Why the constant need to protest?

Mr.Biscuits · 23-01-2012 04:43PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

This thread is sort of an accompaniment to my other recession related thread. This time I’m curious about why people are so intent of refusing to accept any and all measures brought in by the government to tackle the current crisis. No-one likes cuts and taxes I know and people are struggling but surely point blank refusing to even consider the benefits of the governments plans won’t do anyone favours?

So why the constant protesting? Are we really in such dire straights or is there a certain amount of ‘not in my back yard’ style protesting going on? Or to put it another way do you think all those protesting really are struggling (I don’t doubt some of them are btw) or are there those who really could handle the cuts and taxes but simply refuse to do so.

And in the case of those just won’t pay tax or take a cut even though they probably could afford to do so is it a lack of trust in the government, genuinely not agreeing with cuts/taxes or as above , a simple case of ‘not in my back yard’/ tax/cut only what doesn’t affect me personally?

Thread protest!

AudreyHepburn · 23-01-2012 04:46PM

seamus wrote: »

The problem is that the majority of protests thus far have one of two messages

1. Don't tax me, tax someone else
2. Screw the banks

Neither of which will solve our current financial problem where we spend more than we take in.

My point exactly.

I have no problem with anyone protesting and I know there are people genuinely struggling. I am not trying to atagonise or offend anyone.

But I fail to see how anyone can expect change when they complain, as above, about everything the government do.

I do know however that I'm lucky to live at home and that I probably have a cushy lifestyle compared to the vast majority of the country, so maybe I should just keep my mouth shut?

Bannasidhe · 23-01-2012 04:48PM

Attabear wrote: »

I'm protesting against procrastination, next Wednesday week.

I'll make a note of that in a minute.

My name is URL · 23-01-2012 04:53PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

My point exactly.

I have no problem with anyone protesting and I know there are people genuinely struggling. I am not trying to atagonise or offend anyone.

But I fail to see how anyone can expect change when they complain, as above, about everything the government do.

I do know however that I'm lucky to live at home and that I probably have a cushy lifestyle compared to the vast majority of the country, so maybe I should just keep my mouth shut?

I think you're being a bit sententious. Walk a mile in somebody else's shoes and you might be the one protesting against whatever it is that they feel the need to protest over. You obviously don't feel any need to protest over anything, as demonstrated by many of your threads and posts here, but don't moralise to others why they are wrong or foolish to protest against stuff that they feel strongly about just because you're lucky enough to be in a position where you don't need to.

davet82 · 23-01-2012 04:54PM

I often wonder if the people that post 'we just should get on with it' have lost their job and/or are in danger of loosing their home?

Joshua Jones · 23-01-2012 04:54PM

I think that everyone is of the opinion that our current system is open to corruption and that our politicions lie on an almost daily basis. Some accept this as a fact of life others believe it is unacceptable.

On the one hand some people believe that this current system is broken and needs changing. Now what to change it to is hard to answer. Personally I'd prefer the ending of our current systems and a more organic structure to grow out of it. We do need change IMO but no one can tell the future. This is scary for some peoiple.

The other side would be more "better the devil you know". They realise all the faults but either have too much invested in this system or fear change which may affect their current position, which is understandable.

Economic growth is an illusion, it's actually economic expansion and contraction. The current financial crisis came as no surprise to the people in the know, in fact if you're aware of it you can make as much money in a recession as in expansion. History will show that if we're unwilling to change then we'll repeat our past mistakes. If we continue to try and resusitate this failed economic model then we'd better warn our children of the dangers they will face in 15-20 years time. Or we could take our future in our hands and decide for ourselves.

Now before anyone rage replies, this is the internet and I understand I am completely wrong.

Attabear · 23-01-2012 05:00PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I do know however that I'm lucky to live at home and that I probably have a cushy lifestyle compared to the vast majority of the country, so maybe I should just keep my mouth shut?

No, not at all, you're entitled to your opinion and to express it.
And people are also entitled to protest or not depending on their feelings on a given matter.

AudreyHepburn · 23-01-2012 05:19PM

My name is URL wrote: »

I think you're being a bit sententious. Walk a mile in somebody else's shoes and you might be the one protesting against whatever it is that they feel the need to protest over. You obviously don't feel any need to protest over anything, as demonstrated by many of your threads and posts here, but don't moralise to others why they are wrong or foolish to protest against stuff that they feel strongly about just because you're lucky enough to be in a position where you don't need to.

Attabear wrote: »

No, not at all, you're entitled to your opinion and to express it.
And people are also entitled to protest or not depending on their feelings on a given matter.

Look I'm not saying anyone is wrong to protest, I am under no illusions that there are many people on the breadline who cannot take any more cuts and taxes. I have no interested in moralising to anyone.

I'm sorry that I still live at home and have nothing to worry about, I'm sorry I have parents good enough to keep me as long as they have. It clearly bothers a lot of you and makes you think I don't have a clue.

Please don't insult me or make out I have no right to comment on the current situation.

I know you are all better than that.

Ghost Buster · 23-01-2012 05:19PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

My point exactly.

I have no problem with anyone protesting and I know there are people genuinely struggling. I am not trying to atagonise or offend anyone.

But I fail to see how anyone can expect change when they complain, as above, about everything the government do.

I do know however that I'm lucky to live at home and that I probably have a cushy lifestyle compared to the vast majority of the country, so maybe I should just keep my mouth shut?

What single group is protesting about absolutely everything the Govt are doing?
What i see are groups protesting about specifics which effect them personally.
This is understandable with the awareness that unlike many other countries in similar circumstances absolutely nobody has been brought to book over what was done to our economy, this is not our debt and our politicians and decision makers are still amongst the highest paid in their respective fields in a tiny country in economic crisis.
And yes seeing as you live at home perhaps you are not best qualified to judge.

AudreyHepburn · 23-01-2012 05:28PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

What single group is protesting about absolutely everything the Govt are doing?
What i see are groups protesting about specifics which effect them personally.
This is understandable with the awareness that unlike many other countries in similar circumstances absolutely nobody has been brought to book over what was done to our economy, this is not our debt and our politicians and decision makers are still amongst the highest paid in their respective fields in a tiny country in economic crisis.
And yes seeing as you live at home perhaps you are not best qualified to judge.

Fair enough, I suppose I do live in the lap of luxury compared to a lot of you on here.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, that really was not the intention.

Wattle · 23-01-2012 05:31PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Look I'm not saying anyone is wrong to protest, . I have no interested in moralising to anyone.

I'm sorry that I still live at home and have nothing to worry about, I'm sorry I have parents good enough to keep me as long as they have. It clearly bothers a lot of you and makes you think I don't have a clue.

Please don't insult me or make out I have no right to comment on the current situation.

I know you are all better than that.

Its just that you started the thread and now you seem to be backtracking and answering your own question:

'I am under no illusions that there are many people on the breadline who cannot take any more cuts and taxes'

Ghost Buster · 23-01-2012 05:34PM

Wattle wrote: »

Its just that you started the thread and now you seem to be backtracking and answering your own question:

'I am under no illusions that there are many people on the breadline who cannot take any more cuts and taxes'

Happens a lot with Audrey

AudreyHepburn · 23-01-2012 05:36PM

Wattle wrote: »

Its just that you started the thread and now you seem to be backtracking and answering your own question:

'I am under no illusions that there are many people on the breadline who cannot take any more cuts and taxes'

I'm not backtracking at all. Just acknowledging that I know there are those genuinely struggling.

But equally many aren't really that badly off, yet they pitch a fit every time a new cut or tax comes out and I am wondering why.

Do they genuinely disagree or is it a case of 'not in my back yard' or 'tax the rich only'?

Again sorry for any offense caused, I have clearly upset a lot of struggling people here.

Ghost Buster · 23-01-2012 05:40PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'm not backtracking at all. Just acknowledging that I know there are those genuinely struggling.

But equally many aren't really that badly off, yet they pitch a fit every time a new cut or tax comes out and I am wondering why.

Do they genuinely disagree or is it a case of 'not in my back yard' or 'tax the rich only'?

Again sorry for any offense caused, I have clearly upset a lot of struggling people here.

Some do some dont. This has zero bearing on the fairness of the taxes and cuts.
Its not our debt. Its a gambling debt of un secured bond holders.
We have a two tier system with state paid workers at the top.

ScumLord · 23-01-2012 06:09PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

My point exactly.

I have no problem with anyone protesting and I know there are people genuinely struggling. I am not trying to atagonise or offend anyone.

But I fail to see how anyone can expect change when they complain, as above, about everything the government do.

I'd agree with you, seeing people spend the day protesting then going home to watch the late late show as if they've changed the world is just pointless.

The Americans do protesting right, the protest is just the tip of the iceberg with the rest of it being building groups, educating people, lobbying the right people. It's an entire movement that comes together on one day to highlight their cause.

Irish protest marches are just a half arsed day out.

Dudess · 23-01-2012 06:14PM

What's kinda galling though is that a lot of the whingeing is from people who had absolutely no problem with conditions here when everything was booming (may even have voted FF) so from that angle, I know what the OP means. But there are a lot of angles to it. There are people being unjustly punished too.

And yes, taxes are viewed by some as "That doesn't benefit me, so I don't want to pay it - but others can no prob".

HellFireClub wrote: »

the selfish b*stards in the PS

Who are the selfish bastards in the PS?

Toby Take a Bow · 23-01-2012 06:22PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'm not backtracking at all. Just acknowledging that I know there are those genuinely struggling.

But equally many aren't really that badly off, yet they pitch a fit every time a new cut or tax comes out and I am wondering why.

Do they genuinely disagree or is it a case of 'not in my back yard' or 'tax the rich only'?

Again sorry for any offense caused, I have clearly upset a lot of struggling people here.

How do you know it's the people who aren't that badly off who are complaining about everything?

And the vast, vast majority of protests have been about specific issues (bank bailouts, IMF, specific taxes, specific cutbacks). Can you explain what you mean about protesting about everything?

Also your threads all seem to reference the absurdity of 'taxing the rich'. I'm guessing you could include that in a 'not in my back yard' category for yourself.

HellFireClub · 23-01-2012 07:03PM

Dudess wrote: »

Who are the selfish bastards in the PS?

The selfish plebs, the likes of those in the CPSU that have infected the Irish public sector, who are on 40K, 50K, 60K and upwards, who are in jobs for life that they cannot be dismissed from, who get automatic increments without any account whatsoever taken of their performance, who are trying to cod everyone else that they are poorly paid.

I've a few relations working in the PS and they tell me stories of idiots working to the left and the right right of them, on informal "go-slows", "work to rules", "sorry that's not in my job description", and all forms of obstructive behaviour that you would simply be fúcked out on your ear for if you even dreamt of doing it in the private sector. Only last week I heard a story about one of our semi-states where a secretary refused to put a stamp on an envelope because she had checked her job description and this particular function wasn't specifically mentioned in her job description.

Dudess · 23-01-2012 07:06PM

Meh, I wouldn't blame them for taking those jobs - it's not their fault those are the conditions, and anyone would accept such a job... including those who bitch about the public sector.

And those people you've listed who take the piss - doubtful a majority... yet all PS workers get blamed? That stamp story sounds like a fib.

It's the higher echelons of the public/civil service who deserve pay-cuts and criticism, not office administrators on 25k... and CERTAINLY not teachers (for the life of me I cannot understand how educators of younger generations have to put up with so much begrudgery), nurses, paramedics, street-cleaners, etc.

HellFireClub · 23-01-2012 07:43PM

Dudess wrote: »

Meh, I wouldn't blame them for taking those jobs - it's not their fault those are the conditions, and anyone would accept such a job... including those who bitch about the public sector.

And those people you've listed who take the piss - doubtful a majority... yet all PS workers get blamed? That stamp story sounds like a fib.

It's the higher echelons of the public/civil service who deserve pay-cuts and criticism, not office administrators on 25k... and CERTAINLY not teachers (for the life of me I cannot understand how educators of younger generations have to put up with so much begrudgery), nurses, paramedics, street-cleaners, etc.

Teachers get it in the neck and rightfully so in my opinion, because their system of employment completely protects non-performers, and those who ought to have no place in education, to the detriment of young children who will only have one shot at first and second level education.

I had some absolutely atrocious teachers in school, these folks were very clearly in the industry that they had chosen for the easy handy number that it is. I also had some excellent teachers who I can thank to this day for some of the life skills that I have.

I finished my formal education with excellent literary abilities because I had an excellent teacher who helped me develop those skills, but I also left school with a near inability to work with numbers, because I had a teacher in respect of that competency who was nothing less than a disgrace to the rest of his profession.

How the system of education we have in this country, allows both the teachers above, to enjoy the same pay, benefits, and job security, I think is something that is completely unacceptable. There wasn't even a system in existence within the Dept of Education to monitor the results that were emerging from these situations, in the latter situation, pretty much the whole class failed the Leaving Cert maths exam, but this fact wasn't even captured, let alone then try to intervene and coach or manage the useless teacher to up their game or to basically do their core job.

Just to finish the story, it was only when I got into 3rd level and met with a very competent lecturer who understood my deep weakness with maths, did I get the problem resolved at long last.

But it's not good enough that we have this kind of rediculous carry on in the public sector in 2012, where incompetence is not even faced up to, let alone dealt with.

And I don't agree with PS folks on 25K being lined up for more cuts, but this is not what the PS themselves are saying, the bar is not at 25K in their heads, they reckon that anyone on less than 100K should be left alone, only today a figure is released that only 1/4 PS employees are on more than 60K, as if 60K is just micky money!?!?!?!

What I'd love to know is how many are on between 40K and 100K, and can we start cutting their pay, (or before we even start that debate, maybe stop automatically raising their salaries every year), and at least make folks pitch for it and make a case for it through a proper and fair performance review system that rewards those who seek to improve and innovate and who leaves those that just clock in and turn up, on the same salary.

Robdude · 23-01-2012 08:18PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

This thread is sort of an accompaniment to my other recession related thread. This time I’m curious about why people are so intent of refusing to accept any and all measures brought in by the government to tackle the current crisis. No-one likes cuts and taxes I know and people are struggling but surely point blank refusing to even consider the benefits of the governments plans won’t do anyone favours?

So why the constant protesting? Are we really in such dire straights or is there a certain amount of ‘not in my back yard’ style protesting going on? Or to put it another way do you think all those protesting really are struggling (I don’t doubt some of them are btw) or are there those who really could handle the cuts and taxes but simply refuse to do so.

And in the case of those just won’t pay tax or take a cut even though they probably could afford to do so is it a lack of trust in the government, genuinely not agreeing with cuts/taxes or as above , a simple case of ‘not in my back yard’/ tax/cut only what doesn’t affect me personally?

I don't have a problem with taxes or with cuts.

I do have a problem with gross misconduct, fraud, and abuse. I see what we pay in taxes, and I see what we get for it. The numbers do not add up.

It's like driving a car with a leaking petrol tank. We don't need to drive less, and we don't need to buy more petrol. We need to stop the leak.

Celly Smunt · 23-01-2012 08:45PM

Protesters in Ireland know the problem but campaign no alternative.That's the problem.

Dudess · 23-01-2012 09:07PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

Meh, I wouldn't blame them for taking those jobs - it's not their fault those are the conditions, and anyone would accept such a job... including those who bitch about the public sector.

And those people you've listed who take the piss - doubtful a majority... yet all PS workers get blamed? That stamp story sounds like a fib.

It's the higher echelons of the public/civil service who deserve pay-cuts and criticism, not office administrators on 25k... and CERTAINLY not teachers (for the life of me I cannot understand how educators of younger generations have to put up with so much begrudgery), nurses, paramedics, street-cleaners, etc.

Teachers get it in the neck and rightfully so in my opinion, because their system of employment completely protects non-performers, and those who ought to have no place in education, to the detriment of young children who will only have one shot at first and second level education.

I had some absolutely atrocious teachers in school, these folks were very clearly in the industry that they had chosen for the easy handy number that it is. I also had some excellent teachers who I can thank to this day for some of the life skills that I have.

I finished my formal education with excellent literary abilities because I had an excellent teacher who helped me develop those skills, but I also left school with a near inability to work with numbers, because I had a teacher in respect of that competency who was nothing less than a disgrace to the rest of his profession.

How the system of education we have in this country, allows both the teachers above, to enjoy the same pay, benefits, and job security, I think is something that is completely unacceptable. There wasn't even a system in existence within the Dept of Education to monitor the results that were emerging from these situations, in the latter situation, pretty much the whole class failed the Leaving Cert maths exam, but this fact wasn't even captured, let alone then try to intervene and coach or manage the useless teacher to up their game or to basically do their core job.

Just to finish the story, it was only when I got into 3rd level and met with a very competent lecturer who understood my deep weakness with maths, did I get the problem resolved at long last.

But it's not good enough that we have this kind of rediculous carry on in the public sector in 2012, where incompetence is not even faced up to, let alone dealt with.

And I don't agree with PS folks on 25K being lined up for more cuts, but this is not what the PS themselves are saying, the bar is not at 25K in their heads, they reckon that anyone on less than 100K should be left alone, only today a figure is released that only 1/4 PS employees are on more than 60K, as if 60K is just micky money!?!?!?!

What I'd love to know is how many are on between 40K and 100K, and can we start cutting their pay, (or before we even start that debate, maybe stop automatically raising their salaries every year), and at least make folks pitch for it and make a case for it through a proper and fair performance review system that rewards those who seek to improve and innovate and who leaves those that just clock in and turn up, on the same salary.

I don't disagree with your objections to aspects of the public service, but you're still kinda scapegoating. For instance, if there are sh1t teachers and the system enables them to take the piss, fair enough to criticise this of course, but how does it justify teachers across the board getting it in the neck?

Robdude · 23-01-2012 09:17PM

Dudess wrote: »

I don't disagree with your objections to aspects of the public service, but you're still kinda scapegoating. For instance, if there are sh1t teachers and the system enables them to take the piss, fair enough to criticise this of course, but how does it justify teachers across the board getting it in the neck?

Presumably because good teachers are in a position to do something about bad teachers. More than anyone else. Every day they go to work, they experience it first hand.

How many good teachers said, 'Hold on, let's not just give us all a raise....let's come up with an objective system to measure our value'. How many said, 'Hey - let's revisit these policies that make it impossible to fire us. Even though it is nice to have job security, I think it's more important that we ensure teachers are good at their jobs. I want these things changed because it's better for the students, better for the country and better for the tax payers'.

Dudess · 23-01-2012 09:23PM

Robdude wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

I don't disagree with your objections to aspects of the public service, but you're still kinda scapegoating. For instance, if there are sh1t teachers and the system enables them to take the piss, fair enough to criticise this of course, but how does it justify teachers across the board getting it in the neck?

Presumably because good teachers are in a position to do something about bad teachers. More than anyone else. Every day they go to work, they experience it first hand.

How many good teachers said, 'Hold on, let's not just give us all a raise....let's come up with an objective system to measure our value'. How many said, 'Hey - let's revisit these policies that make it impossible to fire us. Even though it is nice to have job security, I think it's more important that we ensure teachers are good at their jobs. I want these things changed because it's better for the students, better for the country and better for the tax payers'.

Be honest though: would you? IMO blame should be apportioned to those running the show, not the actors.

Robdude · 23-01-2012 09:32PM

Dudess wrote: »

Be honest though: would you? IMO blame should be apportioned to those running the show, not the actors.

"I was only following orders!"

Dudess · 23-01-2012 09:36PM

Robdude wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

Be honest though: would you? IMO blame should be apportioned to those running the show, not the actors.

"I was only following orders!"

A perfectly valid defence much of the time - but the blame/scapegoating culture we live in causes people to sneer at it in a knee-jerk manner.

ilovesleep · 23-01-2012 09:50PM

There are no doubts about it that there are people in dire circumstances. Things fell down upon my ass there for a while for me. I just wasn't earning enough for rent, my one and only bill, and food. Had no option but to move back home.
There are still many people protected here in this country and maybe are unable to grasp that things are dire for others. And there would be a terrible, ignornant, perception of: sure, what are they suffering from? A lack of a holiday?

Anyways my urge for protesting stems from a few different things and because my pocket is directing hit. My urge comes from one:

1) A lack of accountibility
This country was one run in negligent manner. From the ex government and bankers. Some people argue, we voted for them when the writing was on the wall as if we were supposed to be econmists and that they would do so much damage.
We are all only responsible for our own personal finances - how were people to know what was happening in the banks?

A lack of accountibilty while we pick up the pieces.

2) inequality - in many shapes & forms:
Law:
Developers who behaved negligently taking out huge loans were protected by nama and were allowed to transfer assets to family.
I believe it's a different story for the normal joe soap on the street. Not that I believe they should get there own nama but oridnary joe soaps would receieve different treatment perhaps even being hauled up in court if they were unable to pay their mortgage and bills.

2) tribunals
If politicians commited a crime eg tax fraud they are protected with a tribunal where as if an ordinary person were to do the same they are held fully responsible.

In society
1) The CPA is protecting over inflated wages. Many people in the private sector has lost work or had their hours reduced so their income has been severely reduced. The very top of the PS and the civil service are overpaid and overinflated and they are protected. I realise we have a deficit and the country needs sustainable taxes. This country has a country has a huge spending problem and the new taxes and charges is sending a transfer of wealth from the lower incomes to higher incomes.

If you were to dwell on things deeper - what is keeping this country going is the the manufacturing exporting industry and the government is sucking all that is left of that for this sheer and utter greed.

I could be writing all night but I am starved.

wendell borton · 23-01-2012 09:59PM

This time I’m curious about why people are so intent of refusing to accept any and all measures brought in by the government to tackle the current crisis. No-one likes cuts and taxes I know and people are struggling but surely point blank refusing to even consider the benefits of the governments plans won’t do anyone favours?

What benifets are there from the cuts and extra taxes?
I would not mind higher taxes if i was getting something back in return, like decent healthcare and education. But instaed i see bondholders getting back billions.

SafeSurfer · 24-01-2012 12:49AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

This thread is sort of an accompaniment to my other recession related thread. This time I’m curious about why people are so intent of refusing to accept any and all measures brought in by the government to tackle the current crisis. No-one likes cuts and taxes I know and people are struggling but surely point blank refusing to even consider the benefits of the governments plans won’t do anyone favours?

So why the constant protesting? Are we really in such dire straights or is there a certain amount of ‘not in my back yard’ style protesting going on? Or to put it another way do you think all those protesting really are struggling (I don’t doubt some of them are btw) or are there those who really could handle the cuts and taxes but simply refuse to do so.

And in the case of those just won’t pay tax or take a cut even though they probably could afford to do so is it a lack of trust in the government, genuinely not agreeing with cuts/taxes or as above , a simple case of ‘not in my back yard’/ tax/cut only what doesn’t affect me personally?

Would it be unfair to ask if you are a member of a political party?

Why the constant need to protest?

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