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Leap Card - 'Load Location' for bus?

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  • 16-01-2012 8:35pm
    #1
    C08313458
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭


    I have got a leap card and it has been working successfully for me... But it has come to the time where I need to top it up for the first time since I ordered it online.
    This load location thing is confusing me. I use the bus most often, and it will be the first form of transport I will need my card for in the morning. There doesn't seem to be a shop any where near me that I can 'collect' my top up. So does that mean that if I buy the top up online and get on the bus in the morning the money won't be there and I won't be allowed on?

    Because that is really stupid.

    Is there anyone that can help me out, and tell me what to do?

    Thanks
    Tagged:


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    #2
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    C08313458 wrote: »
    So does that mean that if I buy the top up online and get on the bus in the morning the money won't be there and I won't be allowed on?

    Yes, or you will have to pay cash.
    C08313458 wrote: »
    Because that is really stupid.

    Yes it is.
    C08313458 wrote: »
    Is there anyone that can help me out, and tell me what to do?

    Any shops near by you that sell Bus Tickets, most of them do Leap Top-ups now. I'm finding shops that aren't listed on payzone.ie seem to have it. Worth a try.

    Worse case scenario, pay by cash and then top up at a shop when you get into the city center. Then top-up in the city center once a week.

    Eventually they should enable auto-topup which will work on the bus.


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    #3
    C08313458
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭C08313458


    Thanks for the quick reply. Will investigate more in to shops around the area and around my college. It's really stupid that it just isn't instant. I mean I can top up my student card, without the card (which I lost) instantly in college.
    But I guess it is still relatively new and problems will be fixed, hopefully.

    Thanks again.


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    #4
    BlueCam
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭BlueCam


    C08313458 wrote: »
    Thanks for the quick reply. Will investigate more in to shops around the area and around my college. It's really stupid that it just isn't instant. I mean I can top up my student card, without the card (which I lost) instantly in college.
    But I guess it is still relatively new and problems will be fixed, hopefully.

    Thanks again.

    It's actually not a "problem" per se. Your balance is stored on your card. If you top up online, the next morning if you go through a Dart gate or tag on at a Luas stop, both of these methods have live connections and can update your card with the new balance. If you tag on on a bus however, there is no live internet connection so the reader can't tell whether your card has been topped up - it will just see whatever the balance was the last time you used it. This isn't just an Irish thing, the same goes for Oyster cards in London - they can't be updated on buses.


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    #5
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    BlueCam wrote: »
    This isn't just an Irish thing, the same goes for Oyster cards in London - they can't be updated on buses.

    But they have auto top-up so the loading of credit onto the card is transparent.


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    #6
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,362 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    BlueCam wrote: »
    This isn't just an Irish thing, the same goes for Oyster cards in London - they can't be updated on buses.

    Transport for London website say the bus validator can be used to collect new credit from auto topup...

    Auto top-up makes sure you never run out of pay as you go credit by automatically topping up your Oyster card with funds from your bank account or credit card, whenever your balance falls below £8.

    This will happen when you touch your Oyster card on a yellow card reader as you enter or exit a station or board a bus or tram.


    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14838.aspx


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    #7
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    coylemj wrote: »
    Transport for London website say the bus validator can be used to collect new credit from auto topup...

    Yes and the same system should be coming to LEAP soon. It is already mentioned a few times in the LEAP terms and conditions.

    This auto-topup facility will be much more useful to people in Ireland then the online topup is.


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    #8
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,149 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    coylemj wrote: »
    Transport for London website say the bus validator can be used to collect new credit from auto topup...

    Auto top-up makes sure you never run out of pay as you go credit by automatically topping up your Oyster card with funds from your bank account or credit card, whenever your balance falls below £8.

    This will happen when you touch your Oyster card on a yellow card reader as you enter or exit a station or board a bus or tram.


    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14838.aspx

    You cannot purchase any type of ticket online on either the Dublin Leap or London Oyster than can be collected on a bus. So you can't buy a monthly ticket etc online or top up by 5 euro online and collect from a bus in either city.

    Oyster does and Leap will this year support "auto top-up" on all operators where a fixed value chosen in advance is selected for all occasions where auto top up is triggered. Its purely a cash top up event, no 'products' such as monthly. It will require an Irish bank account and will be implemented as a direct debit.

    However as Leap is a generation ahead, it will be possible to collect an online top up on any private coach operator in the scheme, Matthews Coaches being the first. This works for a number of reasons.

    1) Small fleet of buses with limited numbers of passengers (Dublin Bus has 120 million pa) so the list of updates is relatively small so updates relevant to the presented card can be found within the transaction time goal of less than 500ms

    2) More advanced ticketing devices fitted to private coach operators fleets with near permanent network access allowing the update list to be pushed out with a very high degree of confidence


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    #9
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    You cannot purchase any type of ticket online on either the Dublin Leap or London Oyster than can be collected on a bus. So you can't buy a monthly ticket etc online or top up by 5 euro online and collect from a bus in either city.

    Oyster does and Leap will this year support "auto top-up" on all operators where a fixed value chosen in advance is selected for all occasions where auto top up is triggered. Its purely a cash top up event, no 'products' such as monthly. It will require an Irish bank account and will be implemented as a direct debit.

    However as Leap is a generation ahead, it will be possible to collect an online top up on any private coach operator in the scheme, Matthews Coaches being the first. This works for a number of reasons.

    1) Small fleet of buses with limited numbers of passengers (Dublin Bus has 120 million pa) so the list of updates is relatively small so updates relevant to the presented card can be found within the transaction time goal of less than 500ms

    2) More advanced ticketing devices fitted to private coach operators fleets with near permanent network access allowing the update list to be pushed out with a very high degree of confidence

    Have you a source for any of this?

    The irish bank account issue seems to breach EU law

    The 500ms seems to contradict the 1000ms timings given by the nta/rpa previously

    The different level of service available from private coach operators ( who will not be able to provide a fully accessible service) seems to fly in the face of an integrated ticketing system

    It is more likely that a coach service will serve locations further from the main urban centres and so more likely to travel through 3G blackspots.


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    #10
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    coylemj wrote: »
    Transport for London website say the bus validator can be used to collect new credit from auto topup...

    Auto Topup and Online Top Up are 2 very different things.


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    #11
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Disability access is a completely separate matter. I It is really a matter for the Department of Transport. It provides (or does not provide) grants to companies to make their vehicles disability friendly. Many private operators do provide disabled access on buses and coaches.

    The fact that private bus and coach operators are smaller than DB has nothing much to do with it. DB could deploy the same system if they wanted. As far as I know the lookup for top-up has nothing to do with the time it takes to do a lookup. It has more to do with how often the machine is updated and how much memory is on the machine.

    The coach operators' system from avego doesn't require constant online access.

    The DD from a bank account in another country is to do with what facilities are available for international DD's.


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    #12
    robd
    Registered Users Posts: 951 ✭✭✭robd


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    The irish bank account issue seems to breach EU law

    I can't see how it possibly breaches EU law. It's a standard anti-fraud measure. How could an Irish operator chase down payment and frauds across the whole of the EU.


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    #13
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,312 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    The fact that private bus and coach operators are smaller than DB has nothing much to do with it. DB could deploy the same system if they wanted. As far as I know the lookup for top-up has nothing to do with the time it takes to do a lookup. It has more to do with how often the machine is updated and how much memory is on the machine.
    Dublin Bus are concerned that their ticket machines don't have enough memory to store the expected / potential number of transactions.


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    #14
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    This load location thing is idiotic. Why can't I just top up online, have the money on my account and have it top up when I tag on somewhere?

    Fair enough, it can't do it on the bus, so you need to use a shop or whatever but what bloody difference does it make to the system what type of transport I'm going to use first after I top up?

    Why does it need this information to process my top up? All it means is as I don't know if I'm using bus or rail next, I can't top up until just before I go to use it in which case it is about the same amount of hassle as buying the ticket in the station.


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    #15
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    thebman wrote: »
    This load location thing is idiotic. Why can't I just top up online, have the money on my account and have it top up when I tag on somewhere?

    Fair enough, it can't do it on the bus, so you need to use a shop or whatever but what bloody difference does it make to the system what type of transport I'm going to use first after I top up?

    Why does it need this information to process my top up? All it means is as I don't know if I'm using bus or rail next, I can't top up until just before I go to use it in which case it is about the same amount of hassle as buying the ticket in the station.

    How can it be any other way? The top-up money actually goes onto the card - it's not a means of accessing an account like a bank card. There's no money on your Laser card - it's all in your account.

    Once the money is on the leap card, the card is cash. There has to a transfer point where the money can be transferred onto your leap card.


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    #16
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    BrianD wrote: »
    How can it be any other way? The top-up money actually goes onto the card - it's not a means of accessing an account like a bank card. There's no money on your Laser card - it's all in your account.

    Once the money is on the leap card, the card is cash. There has to a transfer point where the money can be transferred onto your leap card.

    I don't really have a problem with the money only going on the card when I next use it but why do I have to tell them which form of transport I'm going to be using next when I purchase a topup? Why does it matter? The fact that I have to do that, makes the whole thing not integrated at all.

    Why does it matter which network I am on? The card should send a message to the topup server to check if a topup is available and get it when I tag on to any transport or go to a leap agent.

    It is moronic that I have to tell it which mode of transport I am going to be using in order to collect a top up.


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    #17
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,149 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    thebman wrote: »
    I don't really have a problem with the money only going on the card when I next use it but why do I have to tell them which form of transport I'm going to be using next when I purchase a topup? Why does it matter? The fact that I have to do that, makes the whole thing not integrated at all.

    Why does it matter which network I am on? The card should send a message to the topup server to check if a topup is available and get it when I tag on to any transport or go to a leap agent.

    It is moronic that I have to tell it which mode of transport I am going to be using in order to collect a top up.

    It matters since this has to happen very quickly. How long does it take for your credit card to authorise in a shop? Its far too long when you have several hundred piling towards the turnstiles at Pearse.

    When the card is presented to the reader, it has to be powered up, authenticated and read, only then can the action list be scanned updates applied and then do the tag-on/off (which might include a caping / rebate action). All that has to be done in under 500ms.

    There is simply no way that it would be possible for the reader on the platform to read the card, contact head office, get the information and update the card within the deadline. Now imagine 8:45am when the system is being pounded with transactions.

    The bigger issue is what if there is a technical problem, failure of the back office or the network connection the system has to remain working and allow users to tag on/off as normal. The update list is held locally to ensure high performance and ability to cope with the back office availability. The restriction is then the sheer number of updates held at each location as the time it takes to scan the list is proportional to the number of updates in system. Bear in mind a card can be due several updates at the same time.

    In London you must pick a specific station, Dublin is a lot more flexible in comparison.


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    #18
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    BrianD wrote: »
    How can it be any other way?

    Once the money is on the leap card, the card is cash. There has to a transfer point where the money can be transferred onto your leap card.

    One of the other overlooked points from the LeapCard T's&C's is this....
    7. Refunds, Replacements and Cancellation

    7.1 Registered and Personalised Leap Card customers can apply for a refund and/or replacement of their Leap Card either online or at a Leap Card walk-in centre (when introduced).

    I understand that it is envisaged that There will be at least two LeapCard specific Walk-In Centres in Dublin City-Centre where (presumably) a Top-Up can be configured onto Cards.

    In the meantime I cannot fathom why the RTPI system hardware (Stainless Steel Pole with inbuilt Power Supply and system connection) is not being utilized for this desirable and beneficial aspect of ITS...:confused:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #19
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    It matters since this has to happen very quickly. How long does it take for your credit card to authorise in a shop? Its far too long when you have several hundred piling towards the turnstiles at Pearse.

    When the card is presented to the reader, it has to be powered up, authenticated and read, only then can the action list be scanned updates applied and then do the tag-on/off (which might include a caping / rebate action). All that has to be done in under 500ms.

    There is simply no way that it would be possible for the reader on the platform to read the card, contact head office, get the information and update the card within the deadline. Now imagine 8:45am when the system is being pounded with transactions.

    The bigger issue is what if there is a technical problem, failure of the back office or the network connection the system has to remain working and allow users to tag on/off as normal. The update list is held locally to ensure high performance and ability to cope with the back office availability. The restriction is then the sheer number of updates held at each location as the time it takes to scan the list is proportional to the number of updates in system. Bear in mind a card can be due several updates at the same time.

    In London you must pick a specific station, Dublin is a lot more flexible in comparison.

    So your saying in London they login to the oyster website, top up, set pick up point then go there and put the top up on their card.

    Sounds like it would be easier to just go buy the ticket at the station.

    It isn't exactly user friendly either. Lets say I use different public transport systems and I want to top up so that next time I go to use it, I'm confident I have credit. I can't do it until I'm sure what transport method I'll be using. Seems like something I shouldn't have to worry about as a customer.


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    #20
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,312 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    thebman wrote: »
    Sounds like it would be easier to just go buy the ticket at the station.
    That depends, someone topping up for their children might want to do it on-line rather than doing a bunch of top-ups at the station at Monday morning rush hour.


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    #21
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,261 ✭✭✭markpb


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    In the meantime I cannot fathom why the RTPI system hardware (Stainless Steel Pole with inbuilt Power Supply and system connection) is not being utilized for this desirable and beneficial aspect of ITS...:confused:

    I can't speak for the NTA but I'd guess it would be expensive because each pole would need to be fitted with a contactless reader, SCIM and SIM and some kind of (electronic) storage.

    It's also a (small) security risk because, unlike the other units which are in shops, train stations, buses, etc and are relatively protected, stealing the SIM from a poles on the side of the road would be trivial.


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    #22
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,312 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Not quite. RTPI stops already have communications and power.

    While the validator would need to be robust, it would not need to be any more robust than a Luas or Irish Rail validator.


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    #23
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    I understand that it is envisaged that There will be at least two LeapCard specific Walk-In Centres in Dublin City-Centre where (presumably) a Top-Up can be configured onto Cards.

    There could have been dozens from day one if they added leap card's to Irish rail ticket offices. You know, minor places like Connolly, Heuston, Tara, Pearse, Dublin Airport CIE info desk, etc.!!

    And also every Irish Rail ticket vending machine should have been able to top-up and read LEAP cards from day one.
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    In the meantime I cannot fathom why the RTPI system hardware (Stainless Steel Pole with inbuilt Power Supply and system connection) is not being utilized for this desirable and beneficial aspect of ITS...:confused:

    In fairness, probably unnecessary once the auto-topup is enabled. Really this issue wouldn't exist if they enabled auto-topup from day one instead of online topup.


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    #24
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    bk wrote: »
    In fairness, probably unnecessary once the auto-topup is enabled. Really this issue wouldn't exist if they enabled auto-topup from day one instead of online topup.

    I'm quite dubious that ATU will catch-on at all.

    Reading through the T's & C's it strikes me that it's quite clunky and not a little restrictive,in monetary terms, plus there is now a great deal of distrust of the entire Banking System which might just impact on people allowing yet another entity to use Direct Debit as a means of payment.

    The issues which have arisen around the Irish Rail TIM's have also not engendered confidence in Leaps robustness in a financial sense ?

    It really is a wait n see process...:confused:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #25
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,261 ✭✭✭markpb


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Reading through the T's & C's it strikes me that it's quite clunky and not a little restrictive,in monetary terms

    Of course, it's possible that they'll change the T&Cs before or after the launch of automatic topup. They're not set in stone :)


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    #26
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    bk wrote: »
    In fairness, probably unnecessary once the auto-topup is enabled. Really this issue wouldn't exist if they enabled auto-topup from day one instead of online topup.
    A lot of people won't opt for auto top-up. I can't trust the ESB to direct debit my bank account correctly every 60 days, so I certainly wouldn't trust the Leap system to do it right.

    Although having said that I'd probably have to go to a Luas stop, train station or ticket agent to activate the direct debit.


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    #27
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,261 ✭✭✭markpb


    n97 mini wrote: »
    A lot of people won't opt for auto top-up. I can't trust the ESB to direct debit my bank account correctly every 60 days, so I certainly wouldn't trust the Leap system to do it right.

    If people have a problem with direct debit, it's completely irrelevant to Leap - they won't be able to use automatic top-up but they can still top up using any other method.

    FWIW I've been paying my ESB, BGE, Meteor, phone insurance and credit card by direct debit for almost ten years without any problem.


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    #28
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    markpb wrote: »
    FWIW I've been paying my ESB, BGE, Meteor, phone insurance and credit card by direct debit for almost ten years without any problem.

    If your Leap card is lost or stolen and then used by someone else and triggers an auto top-up etc., can you imagine the pain in the face you'd have. People can't steal your ESB but they can steal your Leap card.

    First ever DD by ESB from my account, about 6 months ago, was for €60 too much. Took 2 weeks and numerous phonecalls to get it sorted. We won't even mention Bord Gais's stolen laptop with all the customer details stored in the clear.

    And my level of trust in Leap isn't up to that of ESB or BGE either.


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    #29
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    n97 mini wrote: »
    If your Leap card is lost or stolen and then used by someone else and triggers an auto top-up etc., can you imagine the pain in the face you'd have. People can't steal your ESB but they can steal your Leap card.

    First ever DD by ESB from my account, about 6 months ago, was for €60 too much. Took 2 weeks and numerous phonecalls to get it sorted. We won't even mention Bord Gais's stolen laptop with all the customer details stored in the clear.

    And my level of trust in Leap isn't up to that of ESB or BGE either.

    Yes but your money goes into your account and then onto your card. You can have multiple cards on an account. So if you lose your card you just remove it from your account. Any DD's payment just pile up in your account.


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    #30
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Victor wrote: »
    That depends, someone topping up for their children might want to do it on-line rather than doing a bunch of top-ups at the station at Monday morning rush hour.

    People will hardly be topping up for others if they can only use their credit card once every 7 days?

    This totally unnecessary restriction on topping up the leap card only adds to other hassles people are already having with the whole driver interactions on the buses as well as getting the run-around by customer care when they are overcharged etc


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    #31
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    BrianD wrote: »
    So if you lose your card you just remove it from your account.
    Like a credit card there will be time in between that you a) don't know it's missing, or b) don't have internet access to remove it from your account.

    But more worryingly I wouldn't trust a Leap employee not to leave all my personal details, including my bank account, on a USB stick on a bus.


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