools. Not much time is allocated to core subjects like English, Irish (which the kids like, by the way), Maths. There's too much time for Drama, Music, Geography, History, Science, etc. You have to fulfill the times for these subjects. If it was up to me, I would increase the time for the core subjects. Simples!

2. Parents' attitudes.
They come into the classroom in the morning with an aggressive tone over the smallest of things, e.g Chloe left her lunchbox at school yesterday, why??? John doesn't like sitting next to Adam, he wants to sit next to his friend, please move him. etc, etc. Pure rubbish. The aggressiveness is unbelievable. I can't say to them, because I don't want to be fired, could you please arrange to meet me after school, as I'm actually teaching the class at the moment, they are my responsibility. A lot of the parents are just looking for a fight. It's even explained to parents when they enroll a child in the school that you have to arrange a time with the secretary, not to go busting into classrooms whenever you're bored. Obviously these attitudes filter down to the children. A lot of the children get everything they want, and as such come to school expecting 'to be entertained' for the day.

3. A lot of children don't read at home. This is self-explanatory. It wouldn't kill parents to bring the kids to the library and stock up on books. It's obvious some just watch TV and eat rubbish at home, no reading, no exercise. They are irritable at school then, as it's not as fun as playing the DS.

4. Special needs- there isn't enough support for them. How am I suppose to help a child who is autistic, and has physical problems, with 30 other kids in the room? Someone's going to lose out, it's just not possible.

That's all I can think of at the moment. I know a lot of people are complaining that kids can't spell properly, did they ever consider that these are some of the weaker children? Every class has very able, middling and weaker children. You are trying to accommodate the weaker children, while challenging the more able at the same time. All 30 of them. It probably doesn't sound like much, but if you think of it like this- if you go around to each student for 1 minute assessing their work, that's half an hour gone of you walking around. Cut class sizes, the difference between 25 and 30 kids is so big.

Now before people start complaining about me complaining about the job, well I'm not. I'm just stating it as I see it from my perspective. I love my job.

goldmanem · 07-02-2012 12:11AM

Testify!!
I too am an English teacher and there is no doubt that in the last 15 years the standard of literacy has dropped dramatically. My theory is that they just don't read any more.

saa · 07-02-2012 12:22AM

peanuthead wrote: »

Having students come in to me not able to spell the most basic of words, even the ones who would be considered the more intelligent students, has both annoyed and frustrated me for a long time.

Intelligence isn't determined by spelling, students have their own strengths but mostly students learn in such varied ways even if the system changed it still can't work for everyone. There is a lot of technology to help with language difficulties which is great.

Now the way something is taught, if this is wrong for a child then the child figures out what would help them learn, it seems like more students seem to be so apathetic these days.

Sleepy · 07-02-2012 01:20AM

How new is the phenomenon of poor grammar and spelling on entry to the secondary cycle? Almost 20 years ago (that makes me feel old!) our junior cert teacher made us get JB Strunk's "The Elements of Style" to teach us the grammar we hadn't learned in primary school.

Not that this should be the norm, but for those English teachers on the thread, I'd recommend the book highly. It's still on a shelf in my mother's house and will be given to my children when they're a little older as, with all the problems outlined in many of your posts, I have little faith in our education system's ability to ensure they learn to write with correct grammar.

Fuinseog · 07-02-2012 10:39AM

kaji wrote: »

I'm a primary teacher and I've read some of the posts. Here are my thoughts:

1. The teacher has to follow the curriculum first and foremost.
You also have to follow your school plan. You only get a certain amount of time for each subject. There are 10 subjects (plus Religion which isn't on the curriculum). Religion is given 30mins a day, which is a big time waster. It shouldn't be done in school at all. Let parents educate their children about their religion, or set up Sunday schools. Not much time is allocated to core subjects like English, Irish (which the kids like, by the way), Maths. There's too much time for Drama, Music, Geography, History, Science, etc. You have to fulfill the times for these subjects. If it was up to me, I would increase the time for the core subjects. Simples!

2. Parents' attitudes.
They come into the classroom in the morning with an aggressive tone over the smallest of things, e.g Chloe left her lunchbox at school yesterday, why??? John doesn't like sitting next to Adam, he wants to sit next to his friend, please move him. etc, etc. Pure rubbish. The aggressiveness is unbelievable. I can't say to them, because I don't want to be fired, could you please arrange to meet me after school, as I'm actually teaching the class at the moment, they are my responsibility. A lot of the parents are just looking for a fight. It's even explained to parents when they enroll a child in the school that you have to arrange a time with the secretary, not to go busting into classrooms whenever you're bored. Obviously these attitudes filter down to the children. A lot of the children get everything they want, and as such come to school expecting 'to be entertained' for the day.

3. A lot of children don't read at home. This is self-explanatory. It wouldn't kill parents to bring the kids to the library and stock up on books. It's obvious some just watch TV and eat rubbish at home, no reading, no exercise. They are irritable at school then, as it's not as fun as playing the DS.

4. Special needs- there isn't enough support for them. How am I suppose to help a child who is autistic, and has physical problems, with 30 other kids in the room? Someone's going to lose out, it's just not possible.

That's all I can think of at the moment. I know a lot of people are complaining that kids can't spell properly, did they ever consider that these are some of the weaker children? Every class has very able, middling and weaker children. You are trying to accommodate the weaker children, while challenging the more able at the same time. All 30 of them. It probably doesn't sound like much, but if you think of it like this- if you go around to each student for 1 minute assessing their work, that's half an hour gone of you walking around. Cut class sizes, the difference between 25 and 30 kids is so big.

Now before people start complaining about me complaining about the job, well I'm not. I'm just stating it as I see it from my perspective. I love my job.

an interesting post which unfortunately contains too much reality.
Teachers are not recognised as professionals by the public at large. The concept that any fool can teach is still very strong and we are regarded as a bunch of wasters. education we are told is important, but there is no respect for it in this country.

whether or not parents can waltz in as they please depends a lot on the principal. some entertain it some do not. some will say that parents can drop by whenever they want, which in my view is wrong. a meeting with a parent can take an hour. what about your class in meantime?
in america if a stranger wanders the corridors you ring the police. here we are not as strict and its an accident waiting to happen . i remember meeting a parent who was wandering the school corridors asking for a pupil who she wanted to give out to and maybe even give a slap.

parental involvement can be positive.
when i taught primary the parents organised a library, that was really well stocked and manned by a parent.

byhookorbycrook · 08-02-2012 08:47PM

Re spelling and intelligence, I have a child with a very high IQ but they have severe dyslexia, the spelling of work is something to behold!Orally the work is excellent.

I'm sorry, maybe too harsh but what the hell is going on in primary schools?

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