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Do I have a leg to stand on with my niece and nephew

  • 19-12-2011 03:50PM
    #1
    meoklmrk91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭


    Today it has been an entire year since I have been allowed to see my niece and nephew, my niece is 8 and my nephew 2. I'm not allowed to see them because I had an argument with my sister over her money grabbing ways. This year my niece made her communion, I was not invited. I am not allowed any contact with them whatsoever, and my sister who is about as unbalanced as they come has spread rumours about me saying that I was taking drugs and that I went to hit her with my nephew in her arms. Both of which are bull****.

    My poor mother has been getting the same treatment since may, after my nieces communion. Because before that they needed her for money. So that she would buy them a new washing machine, have her friend put it in free of charge etc. today I have had to listen to my mam crying because she posted down christmas presents and my sister brought them back telling my mother to "shove them up her hole", I would say something if they had a fight or something but no nothing, just once she had bled my mother dry she knew there was nothing else to take. It's cruel.

    I want to take her to court to get visitation for my niece and nephew. Where do I stand legally. As it stands my other sister is the only one allowed to see the kids. I should also mention that I have no criminal record and am in college.


Comments

  • #2
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    You have no legal visitation rights towards your siblings' children. There is nothing you can do legally to force them to allow you access since you are neither a parent nor guardian of the child.

    Don't know what else I can say. Your only option, if you want to see your niece and nephew, is to pander to your sister.


  • #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    seamus wrote: »
    You have no legal visitation rights towards your siblings' children. There is nothing you can do legally to force them to allow you access since you are neither a parent nor guardian of the child.

    Don't know what else I can say. Your only option, if you want to see your niece and nephew, is to pander to your sister.
    Would the OP Mother not have rights, as she would be the grandmother of the children?

    That might be one option.

    I would assume you're correct about uncle having no right though.


  • #4
    opti76
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 659 ✭✭✭opti76


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Would the OP Mother not have rights, as she would be the grandmother of the children?

    That might be one option.

    I would assume you're correct about uncle having no right though.
    fathers dont have any "right" to see there kids ... extended family have no hope unless she's an unfit mother and they get guardian status


  • #5
    meoklmrk91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭meoklmrk91


    seamus wrote: »
    You have no legal visitation rights towards your siblings' children. There is nothing you can do legally to force them to allow you access since you are neither a parent nor guardian of the child.

    Don't know what else I can say. Your only option, if you want to see your niece and nephew, is to pander to your sister.

    I pandered to her long enough, she is a sick and twisted individual, having her in my life is detrimental to my emotional and mental well being. She is toxic. If I have no rights to see them then does my mother.


  • #6
    opti76
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 659 ✭✭✭opti76


    ive never been so happy to be wrong in an assumption
    Grandparents
    Grandparents also have certain rights in relation to their grandchild. Where grandparents are having difficulty in maintaining contact with their grandchild, under the Children Act 1997 they can apply for leave to apply for access to the child through the District Court. If the grandparents are the main carer of the child and the child is not being properly financial maintained by either or both parents, the grandparents can apply to the District Court for a maintenance order. Grandparents may be able to adopt or foster a grandchild. Where parents dies without making a will appointing someone to act as guardian of their child, the grandparents can apply to the District Court to be appointed guardians. Treoir have published a booklet entitled Being there for them (pdf) for grandparents of children whose parents are not married to each other.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/cohabiting_couples/access_to_children_and_unmarried_couples.html

    the childrens act 1997.


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  • #7
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    My apologies, I appear to be wrong in my absoluteness.

    Section 9 of the Children Act allows for a relative of the children to make an application for access.

    Full details here:
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/cohabiting_couples/access_to_children_and_unmarried_couples.html

    Basically you need apply for leave to make an application for access. This notifies the parent that you have made this application. If it goes to court, the court takes a whole pile of things into account, but first and foremost is the welfare of the child and the wishes of the parents.

    Any relative of the child, or anyone who has acted in a parental role towards the child, is entitled to make this application.

    The system also appears to be set up to be as cheap as possible so that you don't have to spend big money to go through this process.

    I think your biggest problem is going to be your sister's opposition to your access order and the relatively loose link between you and the child. She could bring up the same lies in court, and all else being equal the judge might consider the conflict between you and your sister to be an issue which the child should not be exposed to.

    But no harm giving it a go if you've exhausted all avenues.

    While the link above says you can represent yourself, it would be money well spent to consult with a solicitor who specialises in family law, at least initially. They may recommend, for example, that your mother would be better placed to make the application than you.


  • #8
    meoklmrk91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭meoklmrk91


    opti76 wrote: »
    ive never been so happy to be wrong in an assumption
    Grandparents
    Grandparents also have certain rights in relation to their grandchild. Where grandparents are having difficulty in maintaining contact with their grandchild, under the Children Act 1997 they can apply for leave to apply for access to the child through the District Court. If the grandparents are the main carer of the child and the child is not being properly financial maintained by either or both parents, the grandparents can apply to the District Court for a maintenance order. Grandparents may be able to adopt or foster a grandchild. Where parents dies without making a will appointing someone to act as guardian of their child, the grandparents can apply to the District Court to be appointed guardians. Treoir have published a booklet entitled Being there for them (pdf) for grandparents of children whose parents are not married to each other.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/cohabiting_couples/access_to_children_and_unmarried_couples.html

    the childrens act 1997.

    Thank you, my mother has asked me to leave it until the new year as she is very upset about the whole thing, she is currently in bed crying over what has happened. She just wants to get through Christmas. My sister is off her tree and needs to get herself some help.


  • #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    opti76 wrote: »
    ive never been so happy to be wrong in an assumption
    Grandparents
    Grandparents also have certain rights in relation to their grandchild. Where grandparents are having difficulty in maintaining contact with their grandchild, under the Children Act 1997 they can apply for leave to apply for access to the child through the District Court. If the grandparents are the main carer of the child and the child is not being properly financial maintained by either or both parents, the grandparents can apply to the District Court for a maintenance order. Grandparents may be able to adopt or foster a grandchild. Where parents dies without making a will appointing someone to act as guardian of their child, the grandparents can apply to the District Court to be appointed guardians. Treoir have published a booklet entitled Being there for them (pdf) for grandparents of children whose parents are not married to each other.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/cohabiting_couples/access_to_children_and_unmarried_couples.html

    the childrens act 1997.
    I only sort of knew about it, because one of my neighbours were/are fighting in court for visitation right to their grandchildren.


  • #10
    opti76
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 659 ✭✭✭opti76


    meoklmrk91 wrote: »
    Thank you, my mother has asked me to leave it until the new year as she is very upset about the whole thing, she is currently in bed crying over what has happened. She just wants to get through Christmas. My sister is off her tree and needs to get herself some help.
    only issue will be your sister ... she could say anything in court so be prepared for it ... id consult the free legal aid or a solicitor if i were you ... your sister sounds "difficult" to deal with... i dunno is it worth your while keeping a register of attempts to speak to the kids and her responses etc ... txts can be handy to keep .. like asking her to see the kids and keeping the replies etc might help in a court case


  • #11
    meoklmrk91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭meoklmrk91


    seamus wrote: »
    My apologies, I appear to be wrong in my absoluteness.

    Section 9 of the Children Act allows for a relative of the children to make an application for access.

    Full details here:
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/cohabiting_couples/access_to_children_and_unmarried_couples.html

    Basically you need apply for leave to make an application for access. This notifies the parent that you have made this application. If it goes to court, the court takes a whole pile of things into account, but first and foremost is the welfare of the child and the wishes of the parents.

    Any relative of the child, or anyone who has acted in a parental role towards the child, is entitled to make this application.

    The system also appears to be set up to be as cheap as possible so that you don't have to spend big money to go through this process.

    I think your biggest problem is going to be your sister's opposition to your access order and the relatively loose link between you and the child. She could bring up the same lies in court, and all else being equal the judge might consider the conflict between you and your sister to be an issue which the child should not be exposed to.

    But no harm giving it a go if you've exhausted all avenues.

    While the link above says you can represent yourself, it would be money well spent to consult with a solicitor who specialises in family law, at least initially. They may recommend, for example, that your mother would be better placed to make the application than you.

    It is important to me that the children are protected through all of this, my niece especially adores the ground my mother walks on and hid only knows what stories she is telling her.

    I will be making an application and so will my mother hopefully, I will most certainly be getting a solicitor. Even of she does bring up the lies in court surely a judge will not believe them without proof, I would be happy to submit drug testing and could get many character witnesses of good standing in the community to stand up and state that what she has said is lies. If the judge wants what is best for the child then surely having a relationship with their extended family who had been a huge part of their lives up until all this started is part of that. I don't care if it's supervised visits or what I just want to be a part of their lives it has gone on far too long.


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  • #12
    nuac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    Can you seek to resolve this outside the legal arena. ? A court would be slow to compel a mother to allow access to her her children especially at that age'

    Further legal proceedings no matter who wins can leave a bitter residue for generations.

    Can your mother or some aunt or uncle do anything especially at this time of year.?
    A personal issue like this should not really be put up on a public board


  • #13
    nuac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    S|orry hadn'tnoticed your last postthatyour mother also a party in the action.

    I still continue to advise that every effort should be made to resolve this outside of court.


  • #14
    nuac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    Sorry didn't notice your last post that yhour mother was also taking an action.

    Would still strongly advise to sort this out of court, and off the 'net.


  • #15
    ad1234
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 160 ✭✭ad1234


    sad to hear for you but i hope you can resolve this outside court. ive had a lot of legal problems with my ex and its very hard on all involved and am almost positive the 8 year old can have a say at her age an may have to face being brought into court an having to stand there with her fighting relatives in front of her and have to tell the judge what she would like. and really hope your sister hasnt been working poison on them. you also have to consider your nephews age, its really unlikely you will be givin access that is not supervised by his mother as not many judges will separate im from his mother at 2 and hand him to stranger, sorry know its harsh but at that age any child is very anxious with anyone other than their immediat family and he prob would see you as stangers and the separation would be very stressful on him.

    I would really recommend a solicitor for advice and to be there for yous with the case. I have tried it alone before and the judges didnt seem to take me seriously, plus a local solicitor usually knows the judges from experience and usually know how to speak to judge to get the best results.

    I hope you solve this. its not fair on the kids. plus would prob do them good to have stable people in their lives from what you've said.

    good luck.


  • #16
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,889 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    meoklmrk91 wrote: »
    My sister is off her tree and needs to get herself some help.
    Is your sister self-absorbed or are there medical or substance abuse issues at play?


  • #17
    meoklmrk91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭meoklmrk91


    Victor wrote: »
    meoklmrk91 wrote: »
    My sister is off her tree and needs to get herself some help.
    Is your sister self-absorbed or are there medical or substance abuse issues at play?

    No substance abuse, she is a good mother which I will happily say. But she is letting her own issues cloud her judgement and putting that before the needs of her children.

    I really don't want this to go to court but I just don't understand why she uses the children as weapons in that if you don't pander to her every need or whim and take all her bull**** and abuse then you will not be allowed to see the children.

    I think it is important for every child to have a number of stable role models in their lives and most kids get this from their immediate and extended family and I worry how they will cope with so little in the way of good role models in their lives.

    I feel so bad for my mam, it's completely unfair what my sister is doing to her and the kids. I feel this will end up killing her and my sister is only punishing her for crap that happened years ago and can't be changed now. I just can't understand why anyone would use their children like that, she never even opened the presents that were sent down as she new my mams hand writing, however their was money in the cards for each of them and was this known I know that they would never have been brought back up. Children have no understanding of what is going on and therefore should not be dragged into it. She hasn't a leg to stand on in saying that either my mother or I would be a danger to the kids.


  • #18
    meoklmrk91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭meoklmrk91


    nuac wrote: »
    Can you seek to resolve this outside the legal arena. ? A court would be slow to compel a mother to allow access to her her children especially at that age'

    Further legal proceedings no matter who wins can leave a bitter residue for generations.

    Can your mother or some aunt or uncle do anything especially at this time of year.?
    A personal issue like this should not really be put up on a public board

    I completely understand your point of view but I don't see how anyone benefits from the children being kept away from their relatives. I mean if I ever have kids they will never know their aunt or their cousins, no one benefits here. If there was a way that it could be sorted believe me ihave tried but she won't budge.

    I also get what you are saying about it being on the Internet but I need to get advice from somewhere, I have never done anything like this before not heard of it and at my wits end I just don't know what else to do.


  • #19
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    By the sound of it, your sister will be coming to your mother and / or you soon enough, when she was something. Try and sit it out for a while - she'll be back for something just as sure as the sun rises in the east. Then it's up to you to set the terms, not her.


  • #20
    meoklmrk91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭meoklmrk91


    odds_on wrote: »
    By the sound of it, your sister will be coming to your mother and / or you soon enough, when she was something. Try and sit it out for a while - she'll be back for something just as sure as the sun rises in the east. Then it's up to you to set the terms, not her.

    I hear you but it has been a year since I have seen them and 6 months for my mam, my nephew who is two isn't going to have 1 iota who I am when/if I get to see him again.


  • #21
    meoklmrk91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭meoklmrk91


    Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their advice. I had decided that the legs route was not the best option for anyone involved over Christmas.

    My sister has actually contacted my mother surprise, surprise because she wants something so we will see how that goes.


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  • #22
    mkie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61 ✭✭mkie


    go on fill us in:confused:


  • #23
    meoklmrk91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭meoklmrk91


    mkie wrote: »
    go on fill us in:confused:

    She needs someone to mind the kids, she told my mother the reason she fell out with her for 6 months as well. My mother bought a small gift for the daughter of a friend (it was her birthday) and she didn't buy anything for my niece, who at the age if 8 should be well able to handle not being bought stuff at every turn, more of the grabbing behaviour from my sister, what kind of rubbish way is that to teach a kid.

    The kids will be coming to stay at the end if the week which I am delighted about but am going to avoid seeing my sister if I can. I am even more mad at her now that I know the idiotic reason she fell out with my mother and I have a bad temper at the best of times.


  • #24
    swifty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭swifty42


    I hope someone can help.

    My sister has four children, two of which are with the same dad. She has been subject to all sorts of harrasment and domestic violence from the Father of these two children for the last seven years. She has moved house seven times and has now with the help of womens aid relocated to an entirely different part of the UK. She has cut off all ties with friends and anyone who is not immediate family so that he will not be able to find her.

    However, he has been granted access to the two children despite his violent criminal record and several arrests regarding my sister. Because my sister has moved and not allowed him access she has been tracked down by HMRC and has to go back to court.

    She is entirely stressed out and terrified. So much so that she has instructed a solicitor to ask the court to give the children to the father so that he will finally leave her alone or at least if he does come anywhere near her then the police will be a bit more likely to take it seriously. There have been several occasions where the police have been called but they have seen it as a domestiv dispute and so not really been that helpful.

    She has no faith, no energy and no hope left and will not try and fight this anymore..... she has decided that she will hand the kids over and will not listen to anyone else. This is not in the childrens best interest to tear them away from their other sisters, cousins, uncles, aunties, school, friends, grandparent... they have never lived iwth their dad ever before... what can I do?? can I apply for access if he does get them , can I write to the court? can I attend the court any suggestions please ???


  • #25
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    swifty42 wrote: »
    I hope someone can help.

    My sister has four children, two of which are with the same dad. She has been subject to all sorts of harrasment and domestic violence from the Father of these two children for the last seven years. She has moved house seven times and has now with the help of womens aid relocated to an entirely different part of the UK. She has cut off all ties with friends and anyone who is not immediate family so that he will not be able to find her.

    However, he has been granted access to the two children despite his violent criminal record and several arrests regarding my sister. Because my sister has moved and not allowed him access she has been tracked down by HMRC and has to go back to court.

    She is entirely stressed out and terrified. So much so that she has instructed a solicitor to ask the court to give the children to the father so that he will finally leave her alone or at least if he does come anywhere near her then the police will be a bit more likely to take it seriously. There have been several occasions where the police have been called but they have seen it as a domestiv dispute and so not really been that helpful.

    She has no faith, no energy and no hope left and will not try and fight this anymore..... she has decided that she will hand the kids over and will not listen to anyone else. This is not in the childrens best interest to tear them away from their other sisters, cousins, uncles, aunties, school, friends, grandparent... they have never lived iwth their dad ever before... what can I do?? can I apply for access if he does get them , can I write to the court? can I attend the court any suggestions please ???
    Sounds like she needs a new solicitor. You won't get advice beyond that here.


  • #26
    swifty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭swifty42


    Unfortunately the solicitor is following her instructions....


  • #27
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    swifty42 wrote: »
    Unfortunately the solicitor is following her instructions....


    I hate it when they do that


  • #28
    edanto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,803 ✭✭✭edanto


    @swifty42 you're new to boards.ie, and welcome. But you might not know that this is the wrong area of boards.ie to ask for the type of advice you seem to need. You're in the legal discussion forum and it's against the rules of this forum to ask for specific legal advice about your own situation, since that advice is always best given in the office of a solicitor.

    You should head over to the personal issues forum where people might be able to help you help your sister. There is a different set of rules for that forum, read the 'charter' post for details.


  • #29
    swifty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭swifty42


    Oops - Im really sorry.

    I hope I haven't upset anyone... I'll pop over there then.x


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