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Is hydrogen the future of motoring?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26 hydrogenengine


    Yes it was a surprise to hear someone ask "are you the guy on Boards.ie
    at first I denied it but since you were such a nice guy to talk to I thought why not.

    Thanks for your interest, yes it does actually work and very well too as you have seen, since you have seen for yourself and do believe you will have one fitted on that next car you talked about.
    The company we were in is my partner in business and I believe you know each other, he is a serious operator, why would he waste his time if he did not believe?

    I am usually around on a Saturday to oversee fitting on HGVs so if you are around you are welcome to meet up and see first hand a typical installation and emissions test which is evidence in itself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26 hydrogenengine


    Yes it was a surprise to hear someone ask "are you the guy on Boards.ie
    at first I denied it but since you were such a nice guy to talk to I thought why not.

    Thanks for your interest, yes it does actually work and very well too as you have seen, since you have seen for yourself and do believe you will have one fitted on that next car you talked about.
    The company we were in is my partner in business and I believe you know each other, he is a serious operator, why would he waste his time if he did not believe?

    I am usually around on a Saturday to oversee fitting on HGVs so if you are around you are welcome to meet up and see first hand a typical installation and emissions test which is evidence in itself.

    Hey Guys,
    There is a funny side to this subject too, I met the owner of an International Haulage Company. These guys are starting to panic in a big way, first we have rising oil cost and overheads but now the restriction on emissions in London ( including Heathrow Airport) If your truck does not qualify for low emissions one has to pay 500 quid a day penalty, otherwise upgrade etc.
    He admired my car and I mentioned if you wish to test drive you are welcome, I soon realised this guy must have been into rallying, I closed my eyes, one thing to wreck my car but it could have been worse,
    I asked the question hoping to distract him to slow down, he replied he had an RS 2000. Sorry I offered, my legs are still shaking.
    He loved the car. We begin work next week.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,282 ✭✭✭Bandara


    I prefer the auld daysel meself


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26 hydrogenengine


    mine is a daysel too, a c220 cdi but with hydrogen it drives like a 3L bmw petrol,
    give you a race anytime if you can get someone to drive mine. now that I think of it I do know someone living down south smileeeeeeeeeeee

    Im not sure what mpg the bmw gets but mine does 65 - 70 and have got 75 on occasions. HHo works much better with diesel engines, dont honestly know why.

    Over one hundred years ago Henry Ford brought out the model T which ran on ethanol and petrol giving 25mpg, today the average car does just 21mpg.

    I wonder why, does anyone here have an answer ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26 hydrogenengine


    Have a read of this, its just the tip of the iceberg, enjoy

    http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/brochure.pdf


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    mine is a daysel too, a c220 cdi but with hydrogen it drives like a 3L bmw petrol,
    give you a race anytime if you can get someone to drive mine. now that I think of it I do know someone living down south smileeeeeeeeeeee

    Im not sure what mpg the bmw gets but mine does 65 - 70 and have got 75 on occasions. HHo works much better with diesel engines, dont honestly know why.

    Over one hundred years ago Henry Ford brought out the model T which ran on ethanol and petrol giving 25mpg, today the average car does just 21mpg.

    I wonder why, does anyone here have an answer ?
    I think thats a bit low tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    WALKING is the future of Motoring :-(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,942 ✭✭✭GavMan




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    well Vicki "the tart" Butler Henderson likes em

    and what ever Vicki says is fine by me, she's from essex you know;)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    GavMan wrote: »
    Interesting alright. IMHO we're way to small a country to put serious investment into two different technologies (pure electric vs hydrogen), arguably we're too small to put serious investment into just one. And since we've already started down the pure electric route, I wouldn't expect to see much happening with hydrogen here for a long time.

    Probably our best chance to see it would be with hydrogen generation in the home, using the home electric supply to generate hydrogen from the home water supply. Small scale devices that do this are becoming commercially available, designed to fill pocket sized fuel cells for powering gadgets. I'd guess these could be scaled up to the point that they could fill a car overnight in the same way that you'd plug an electric car in overnight.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,360 ✭✭✭Mar4ix


    i am thinking build small cell, and add some hho in to intake system in to my punto... I mean mix air with hydrogen, and see what outcome will be.

    Any guide how to build DIY hydrogen cell kit for car ?
    And how much hho suppose to be produced enough to be sufficient for small car like mine( 1.2 petrol engine) to mix up with air.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    Mar4ix wrote: »
    i am thinking build small cell, and add some hho in to intake system in to my punto... I mean mix air with hydrogen, and see what outcome will be.

    Any guide how to build DIY hydrogen cell kit for car ?
    And how much hho suppose to be produced enough to be sufficient for small car like mine( 1.2 petrol engine) to mix up with air.

    Ive built one and installed it. Drove in today to work with it running. Sadly the gasket material I used must have leaked, its under a bit more pressure with the way I installed it in the car vs test bench. Finding a cheap and available rubber gasket has proven retardedly difficult, you would think from the myriad of junk in B&Q/DIY stores something would be available thats thick enough.

    No point drawing conclusions till I fix this. To answer your question 0.5 - 0.75 litres per min of HHO should be enough for your car.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,360 ✭✭✭Mar4ix


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    Ive built one and installed it. Drove in today to work with it running. Sadly the gasket material I used must have leaked, its under a bit more pressure with the way I installed it in the car vs test bench. Finding a cheap and available rubber gasket has proven retardedly difficult, you would think from the myriad of junk in B&Q/DIY stores something would be available thats thick enough.

    No point drawing conclusions till I fix this. To answer your question 0.5 - 0.75 litres per min of HHO should be enough for your car.


    thanks for replay.

    to produce 0.5 - 0.75 l. hho, how big should be plates? and how many in one cell. i am thinking put cell in bottle or cann with pipe out directly to intake system. there is quiet lot room under punto bonnet.
    also how you stop the process, do you have switch , or every time open bonnet, and disconnect battery? as if you not switch off process, it will be big bang, as there will be lot hydrogen under bonnet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    Ive built one and installed it. Drove in today to work with it running. Sadly the gasket material I used must have leaked, its under a bit more pressure with the way I installed it in the car vs test bench. Finding a cheap and available rubber gasket has proven retardedly difficult, you would think from the myriad of junk in B&Q/DIY stores something would be available thats thick enough.

    No point drawing conclusions till I fix this. To answer your question 0.5 - 0.75 litres per min of HHO should be enough for your car.

    My my you have been busy ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    Mar4ix wrote: »
    thanks for replay.

    to produce 0.5 - 0.75 l. hho, how big should be plates? and how many in one cell. i am thinking put cell in bottle or cann with pipe out directly to intake system. there is quiet lot room under punto bonnet.
    also how you stop the process, do you have switch , or every time open bonnet, and disconnect battery? as if you not switch off process, it will be big bang, as there will be lot hydrogen under bonnet.
    Well Im no expert, but from my reading and experiments, my input:
    There are lots of approaches and theories on material and shape. Basically surface area is the benchmark. Aim for something like an 8plate 6x6" 316SS setup (thats -nnnnnn+). Im actually using 306SS plates but only as I got them easily. You can increase effective surface area by media blasting the plates, if you cant dont get that done, at least sand them.
    Also only bother with "dry cell" designs (ie not a pot of water with wires hanging out of it). With a proper dry cell you dont need/want to put it in a bottle.

    I run my reactor off a relay, its only on when the car is running. The relay has a blade fuse which I can remove to be doubly sure (or disable it but have the engine on). You can get these in Halfords. A more effective but exotic approach would be a voltage sensing relay that will shut off when car is idling, but these seem expensive.
    My my you have been busy ;)
    Its been slower than I planned!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    Ive built one and installed it. Drove in today to work with it running. Sadly the gasket material I used must have leaked, its under a bit more pressure with the way I installed it in the car vs test bench. Finding a cheap and available rubber gasket has proven retardedly difficult, you would think from the myriad of junk in B&Q/DIY stores something would be available thats thick enough.

    .

    something like this?? (1.50 in)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    fryup wrote: »
    something like this?? (1.50 in)
    No not like that! :p
    The Mythbusters video on HHO is well known and so missing the mark its IMO an insult to the audience's intelligence.


    Watch and see the section of them making it (and pretending to use complicated equipment, calculations to do so) and then see production (bubbles of HHO) their gigantic generator achieves, which is virtually nothing, then compare to what mine does (lots of big bubbles, running off a simple DC power supply), its pretty clear this is an entertainment show, not a science show. It was "fun" to discredit Hydrogen.

    Their cell looks like a POS wet cell anyhow. This is a Drycell (my video during testing at 13v):


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    Their cell looks like a POS wet cell anyhow. This is a Drycell (my video during testing at 13v):

    What happened next......



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    lets cut to the chase....how much do these hydrogen kits cost?

    is it best used on old cars with a carburetor?

    and what are the chances of me being blown to kingdom come?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,986 ✭✭✭philstar


    i've seen these hydrogen kits for sale on ebay

    would they be difficult to install? more importantly do they work?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    philstar wrote: »
    i've seen these hydrogen kits for sale on ebay

    would they be difficult to install? more importantly do they work?

    A proper dry cell is more like EUR200-300. Its usually 7 SS plates with gaskets and fittings. Dry cells are fully enclosed, the electrical connections are outside of the water making them safer and more efficient.

    What you linked to looks like a hamster water bottle and some wires. I would not recommend even trying that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    What you linked to looks like a hamster water bottle and some wires. I would not recommend even trying that.

    Need I post another explosion video for effect ????


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,106 ✭✭✭dar83


    Need I post another explosion video for effect ????

    Please. :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 867 ✭✭✭gpjordanf1


    R.O.R wrote: »
    From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14979817



    There was a report on BBC news this morning, live from the 1 pump in Swindon - at the Honda plant.

    Apparently there are 2 Hydrogen powered cars in Europe. The Civic they had to drive up to the pump apparently cost £9,500,000.

    Nothing more than a publicity stunt at the moment, but interesting to see progress is being made.

    ELectric is here, Hydrogen is a pipe dream.

    Also it takes more electricty to produce the hydrogen than the hydrogen gives back! Pipe dream! Will never happen!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭Curly Judge


    Ask any of our experts, college professors, SEAI etc, they will all tell you hydrogen can only be regarded as an energy carrier and our hydrogen economy is possibly 50 years away. Check out the internet and you will see numerous people selling water for gas kits for engine conversions. I have been unable to find one manufacturer/supplier who will offer a money back guarantee or in fact tell you how to operate such a device, they are mostly referred to as hho kits,
    not to be mistaken with an electric kettle but they can actually boil water too?
    Do they work? none that I have bought but I have been foolish enough to part with my money for many such devices and some weeks later put in the skip.

    I became interested in the subject some three years ago after becoming an unemployed professional, something to pass the time with. At first I contacted most of our third level Institutes to be told I was mad, Hydrogen is very difficult, expensive and very dangerous to produce, energy required is much greater than the energy output. I began to experiment.
    The days become long when one is without a job and short of cash,
    I had nothing to loose and if the professors were correct possibly my life but as always I am like a dog with a bone.

    OK, here are some facts, Electrolysis of water is a lot easier than most believe, it just takes some low voltage electricity and some electrodes and of course an additive to make the water more electro conductive and I do not mean baking soda, it corrodes the electrodes.

    Two years on my 08 Mercedes C220 is a hydrogen hybrid, mpg was at most 48 on a long journey but with a 50 euro conversion achieves 60mpg within ten miles and within twenty miles will achieve 65-70mpg with more power.
    Experts will say the engine will blow but 60,000 miles later its running better than ever because its clean burning.
    There is an optimum energy input, any excess will result in waste and heat up such a device. I have one on my oil fired boiler and efficiency has improved by 16%. I simply use less oil and one litre of water per month.
    Let me put this in perspective, one litre of petrol currently will cost you one euro and fifty cent, this will also buy you 8kwh electricity and you can easily convert this into 2200 litres of a hydrogen/oxygen gas ( two thousand two hundred litres) is it any wonder the powers that be do not want this technology known. Testing on a Scania 420 has shown in excess of 20% improved fuel economy and I am now working on a highly efficient CHP which will provide heating and electricity for my home. Smart metering feed in tarrif is just ten cent a kw which will result in my fuel cost less than zero.Take the Prius Hybrid which has 27kw battery storage, the batteries are well capable of making hydrogen as the sole fuel for the engine and require recharge just once a week depending on mileage, The solutions are already known but the powers that be will tell you it simply cannot be done. Its about carbon tax and Revenue collection.
    A prominent TV personality once told me, if you were from silicone valley everyone would say you are a genius but because you are Irish you are talking rubbish. I can imagine some of the comments I will get here but I will provide evidence when the time is right. Hydrogen injection despite all claims does actually increase emissions because more fuel is being burned that would otherwise go out through the exhaust, emissions are reduced by better mpg. Hybrid conversions are a possible retro-fit solution for all existing petrol and diesel engines and home heating and with rising fuel cost, Will our Government eventually tax rainwater ?

    I wonder if taking all this with a pinch of salt would improve the performance?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,986 ✭✭✭philstar


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    A proper dry cell is more like EUR200-300. Its usually 7 SS plates with gaskets and fittings. Dry cells are fully enclosed, the electrical connections are outside of the water making them safer and more efficient.

    would you have a link/example of one of these


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,396 ✭✭✭✭Timmaay


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    - HHO injection operates like a catalyst, it affects the flame front speed and burning efficiency of the fuel. Petrol cars operate at approx 9% efficiency (25% in theory on the motor alone), any increase in this has a large affect on MPG.


    Hmm, From what I have read, HHO attempts to increase the combustion efficiency within the engine. The combustion efficiency is totally different to the engine or thermal efficiency which you refer to (which typically is 25% at best).

    What I was thought the whole way though my engineering degree was that combustion efficiency is usually 95-97% anyway! Ie 95% or so of the fuel is fully burnt in the engine. There exists many scams out there which market the ability to improve the combustion efficiency, and its very hard not to put this whole HHO thing in with them!

    You cannot realistically improve the engine efficiency anything above 40% at the very best, it can be done with the likes of large low rpm 2stroke diesel engines, but these are limited to use on ships etc! What the likes of Hybrids/modern low CO2 cars with stop/start etc are trying to achieve is a higher vehicle/trip efficiently, which as you said is low, usually never above 16/18%, and as low as 0% in traffic! How HHO could improve this efficiency I don't know!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    gpjordanf1 wrote: »
    ELectric is here, Hydrogen is a pipe dream.

    Also it takes more electricty to produce the hydrogen than the hydrogen gives back! Pipe dream! Will never happen!

    not at all, they can use solar or wind power to produce hydrogen

    (10 hrs to recharge an electric car...no thanks!!)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    fryup wrote: »
    not at all, they can use solar or wind power to produce hydrogen

    ?? So what?

    Doesn't make it any more efficient.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 867 ✭✭✭gpjordanf1


    fryup wrote: »
    not at all, they can use solar or wind power to produce hydrogen

    (10 hrs to recharge an electric car...no thanks!!)

    HA! WHat rubbish!

    You reckon 10 hrs to recharge a car, it would take a month of galeforce winds to produce enough electricity for on tank of hydrogen! Pathetic!

    Also thefast charge technology in electric cars is for a half charge in 20-30 mins and up to 6 - 8hr (overnight) for a full charge!

    Most car journeys are less than 50km's per day!

    Electric cars are not for everybody but they would suit alot of people!

    Also a full charge costs less than €2. I dont know about you but thats attractive right now!


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