Failte Ireland report on the Mayo Greenway

smacl · 31-01-2012 11:26am

TopCat01 wrote: »

Sometimes the cost/benefit is just better for lower cost projects, than one with all the bells and whistles required to satisfy that last 5% of users.

What originally attracted me to the amenity was a piece Dermuid Gavin did for the RTE, in which he was towing his kids. It does seem that this is a target market for the Greenway. I'd guess more than one in twenty users are towing trailers of some kind, and they constitute part of a larger family group, so I'd say your 5% is more like 25%.

I took a spill with my daughter in tow coming through one of the narrow cattle grids with long boarded sides. Nice bit of father and daughter road rash. Speaking to another father towing a younger kid later that evening, he had a similar experience. These are hazards that seriously detract from the amenity, and need a rethink. They don't present an obstacle to normal bikes, so if you didn't have kids in tow they're not an issue.

Yes, it's a good amenity and a first for the country, but it needs refinement to become a great amenity.

smacl · 31-01-2012 11:33am

yop wrote: »

And the spin around Glengarrif national park takes you from town to town does it? Not comparing like with like I am afraid.

Nope, but trying to organise a town to town trip on the greenway with young kids, staying at a different place each night, is a nightmare. The local hotels really need to get their collective act together on this, until they do, as a family break the town to town thing is a moot point. There was one offering like this, but it came out at more then twice the price of staying in Newport and cycling from there. A criticism which hopefully will be turned into an opportunity by some wily Mayomen.

TopCat01 · 31-01-2012 11:42am

Yeah, agreed on most of that smacl. I don't think it would cost a lot to make a few amendments to facilitate to towed trailers.

But other aspects, smooth tarmaced surfaces, two lanes, a pedestrial lane, no gates, no sharp turns, and 20/30m either side of the path, could increase the cost significantly, without attracting significant more people.

And even from this thread alone, you see differences in peoples opinion as to what it should include (smooth rolling tarmac v's bumpier single track (and yes, I know these could be alternate routes between a common destination)), but it just shows how hard it is to please everyone.

Chips Lovell · 31-01-2012 11:51am

I've had to card one person already for veering into personal abuse in this debate. Please keep it civil.

Thanks

hardCopy · 31-01-2012 11:52am

I was planning to head down to the Greenway with herself. Both of us would be on road bikes. How bumpy is the surface? Would we be wasting our time on road bikes?

smacl · 31-01-2012 11:59am

Nah, it's very fine gravel, which should be ok, like the stuff they use on flat felt roofs. If you're on slick 23s I'd recommend wider slightly coarser tryes, something like marathons. It's not particularly bumpy, but the going is slower than tarmac. Also plenty of options for renting hybrids down there.

TopCat01 · 31-01-2012 12:16pm

Yeah, you'll get away with road bikes (were a few on it when I was there), but you'd have a lot more comfort on a hybrid.

QueensGael · 31-01-2012 12:16pm

For those of you planning on a trip on the Greenway, this article from Catherine Mack in the IT travel mag might be helpful. It's mostly about electric bikes, but also lists bike hire places and things to do in the area.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/travel/2011/0716/1224300810503.html

As for the surface/gates/grids discussion, I'll hold my counsel until I actually try it out

hardCopy · 31-01-2012 12:28pm

smacl wrote: »

Nah, it's very fine gravel, which should be ok, like the stuff they use on flat felt roofs. If you're on slick 23s I'd recommend wider slightly coarser tryes, something like marathons. It's not particularly bumpy, but the going is slower than tarmac. Also plenty of options for renting hybrids down there.

Sweet, I'm on 25C Gatorskins, she'll be due new tyres anyway for Gaelforce so will get her something similarly robust.

clonmahon · 31-01-2012 12:29pm

Cecil Mor wrote: »

Sometimes I forget that bol@x's cycle bikes too.
If ye don't like it then bugger off back to France with yourself.

My, my don't you people have thin skins. Again this is just personally insulting. I repeat, the French cycleway in the video is a better class of amenity that the Great Western Greenway. Calling me a bollix and suggesting I go back to France will not change that. Deal with issue, play the ball, not the man.

Strangely enough I have moderated my criticism with several positive notes and praised both the GW Greenway and the people who developed it. But none of this seems to make any difference, it seems I am required to forget what I saw in France and just say isn't it a great cycleway. As I wrote earlier typically Irish, point out what is mediocre and you will be personally attacked.

Cecil Mor wrote: »

Ask any member of any hill walking club in this country what its like to deal with some land owners as regards accessing lands, rights of way, Greenways etc. This is at a completely different level compared to what our counterparts have to deal with in other European countries.

I have no doubt this is true, but this does not make the GW Greenway a world class cycle route, this simply proves that existing Irish law mitigates against the development of good cycleways. Perhaps it needs to be changed.

Cecil Mor wrote: »

Chip on your shoulder? You're the one claiming that my Country, and I therefore assume its citizens are master's of mediocrity!!! You've a chip the size of Mayo on your shoulder!
You want to know what mediocrity is? 17 friggin' kgs on a bike and pi*sing on about been unable to gather momentum on gentle climbs or struggling to lift your bike over wee gates. You Poor Pet!
You really have little to moan about:-/

There you go again, more personal attacks. Not only that but you are twisting some of my words and ignoring others. I made clear in an earlier post, that I am not attacking Mayo people. My point about mediocrity was about Ireland in general and not about Mayo.

All I am saying is that the Great Western Greenway is not as is claimed a "World Class Cycleway". It is second rate cycleway. I have provided links to video showing what I believe is a world class cycleway. The best you can come up in reply is calling me a bollix, saying I have chip on my shoulder and telling me to go back to France.

galwaycyclist · 31-01-2012 12:35pm

clonmahon wrote: »

What is really odd about all this is, we build a <snip> cycleway in Enda Kenny's constituency, it is a monster success and Kenny is a cyclist himself, and yet still there is no eureka moment. This is the kind of project we have the means, the skills and the resources needed to do and we now we have a pilot project that says it will pay for itself and still there is no sign of serious movement in the corridors of power. Truly the Irish body politic is ossified.

Unfortunately it appears that there was a "Eureka" moment - somebody got the inspired idea that we can mark cycle lanes in existing hard shoulders and call them "cycleways". And so this is what money is currently getting spent on.

It took ten years to get Fianna Fail and the Greens onside regarding cycling. It looks like we are in for a similar timeframe with Fine Gael and Labour.

clonmahon · 31-01-2012 12:43pm

yop wrote: »

If thats a personal attack then you need to get out a wee bit more

You wrote that I had a chip on my shoulder, in response to my criticism of the Greenway. This comment was clearly personal and in no way addressed the topic of the thread. You resorted to childish name calling rather than addressing the topic. My personal flaws of which there are many is not the topic of this thread.

Now you are telling me I need to get out more often, again my lack of a social life is not the topic of this thread. You have your opinions and I have mine. Why can I not disagree with your in this forum, without you responding with personal comments. Why if you think I am so off the wall and wrong do you not just demolish my arguments, why the name calling.

happytramp · 31-01-2012 12:50pm

Oh for heaven's sake. All this "you called me a name"....."NO, you called ME a name" stuff is ridiculous.

clonmahon · 31-01-2012 1:33pm

yop wrote: »

I would ask where you live and how the cycle ways are doing there?

I live in Cavan and the cycleways here are non existent. The only cyclelane in the whole county is about half a mile of hard shoulder on the Dublin road into Cavan town. This was achieved with some different colored road surfacing and a bit of paint. So I will freely admit that Mayo's cycling infrastructure is absolutely fantastic compared to Cavan.

It would be very accurate to describe Cavan's cycling infrastructure as total crap. I long for the day when it might reach a mediocre standard.

Rob A. Bank · 31-01-2012 5:46pm

There is a lot more to cycling than speed and spandex !

I had a very enjoyable cycle/potter along the Mayo Greenway on a fine day last year and would recommend it to anyone.

The only pity is the lack of cycleways along all the other disused relics of Victorian railway engineering as shown on this map http://www.downrail.co.uk/history/photos/Map_Rail_Ireland_Viceregal_Commission_1906.jpg
(click to enlarge)

Imagine cycling the old West Clare Railway or to Clifden, Burtonport, Carndonagh, Schull or the Kerry peninsulas on old railways/greenways/cycleways !

emtroche · 31-01-2012 6:14pm

Damned if you do, damned if you don't!

smacl · 31-01-2012 6:36pm

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

The only pity is the lack of cycleways along all the other disused relics of Victorian railway engineering as shown on this map http://www.downrail.co.uk/history/photos/Map_Rail_Ireland_Viceregal_Commission_1906.jpg
(click to enlarge)

Imagine cycling the old West Clare Railway or to Clifden, Burtonport, Carndonagh, Schull or the Kerry peninsulas on old railways/greenways/cycleways !

Certainly a great source of cycling infrastructure and potential for tourism. They were doing something similar around Tinahely / Shillelagh last summer. Don't know if it's read yet, but if not it must be close, although it's quite short. It would be interesting to see how much of the land is publicly owned. There's also much more recently closed tracks, such as the Rosslare / Wellingtonbridge / Waterford run that could be viable.

Milan Cobian · 01-02-2012 1:06am

Many canals and rivers are ripe for this kind of treatment. I believe the tow paths along our canals are owned by Waterways Ireland so no access issues and the canals run through some beautiful and remote countryside. A cycle-width tarmac track would not be a major engineering challenge and it would undoubtedly attract many tourists. Ah what might have been with vision...
Instead we spend money on a motorway between Athenry and Tuam, villages with about 3,000 people each... Maybe they can sell that abroad as an attraction, "come to Ireland to view the only inter-village motorway in Europe"!

monument · 01-02-2012 1:13am

As others have said, I'll hold off commenting on the route without seeing it, but...

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

There is a lot more to cycling than speed and spandex !

What is it with this excuse? We can't provide high-quality cycle lanes because they only benefit fast cyclists in "spandex"? Where on earth do people get these ideas?

The Dutch and Danish seem to be able to design and built high quality infrastructure, and it's not for cyclists in "spandex".

Stereomaniac · 01-02-2012 1:18am

I think people on here probably dip in and out of these forums with a passing interest in cycling and are amazed to see how there's so many people who are a lot more passionate about it than they are. Typical of many people in this country, we can feel threatened or inadequate when someone knows more than us about a certain subject. Anyway, I cycle for relaxation.

Zippe · 01-02-2012 1:40am

I was just looking and came across this thread, I can't see why anyone would take so much time to talk about the green way if it's so crap,I use this for cycling with my kids as that's what it's for,it's safe no speeding cars(maybe someone trying to speed on a bike :-} ) but on a normal day its safe,if you are a race rider it don't say much if you picked this green way to go speeding/racing on,it will not suit the road Tyres as much as a mtb or atb,that said I have cycled it on my road bike few times,but more suited to a mtb or hybrid or atb style bike's,this green way comes through our land and just to let you know no one got paid for the land,we gave it up free for people to use 364 day a year,I think we do have the right to close it for 1 day per year to keep our right's to the land,I don't think there is too many people out there that will hold that against us as land owners,the bit of green way that was missing on the way into Newport will be in place over next few from what is been said weeks as the new road held that bit up,it is great for the town's around it as it brings people to the area to try it out,there is a big up take in cycling by older people that has not cycled for years and now they have a chance to cycle in a safe place again,also there is a big amount of people that come from bigger towns,city's to cycle and not have to worry about cars and get a chance to see the country side,if they do stop to open a gate they will get a chance to see more,like all things it's not for everyone but the green way is for most,this is great for cycling,running and walking and it's free,and everyone is WELCOME to use it even the hight speed wheelers,

Enjoy the west zip,

monument · 01-02-2012 2:21am

The posters who are complaining are doing so because they care about cycling and somd also care about the development of cycling in this country.

If the council and everybody else involved really want world-class cycle routes in Mayo, then they would take the constructive criticism on board and try fix what people think are problems.

That's only if everybody involved wants to get the max possable out of the route. To put it another way: Are you looking to do quality which will attract the most amount of tourists and leasure users? Then take the feedback on board.

If every involved is fine with the way it and does not care about feedback, then please try not to oversell it as world class if it is not world class -- some people will just feel cheated.

kippy · 01-02-2012 2:32am

monument wrote: »

The posters who are complaining are doing so because they care about cycling and somd also care about the development of cycling in this country.

If the council and everybody else involved really want world-class cycle routes in Mayo, then they would take the constructive criticism on board and try fix what people think are problems.

That's only if everybody involved wants to get the max possable out of the route. To put it another way: Are you looking to do quality which will attract the most amount of tourists and leasure users? Then take the feedback on board.

If every involved is fine with the way it and does not care about feedback, then please try not to oversell it as world class if it is not world class -- some people will just feel cheated.

The thing is, you have got to start somewhere.

Ultimately this project got off the ground for a few reasons.
1. A relatively cheap "foundation" already there - the railway hadnt been used in years and was ideal for this type of thing.
2. The co-operation of a large number of bodies.
3. The realisation that to get this done on budget, on time and ensure it meets the requirements of the MAJORITY of those who will be using it as well as the requirements of local landowners/farmers etc, would mean making a few "adjustments".

This isn't Holland, or Denmark or any other European country. It is Ireland. Indeed it is the West of Ireland. How would you have proposed getting an almost 100% safe, dedicated cycle path from Westport to Achill completed in the same timescale and budget, taking into account the same local needs as well as what you expect from such a piece of infrastructure?

This is designed for the family, the couple, who want to take a "LEISURELY" cycle while taking in some fantastic views. They might rent a bike, they may stop in numerous locations along they way.

There is scope to "improve" this route, indeed improvements are taking place along sections of it at the moment (and into the future) but you got to start somewhere.

This feasibility report (I havent read it, basing opinion on what you have said) has shown that there is a "market" for this exact type of amenity, in the state it is in however poorly some may think it is. Even the reaction of people on this thread of people saying they have done it and plan doing it again show it is fit for purpose.

The road is there for anyone/everyone who cannot or does not want to use the cyclepath.

We have massive potential all across the country for this type of thing and indeed some lessons can be learned from this but this is a great facility for the area and one which has many positive connotations for years to come.

mcgratheoin · 01-02-2012 7:51am

kippy wrote:

This isn't Holland, or Denmark or any other European country. It is Ireland. Indeed it is the West of Ireland. How would you have proposed getting an almost 100% safe, dedicated cycle path from Westport to Achill completed in the same timescale and budget, taking into account the same local needs as well as what you expect from such a piece of infrastructure?

To be fair, this is what the OP was complaining about originally - why do we have to preface our defence of the cycle path with stating that this is Ireland, not a country where they have better facilities, so we should just be happy with what we get. It's a particularly Irish attitude to respond to mediocrity with a fatalistic sort of "Sure this is Ireland, aren't we doing well to have anything"

Nobody (bar the OP who later recanted) is saying that the cycle path is crap - I think it's fantastic to see this sort of facility, and I completely agree that without the compromises mentioned then it may not have been built at all. If I can paraphrase Eamon Dunphy, it's a good cycle path, but not a great cycle path.

I would hope though that lessons can be learned from this project and applied to similar cycle paths around the country. Off the top of my head, there are 2 disused railways leaving Waterford City - to Dungarvan and to New Ross, plus the Wellington Bridge/Rosslare line and if the approach used in Mayo was applied to these, then we could begin to construct a serious cycling infrastructure in this country.

galwaycyclist · 01-02-2012 8:36am

mcgratheoin wrote: »

To be fair, this is what the OP was complaining about originally - why do we have to preface our defence of the cycle path with stating that this is Ireland, not a country where they have better facilities, so we should just be happy with what we get. It's a particularly Irish attitude to respond to mediocrity with a fatalistic sort of "Sure this is Ireland, aren't we doing well to have anything"

I don't think the problem is fatalism. My interpretation is that in post-colonial Ireland some people see themselves as the rightful inheritors of the power stuctures behind "the big house". For that to " work" other people are supposed to take on the role of the grovelling peasants - grateful for any condenscending titbits cast from the masters table.

The peasants aren't supposed to question the actions of their betters. This might best explain the demonstrable and wholly unreasonable "rage" that some people react with when the peasants start asking reasonable questions and making reasonable comparisons with practice elsewhere.

smacl · 01-02-2012 10:13am

kippy wrote: »

Even the reaction of people on this thread of people saying they have done it and plan doing it again show it is fit for purpose.

The road is there for anyone/everyone who cannot or does not want to use the cyclepath.

A good post apart from the above, which reads like "we did our best, some people like, if you don't like if you can f**k off back down the road from whence you came". Not exactly how to sell a nascent tourist facility when faced with constructive criticism, now is it?

This is a good amenity that suffers from some very poor design decisions, and needs be refined to become a great amenity. I'm at a loss to understand why any of the gate / narrow cattle grid combos are required on the route. Surely, you simply fence off the fields and put the gates into those fences. Seems to work well enough for the roads, and would have been cheaper to build. Riding the route gives the impression that some local construction firm was making a swift buck installing a rake of unnecessary cattle grid / gate combos.

As the first tourist amenity of this kind in the country, the green way needs to be great rather than just good in order to generate the required demand for the model is to be repeated elsewhere. For any of you that haven't cycled it for a family break, I'd urge you to give it a go to help this happen.

Chips Lovell · 01-02-2012 11:18am

smacl wrote: »

I'm at a loss to understand why any of the gate / narrow cattle grid combos are required on the route. Surely, you simply fence off the fields and put the gates into those fences.

Because the thing was constructed with the agreement of local landowners. Much of it is built on their land.

schemingbohemia · 01-02-2012 11:29am

Firstly, I haven't used this facility so can't comment on the specifics of it.

Secondly, whilst people are bemoaning the "sure it's Ireland, we don't do anything world-class" the facts are that our Constitution provides an insane level of protection for private property which makes the solution used here the most sensible one to use - that is getting agreement and allowing cattle grids/kissing gates to remain in situ.

It's funny though that the same protections weren't given to the original owners of the railway (or the State it's inheritor) so that over the years local farmers/people were able to encroach on the land to use for their own purposes and now ignore those same rules to claim their own rights by closing the land 1 day of the year.

France and the Netherlands allow for a much greater consideration of the common good rather than personal greed. Some Republic we are? So change the Constitution and then we will be able to provide infrastructure for the common good. In the meantime this is the best solution possible.

Chips Lovell · 01-02-2012 11:32am

schemingbohemia wrote: »

It's funny though that the same protections weren't given to the original owners of the railway (or the State it's inheritor) so that over the years local farmers/people were able to encroach on the land to use for their own purposes and now ignore those same rules to claim their own rights by closing the land 1 day of the year.

What are you talking about? The land was sold to local people by CIE after the railway closed in 1937

kippy · 01-02-2012 11:32am

mcgratheoin wrote: »

To be fair, this is what the OP was complaining about originally - why do we have to preface our defence of the cycle path with stating that this is Ireland, not a country where they have better facilities, so we should just be happy with what we get. It's a particularly Irish attitude to respond to mediocrity with a fatalistic sort of "Sure this is Ireland, aren't we doing well to have anything"

Nobody (bar the OP who later recanted) is saying that the cycle path is crap - I think it's fantastic to see this sort of facility, and I completely agree that without the compromises mentioned then it may not have been built at all. If I can paraphrase Eamon Dunphy, it's a good cycle path, but not a great cycle path.

I would hope though that lessons can be learned from this project and applied to similar cycle paths around the country. Off the top of my head, there are 2 disused railways leaving Waterford City - to Dungarvan and to New Ross, plus the Wellington Bridge/Rosslare line and if the approach used in Mayo was applied to these, then we could begin to construct a serious cycling infrastructure in this country.

You've (and indeed a few more , from reading the replies since) have completely missed my point.
Ireland, and the West of Ireland in particular, are nothing like Holland, Denmark (thankfully so for a number of factors) or any other country, both in terms of landscape, people and tradition - hence comparing amenities there with here and indeed the means in which they are implemented not the most intelligent thing to do.

Failte Ireland report on the Mayo Greenway

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