Pepper Spray

coylemj · 28-01-2012 03:30PM

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

There has been a lot of robberies lately in this area

Can I ask how you know this? You didn't by any chance hear it from a door to door saleslady flogging a well known brand of monitored alarm?

benway · 28-01-2012 03:48PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Actually it isn't. It's just not a common thing but it has been done.

.... in the movies.

Not for one moment saying that awful crimes aren't committed week-in, week-out, but the disproportionate media focus on the more extreme examples operates on the brain's heuristic biases, leading to a perception that serious crime is more prevalent than it actually is.

Simply put, the extreme stories stick in the mind, which, coupled with the fact that extreme stories are granted media coverage disproportionate to the number of actual instances, leads us to believe that the world is fast descending into anarchy.

http://ejc.sagepub.com/content/14/2/191.short

This is before even starting on Hollywood fantasies.

Corruptable · 28-01-2012 06:15PM

Statistics can show whatever you want them to show, and claims that the threat is greatly exaggerated may make it easier for you to sleep at night but it's all irrelevant until you become the victim of crime and have to live with the fear day in day out.

The truth is I think there's a huge difference of opinion between rural dwellers and city dwellers on this issue. If you live circa 20 miles from the nearest Garda station, like many people like Nally do, you'll appreciate the fear. My own uncle, an elderly farmer, was robbed with a knife through his throat in his own home a few years ago, yet after he admitted going for the firearm he keeps after he broke free from his attackers, the gardai confiscated that weapon and it's still not given back two years later.

It is my view, and your entitled to disagree, that the laws with regard to this issue are not up to date with the view of the people who live within them. In the last two months, two robberies in the same area involving aggravated burglary (i.e.: being tied up at knife point, allegedly committed by foreign nationals who many believe just have to hop on the boat and disappear if in fear of being caught) are enough to convince me that not enough protection is available to home owners.

So, I'm sorry but while I used to have a liberal viewpoint like yourself on these issues, my view now is generally based more guards, more prisons, longer sentences, and more guns rather than the waffle emanating from academics, judges, and counsel who don't live in the real world.

benway · 28-01-2012 06:24PM

Ha, I think you'll find that it's the Daily Mail hang 'em high brigade who aren't living in the real world, much as they like to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being out of touch. You know, people who look at verifiable facts and figures, and scientific research to form their views, rather than supposition and prejudice.

If you find an intruder in your house who seems to be set on robbing the place, you have ... and have always had ... the right to use sufficient force to subdue him/her. What more do you need?

You don't, and shouldn't have the right to kill the intruder in cold blood: “it is ridiculous to suggest that a private citizen, however outraged, may deliberately kill [a burglar] simply for being a burglar”.

What exactly are you suggesting? More laws?

I have been the victim of crime, btw, but I accept it as an isolated, relatively unusual occurrence and get on with my life. I still take every reasonable precaution, but beyond that I don't worry unduly.

Don Booker · 28-01-2012 06:30PM

I have a friend recently made redundant. He bought a wood lathe and is now selling top quality varnished base-ball bats to people. His small handheld one originally designed for children is his top-seller. He lathes each piece himself.
Full length bat is €75
Small bat is €55
He also does personal carvings on them for extra. He's opening a website shortly. Least someone hasn't given up.

Don't like pepper spray since i seen that cop in New York doing the students with it. That's not right!

Hobbitfeet · 28-01-2012 06:46PM

coylemj wrote: »

Can I ask how you know this? You didn't by any chance hear it from a door to door saleslady flogging a well known brand of monitored alarm?

No heard from neighbours and it was also in the local paper 2 houses broken into in the estate I live in.
Have seen the Guards drive around the estate at least once a day the past week so at least they are doing something

benway · 28-01-2012 06:59PM

Hey OP, I think what I'm trying to say is that I don't think you should let the fear of crime rule your life. Obviously you should take every precaution to secure your home, maybe even get a dog. But once you've done that, there's no point in worrying further. Easier said than done, I know.

Personally, I don't see the point in bringing weapons into your home, I don't think they'll make you any safer. And hopefully, probably, you'll never need to use them.

syklops · 28-01-2012 07:04PM

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Thanks Zambia, there is locks on all the doors and windows. Seem safe enough we are in rented house so it would be up to landlord to upgrade them if he wanted.
Its my 1st baby and I'm just starting to worry about crazy things like this happening. There has been some robberies where people are pretending to be from council etc to get you to open the door.

With rented properties, the number one risk is other people(than you) having the key to your home. Previous tenants, the landlord, the estate agent and who knows who else? I lived next door to a house that got wiped out of stuff just after the new tenants had moved in. Suspicion fell on the previous tenant, but there was no proof. They moved in, he moved out and one day while they were all at work someone went into their house and took laptops, cameras, TV, the lot.

I'd advise getting a locksmith out to replace the lock with a brand new one. Also get his advice on general security in the property as well.

For personal security get a decent sized hurley to wave about. In a pinch, a can of deodorant would do the same job as pepper spray, but its purchase or ownership is not illegal. Though as stated by others it buys minutes only and not much else. Also consider getting a dog. Doesn't need to be a Doberman, but most intruders will be put off by the presence of a dog. Plus, apparently, they can be beneficial, health-wise to new borns.

Corruptable · 28-01-2012 07:04PM

benway wrote: »

Ha, I think you'll find that it's the Daily Mail hang 'em high brigade who aren't living in the real world, much as they like to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being out of touch. You know, people who look at verifiable facts and figures, and scientific research to form their views, rather than supposition and prejudice.

If you find an intruder in your house who seems to be set on robbing the place, you have ... and have always had ... the right to use sufficient force to subdue him/her. What more do you need?

You don't, and shouldn't have the right to kill the intruder in cold blood: “it is ridiculous to suggest that a private citizen, however outraged, may deliberately kill [a burglar] simply for being a burglar”.

What exactly are you suggesting? More laws?

I have been the victim of crime, btw, but I accept it as an isolated, relatively unusual occurrence and get on with my life. I still take every reasonable precaution, but beyond that I don't worry unduly.

I'm suggesting reform of the law which would widen the means of reasonable force available to the householder. Unlike a decade or two ago, there are now less-than-lethal weapons abundantly available which our legislation, unlike that of France and Germany, does not make account for in a home owners possession.

These items are as mentioned include non-lethal firearms such as genuine Taser Internationa Inc. products, rubber projectiles a la the Verney Carron flash ball products, and pepper spray which can be legislated for and which training and regulation standards could be provided, for those who wish to keep such items. Usual rules could be applied relating to storage in a standard gun safe, etc.

I think that if the options were available it would be something which could prevent or limit the likelihood of the occurrence of more Nally-type incidents involving lethal force. The reasonable force standards can still apply, and in fact I would argue would be more easily quantifiable given research into the effects of such items than that excecised by the metal pipe which happens to be "found" and used in the heat of the moment.

But there's a whole range of issues relating to intent and possession which would need to be reformed.

benway · 28-01-2012 07:10PM

Would that not lead to an arms race between home-owners and housebreakers? And increase the likelihood of heavily armed burglars being quicker to use lethal force themselves?

Do you not think that maybe a Garda-facilitated community policing initiative, like a beefed-up neighbourhood watch might be a better approach? Putting neighbours in touch with each other and encouraging them to watch each other's backs? And giving them a point of reference within the Gardaí to whom they could report any suspicious activity?

Discodog · 28-01-2012 07:16PM

The key to this is to only have items for self defence that have another lawful purpose. If you want pepper spray then make your own. I am sure there are directions on the net. Put it in a spray bottle & label it "barbecue seasoning".

One of the best items is a propane flame gun for weeds. They are also used for lighting fires & barbecues. They light instantly & produce a long hot flame. Someone would have to be seriously stupid to try disarming you :eek: Then there is the infamous long maglite torch - the joke has always been that you shine it in their eyes to blind them then hit them with it

The point is that if you incinerate a burglar you can at least argue that you grabbed the first thing that came to hand. It happened to be a flame gun as you bought it in to light a fire in the hearth.

I actually know an old fella who has a can of lighter fuel & a lighter next to his back door :eek: Any thief who finds himself covered in petrol is going to run.

syklops · 28-01-2012 07:32PM

benway wrote: »

Would that not lead to an arms race between home-owners and housebreakers? And increase the likelihood of heavily armed burglars being quicker to use lethal force themselves?

Do you not think that maybe a Garda-facilitated community policing initiative, like a beefed-up neighbourhood watch might be a better approach? Putting neighbours in touch with each other and encouraging them to watch each other's backs? And giving them a point of reference within the Gardaí to whom they could report any suspicious activity?

If the vast majority of burglars were arming themselves up to intentionally break in to houses they knew people were in, then I suppose an arms race situation could occur, but the vast majority of burglars look for empty properties and flee at the sign of anyone else.

The problem with the beefed up neighbourhood watch scheme, is when it is 1 AM and there has been a bump in the night, being able to grab your weapon of choice is a lot more comforting than holding the slip of paper with the neighbourhood watches number.

Plus NHW works great in sub-urban areas, where everyone has a picket fence and a neighbour 40 feet away. but in rural areas, they are very difficult to implement and run well.

Procrastastudy · 28-01-2012 08:49PM

I really don't see the logic... in fact the advice you are giving (esp to the OP a heavily pregnant woman!) is simply irresponsible. If a bugler does break in and isn't put off by the fact you're there the best thing to do is comply with their demands and get it over with as soon as possible - then claim on your insurance.

If they do break in and she (or anyone else) sprays/sets fire to them/any other of the stupid suggestions (except maybe the dog) they are as likely to lash out and injure!

You only need to look at the US to see what happens when a "frontier" mentality is combined with a sensationalist media. If you're a "big lad" and want to "have a go" more power to you but please do try and remember things and can be replaced!

Spending time on building a community and looking out for each other is much more likely to keep the bad guys away than stashing weapons about the place on the off chance you're broken into.

benway · 28-01-2012 09:42PM

syklops wrote: »

If the vast majority of burglars were arming themselves up to intentionally break in to houses they knew people were in, then I suppose an arms race situation could occur, but the vast majority of burglars look for empty properties and flee at the sign of anyone else.

By that rate wouldn't a burglar alarm, timed lights, a dog, neighbours checking in and such be more effective that any amount of weapons, lethal or non-lethal?

End of the day, any weapon is only useful if it's to hand, if the intruder doesn't beat you to the punch, and if you're collected enough to use it effectively.

This idea that we should all be sitting at home alone, armed to the teeth, atomised, suspicious and terrified has a definite ideological overtone to it, if you ask me.

29-01-2012 12:26AM

I keep a fully loaded airsoft shotgun. Looks very realistic, and will hurt if fired at point blank range at bare skin/thin clothing. Also doubles up as a baton as the barrel is a steel pole.

Something like this.
http://www.mainirishairsoft.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=957

Also keep a hammer close by for backup

Completely legal.

Edit:
Also have these on both front and read doors. http://www.maplin.co.uk/security-beam-barrier-alarm-31800

krd · 29-01-2012 12:43AM

benway wrote: »

If you find an intruder in your house who seems to be set on robbing the place, you have ... and have always had ... the right to use sufficient force to subdue him/her. What more do you need?

You don't, and shouldn't have the right to kill the intruder in cold blood: “it is ridiculous to suggest that a private citizen, however outraged, may deliberately kill [a burglar] simply for being a burglar”.

What is sufficient force? I do know someone, who came home early from a family get together in a pub. When they entered their house, there were two of their neighbours in the living room. One with a hurley, the other with a wrench. And they gave him a savage beating, and left him for dead. It was purely luck that none of the blows killed him. He was left with scars all over his head and face.

The kind of people who break into houses are usually violent scumbags. They've learned boxing in boxing clubs for scaldy kids - they've been thugs their whole lives. They're a lot more used to violence than the peoples houses their breaking.

What's reasonable force? There was a case years ago, where a man in Dublin chased burglars out of his house with a golf club. One of the burglars took the golf club off the man and beat him to death.

If burglars enter your house and you confront them. If you're armed you hit them as fast as possible, and as hard as possible, and you keep going until they are not moving - otherwise they'll likely take the weapon from you and beat you to death.

It's unfortunate, if subduing them means killing them. But what can you do. Are home owners meant to go on courses where they learn how to subdue burglars without killing them.

I have been the victim of crime, btw, but I accept it as an isolated, relatively unusual occurrence and get on with my life. I still take every reasonable precaution, but beyond that I don't worry unduly.

After seeing what burglars did to the guy I knew, my attitude completely changed. If someone breaks into my house, I will use the maximum violence available. Using minimum force could result in me being beaten to death or maimed for life.

Threatening these people with a golf club will do you no good. They know their violence. They'll know you're scared and will have grab the club off you and will be wearing it off your head. Don't give them a chance, beat them as hard as you can and don't stop until they stop moving. And then put a kitchen knife in one of their hands and wait for the gaurds to come.

benway · 29-01-2012 12:56AM

krd wrote: »

The kind of people who break into houses are usually violent scumbags. They've learned boxing in boxing clubs for scaldy kids - they've been thugs their whole lives. They're a lot more used to violence than the peoples houses their breaking.

Threatening these people with a golf club will do you no good. They know their violence. They'll know you're scared and will have grab the club off you and will be wearing it off your head.

Which is why it's probably a bad idea for people who have no idea what they're doing to attempt to take on a burglar in a physical confrontation, even if they are armed - better to tell them to take what they want and get out, or barricade yourself into a bedroom until they're gone.

Reasonable force means whatever is necessary to subdue the intruder. Anything up to and including shooting or stabbing them may be justifiable depending on the circumstances.

Point I was making is that standing over someone who's already been put down by a shotgun and unloading the second barrel into them doesn't count as reasonable force to me - some people seem to think that the new Act gives carte blanche for homeowners to kill intruders, which is not true.

Witcher · 29-01-2012 01:02AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I keep a fully loaded airsoft shotgun. Looks very realistic, and will hurt if fired at point blank range at bare skin/thin clothing. Also doubles up as a baton as the barrel is a steel pole.

Something like this.
http://www.mainirishairsoft.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=957

Also keep a hammer close by for backup

Completely legal.

An airsoft gun for defence? Jesus christ it wouldn't even put a bruise on ya, that's from someone who has played airsoft for 4 years and has 10+ airsoft guns.

People looking to have pepper spray/stun guns/batons etc. are putting themselves in line for a conviction, if they're used on a burglar the guards aren't going to say 'ah sure grand' they're going to do you for having them when you shouldn't. If you must have something for defence at least make sure it's legal to possess, what you do with it after that is up to you.

Pkiernan · 29-01-2012 07:02AM

Blay wrote: »

An airsoft gun for defence? Jesus christ it wouldn't even put a bruise on ya, that's from someone who has played airsoft for 4 years and has 10+ airsoft guns.

People looking to have pepper spray/stun guns/batons etc. are putting themselves in line for a conviction, if they're used on a burglar the guards aren't going to say 'ah sure grand' they're going to do you for having them when you shouldn't. If you must have something for defence at least make sure it's legal to possess, what you do with it after that is up to you.

~I will see your stupid plastic pellet gun and raise you a

Zambia · 29-01-2012 12:51PM

Once upon a time I knew a guy who had a very powerful paintball gun. We fired it at a plasterboard door and it went straight through one panel.

Not in Ireland.

29-01-2012 02:35PM

Blay wrote: »

An airsoft gun for defence? Jesus christ it wouldn't even put a bruise on ya, that's from someone who has played airsoft for 4 years and has 10+ airsoft guns.

Not just for defense, I use it for airsoft, as well as an aeg.

As for bruise. I would have to disagree. I won't draw blood, but it does hurt!

Anytime I'm hit at close range, it will leave a mark. I have seen a -legal- gun leave a nasty bruise/lump on someones temple (shot from couple of feet away).

neilthefunkeone · 29-01-2012 02:45PM

If you burst out your front door holding any airsoft gun pants will be sh@t!!!!

:D

I have a little can of pepper spray i picked up in Andorra a few years ago.. Not sure on the life of them.. If anything it will confuse and slow down anyone coming at you..

Also have an airsoft handgun.. Looks the business in my mind!

Procrastastudy · 29-01-2012 02:48PM

While I have made my opinion on this clear I thought I'd relay a story as the thread has now gone completely off topic.

When I managed a shop on Henry St a junkie tried to vault the counter. The security guard had obviously seen what was about to happen and decided that it would be much more reasonable and less effort to allow the momentum of the junkie to carry himself into his fist mid-flight.

After grabbing said junkie and sticking him in the stairwell for the Garda to arrive the security guard briefly let go of him to put gloves on... I wasn't touching him for obvious reasons (I'm all for helping my fellow man but this guy put himself in this position) I was just there as a witness. Next thing I know the guy has rolled himself down the stairs. Security guard goes down to pick him up. I'm there thinking "we're buggered when the cops get here they're never gonna believe this".

Mr Garda arrives literally lifts him off his feet and slams him into the wall with word to the effect of "I'm fed up dealing with you - you always get caught" - and into the van he went. Never saw the poor sod again although I do sometime wonder to myself if he was the one who lifted about €6k of gear out of the van that the cluchie driver had left open on Henry st.

I do miss city centre retail...

Del2005 · 29-01-2012 10:30PM

Victor wrote: »

This is an urban myth.

Tell that to person I know who had a boiling kettle held over their looking for car keys.

The best defence is to keep the scum out. Once there in its too late as every home is full of things people can use as a weapon.

LH2011 · 29-01-2012 11:51PM

a 10kg dry powder extinguisher, is handy to have close at hand, shoots a fair distance , and once cracked open, keeps going until empty.

id say if you got that in the eyes / face it would hurt like hell.. and perfectly legal to have lying around.

best not to confront if you can retreat into a safe place, not worth taking the risk , as you never know what they are carrying,

LH2011 · 29-01-2012 11:57PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Also keep a hammer close by for backup

Completely legal.

not a good idea to have something that can be taken off you and used against you, also you have to be really close when swinging a hammer..
not a good idea.

best to keep a bit of distance between you and the intruder. what would Chuck Norris do,,,

benway · 30-01-2012 12:16AM

Was just gonna say ... you know the way that in the movies the plucky underdog hero can always defeat the evil villain with a combination of quick wits and their fists?

Real life isn't like that. At all.

LH2011 · 30-01-2012 12:19AM

benway wrote: »

Was just gonna say ... you know the way that in the movies the plucky underdog hero can always defeat the evil villain with a combination of quick wits and their fists?

Real life isn't like that. At all.

thats exactly it... no point getting in harms way, when you dont know what you are facing.

fletch... · 30-01-2012 01:12AM

Reading trough this thread made me think a bit, most people will Crap themselvs when the time happens.
Never mind bats, or sprays. lets stay legal here, most people have a glass or jug of water beside theyr bed. If said intruder gets past the dog, throw the cold water in his face the smash him over the head with the jug, followd by a good shove down the stairs.

Or take your lamp shade, you know your room lay out - he doesent, dark room tell him to f off, if he enters the room then like a whip smack him across the face with the lamp plug. Throw your keys to him, natural reaction is to catch it. then boot him down the stairs. See - no need for geting yourself in crap for using un necessary weapons.
A camera flash could also blind him, but mite make him more determined to get in and claim back the evidence.

Just talking sence here - this is what we like to think we would do in a situation, when it happens its a different story. I work in security, my dad used to work in security, was robbed - they steppd over the sleeping German Shepard, badly beet/stabbed my dad, took what they wanted, left. Came back a couple days later and robbed the dog.

Just dropping a reality check guys, yes we have rights to defend ourselfs but it doesnt change a thing. dont get yourselfs locked up for battering an idiot with a pick axe handle

deadwood · 30-01-2012 12:22PM

fletch... wrote: »

Reading trough this thread made me think a bit, most people will Crap themselvs when the time happens.
Never mind bats, or sprays. lets stay legal here, most people have a glass or jug of water beside theyr bed. If said intruder gets past the dog, throw the cold water in his face the smash him over the head with the jug, followd by a good shove down the stairs.

Or take your lamp shade, you know your room lay out - he doesent, dark room tell him to f off, if he enters the room then like a whip smack him across the face with the lamp plug. Throw your keys to him, natural reaction is to catch it. then boot him down the stairs. See - no need for geting yourself in crap for using un necessary weapons.
A camera flash could also blind him, but mite make him more determined to get in and claim back the evidence.

Sounds like the next Macauley Culkin Home Alone plot!

Pepper Spray

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