Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

2011 Census enumerator edited 'my religion' when collecting my form

Options
135

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    MagicSean wrote: »
    I would say a district court judge would be easily persuaded you were lying. They don't often like playing games. It may get overuled in a higher court eventually.

    I'm not aware of any global register of religions, and the standard defiitions are very loose, so it might be very difficult for a court to rule that Jediism isn't one.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jediism
    http://www.jedichurch.org/


  • Options
    #63
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    darokane wrote: »
    District court judges are a joke
    You can choose to have your case heard in a circuit court anyway, A jury would laugh if something like this ever came to trial

    You think so? It's a very religious country so a jury may not consist of people who find it amusing to have their beliefs mocked.


  • Options
    #64
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    MagicSean wrote: »
    You think so? It's a very religious country so a jury may not consist of people who find it amusing to have their beliefs mocked.

    What beliefs are being mocked by someone identifing as a Jedi?

    Edit: Why does a Jury have to come into this anyway?


  • Options
    #65
    Jesus Shaves
    Registered Users Posts: 2,959 ✭✭✭Jesus Shaves


    MagicSean wrote: »
    You think so? It's a very religious country so a jury may not consist of people who find it amusing to have their beliefs mocked.

    That is why the right of appeal is a good thing, it wont be a religious country for much longer


  • Options
    #66
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    MagicSean wrote: »
    I would say a district court judge would be easily persuaded you were lying. They don't often like playing games. It may get overuled in a higher court eventually.

    If anyone was ever prosecuted over lying on census forms it would be over material facts, such as if you said your home had 400 bedrooms etc.

    They would never ever in a million years prosecute for lying about your religion. In the OP's situation the enumerator would be more likely to get prosecuted as they are the one who was tampering with the form
    MagicSean wrote: »
    You think so? It's a very religious country so a jury may not consist of people who find it amusing to have their beliefs mocked.

    No, it's not a very religious country, out of everyone I know not one person under the age of 60 goes to mass except for at christenings, weddings etc.

    How exactly is saying you're a jedi mocking someone elses religious views?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This thread actually deserves a Jedi face palm

    DoubleFacepalm.jpg


  • Options
    #68
    lestat21
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭lestat21


    This is an international phenomena that started in protest against the religion affiliation question on the census form, but my friend put it on his form because he is a huge star wars fan... I would act agree with him and say he has every right to put JEdi down, after all scientology's apparently a religion!!

    As a historian and a mathematican, I think all stats should be included to give an overall picture of Irish society! and no ones answer should be changed especially the religion question which is such a subjective and personal area.

    Some stats I robbed off Wikipedia...

    In England and Wales 390,127 people (almost 0.8%) stated their religion as Jedi on their 2001 Census forms, surpassing Sikhism, Judaism, and Buddhism, and making it the fourth largest reported religion in the countries.[14] In the 2001 Census 2.6% of the population of Brighton claimed to be Jedi. The percentages of religious affiliations were: It was confirmed prior to the census that citizens were not liable for a fine in relation to question 10 (on religion).[15] This was based on section 1(2) of the Census (Amendment) Act 2000,[16] which amended section 8 of the Census Act 2000 to state that "no person shall be liable to a penalty under subsection (1) for refusing or neglecting to state any particulars in respect of religion". The change in the law was implemented by The Census (Amendment) Order 2000[17] and The Census (Amendment) Regulations 2000.[18]

    Jedi was assigned its own code in the United Kingdom for census processing, the number 896.[19] Officials from the Office for National Statistics pointed out that this merely means that it has been registered as a common answer to the "religion" question and that this does not confer on it the status of official recognition. John Pullinger, Director of Reporting and Analysis for the Census, noted that many people who would otherwise not have completed a Census form did so solely to record themselves as Jedi, so this joke helped to improve the quality of the Census. The Office of National Statistics revealed the total figure in a press release entitled "390,000 Jedis there are".[20]


  • Options
    #69
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    lestat21 wrote: »
    The Office of National Statistics revealed the total figure in a press release entitled "390,000 Jedis there are".
    You have to admire their sense of humour :)


  • Options
    #70
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,312 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    knird evol wrote: »
    With all these moral dilemas I think you should ask yourself
    the simple question 'what would Luke Skywalker have done'?

    I don't know, but Han would have shot him under the table.


  • Options
    #71
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    darokane wrote: »
    District court judges are a joke
    You can choose to have your case heard in a circuit court anyway, A jury would laugh if something like this ever came to trial
    District courts are for people who have no money to defend themselves against vindictive police and state agencies.

    For real justice you need the chap in a wig.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    I think this thread has run its course and then gone wildly off topic. Anyone have a good reason it should continue?


  • Options
    #73
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    How did he know his religion isn't Jedi?

    Did he pay his jedi tax? No? Clear as day, so.


  • Options
    #74
    zuroph
    Registered Users Posts: 11,097 ✭✭✭✭zuroph


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I think this thread has run its course and then gone wildly off topic. Anyone have a good reason it should continue?

    Yoda appeared to me in a dream and told me "stay open it must"


  • Options
    #75
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    An aside. Has anyone been ever prosecuted for this type of thing?


  • Options
    #76
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    Our man in Havana wrote: »
    An aside. Has anyone been ever prosecuted for this type of thing?

    I don't think so, I think the only prosecutions have been for people who didn't fill it out at all.

    Personally If it had been me who was there when the enumerator had came to collect mine and she had quizzed me on aspects of the form I would have told her to forget about collecting it and that some other person would have to collect it.


  • Options
    #77
    lestat21
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭lestat21


    Tayla wrote: »
    I don't think so, I think the only prosecutions have been for people who didn't fill it out at all.

    Personally If it had been me who was there when the enumerator had came to collect mine and she had quizzed me on aspects of the form I would have told her to forget about collecting it and that some other person would have to collect it.


    U can prosecute someone for not filling in the religion question?? That seems very medieval... What is their thinking behinnd prosecuting people over one lil question on the census form?


  • Options
    #78
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    lestat21 wrote: »
    U can prosecute someone for not filling in the religion question?? That seems very medieval... What is their thinking behinnd prosecuting people over one lil question on the census form?

    Sorry for the confusion, I think they only prosecute if you don't fill in any of the form at all!


  • Options
    #79
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    gj777 wrote: »
    Hi,
    I know what some are thinking already and yes: it's the 'Jedi thing' ...BUT what I wrote on my form is not the point - I was just informed that when the enumerator collected our form back last April, they opened it up, checked that section and actually scribbled out my entry because I wrote Jedi. Apparently he mumbled 'we don't allow that anymore' or something!

    Are they allowed to do this? I would be surprised if this is not an invasion of privacy of some kind. Honestly I'm not sure if we are even legally obliged to fill the census out at all, but if we are then surely the provided info can't be edited by anyone other than the person who's name is at the top of the page? From the signed declaration I believe we must be accurate - so surely that doesn't give the right to anyone to dispute my entries with out discussion, especially the only subjective entry: what religion I consider myself?

    This is really an academic concern about what the enumerator can do with forms, I'm not concerned with whether one is actually a practising member of whatever faith and so what one 'should' write on the forms. Which is basically related to why I put Jedi on my forms.
    If anyone cares about why I do it I can tell them, but that's not my point here.
    I'm not trying to defend religious practice or establish Jedi as anything, I'm just shocked that apparently the enumerator knows what religion I am and has the right to correct how I represent myself.
    I can understand that the counters might get a bit sick of it, but that's not my problem. To me the Jedi thing is a kind of alternative to a typical vote abstention or vote spoiling, and I should have the right to do that ...right?

    Anyone have any insights into this?

    Thanks all, live long and... wait, no.

    Edit: according to the census.ie site, yes we're legally obliged to complete the form.

    Why did you put Jedi on the form? To abstain you could have chosen not to answer the question, or ticked the no religion box.


  • Options
    #80
    Jesus Shaves
    Registered Users Posts: 2,959 ✭✭✭Jesus Shaves


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Why did you put Jedi on the form? To abstain you could have chosen not to answer the question, or ticked the no religion box.

    Why would he do that if his religion is JEDI?


  • Options
    #81
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    darokane wrote: »
    Why would he do that if his religion is JEDI?

    If his religion was really Jedi then he could put that. But it obviously wasn't.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,312 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Our man in Havana wrote: »
    An aside. Has anyone been ever prosecuted for this type of thing?

    Realistically, I can only see the likes of the occupiers of large buildings, e.g. a boarding school being prosecuted for failure to complete or third parties for damage, theft or other interference.


  • Options
    #83
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    darokane wrote: »
    Why would he do that if his religion is JEDI?

    If his religion was Jedi then of course he should have put it down. He did state in his OP that he answered the question in that way to register an abstention/protest (against what, who knows?). The fact is he has stated he has a religious belief when he most likely doesn't have one. His lie on the form has corrupted the statistic. The question wouldn't be asked if it wasn't important.

    If he is willing to lie and make a declaration of truth for this, can the rest of the data on his form be trusted to be accurate. Sure wouldn't it also be a great protest/laugh to say he was an African traveller with a PhD that lives in a 40 room house?

    He should be prosecuted and fined. The census is too important for pricking about and acting the bollocks with. I have a very low opinion of the OP, much lower now that he went to the CSO and possibly lost the enumerator the chance to work on the census again. All for what - the ability to make a false declaration. I hope you're proud of yourself.


  • Options
    #84
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »

    If he is willing to lie and make a declaration of truth for this, can the rest of the data on his form be trusted to be accurate. Sure wouldn't it also be a great protest/laugh to say he was an African traveller with a PhD that lives in a 40 room house?

    That is ridiculous, the state could prove he wasn't African, that he didn't have a PHD and that his house didn't have 40 rooms. The state cannot mind read, they do not know that that in his head he doesn't believe in Jedi as a religion.
    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    He should be prosecuted and fined. The census is too important for pricking about and acting the bollocks with.

    The exact same thing can be applied to the enumerator who tampered with the census form.
    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    I have a very low opinion of the OP, much lower now that he went to the CSO and possibly lost the enumerator the chance to work on the census again.

    If that's what has lost the enumerator their job then perhaps they shouldn't have tampered with the answers. It is a job which has very strict rules, the enumerator should have known not to scribble it out.


  • Options
    #85
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Tayla wrote: »
    That is ridiculous, the state could prove he wasn't African, that he didn't have a PHD and that his house didn't have 40 rooms. The state cannot mind read, they do not know that that in his head he doesn't believe in Jedi as a religion.

    The states belief is irrelevant. He stated in his OP that he did it as a protest. Just because the state cannot prove that you are lying is no justification for actually lying on the form.

    The exact same thing can be applied to the enumerator who tampered with the census form.



    If that's what has lost the enumerator their job then perhaps they shouldn't have tampered with the answers. It is a job which has very strict rules, the enumerator should have known not to scribble it out.

    The forms also need to be filled out truthfully. Something which wasn't done by the OP. Two wrongs don't make a right ( however in this case they did actually correct the data) but you should at least acknowledge that it was also wrong to lie or misrepresent himself on the census.

    I find it ironic that the OP sought to have the rules enforced when he didn't abide by them. Hypocrisy.


  • Options
    #86
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Just because the state cannot prove that you are lying is no justification for actually lying on the form.

    I think that anyone who wants to lie about their religion should be allowed to lie if they so wish, would there be such a big deal if someone said they were protestant and they weren't?

    Also the fact that the state used CACI to aid the census completely justifies people writing whatever they want to me!

    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    The forms also need to be filled out truthfully. Something which wasn't done by the OP. Two wrongs don't make a right but you should at least acknowledge that it was also wrong to lie or misrepresent himself on the census.

    You should at least acknowledge that if the enumerator does not get the chance to do the job again that it was her own fault instead of trying to make the OP feel like he is the one to blame.


  • Options
    #87
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    I find it ironic that the OP sought to have the rules enforced when he didn't abide by them. Hypocrisy.

    Yes and doesn't the same apply to the enumerator, she tried to change the OP's answer because she decided that he broke the rules, she then broke the rules herself.


  • Options
    #88
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Tayla wrote: »
    I think that anyone who wants to lie about their religion should be allowed to lie if they so wish, would there be such a big deal if someone said they were protestant and they weren't?

    Also the fact that the state used CACI to aid the census completely justifies people writing whatever they want to me!

    There is no justification for lying on the census. Anyone that does doesn't deserve to be taken seriously as an individual.
    You should at least acknowledge that if the enumerator does not get the chance to do the job again that it was her own fault instead of trying to make the OP feel like he is the one to blame.

    The enumerator was trying to improve the quality of the raw data that was to be presented for analysis. Liars like the OP, waste census staff resources as the form has to be manually processed. They also corrupt the statistics. The OP was to blame. If he had answered truthfully this situation would never have arisen. Also if he had let sleeping dogs lie and allowed the truthful answer to remain on the form, this situation would also never have arisen. All I can see is that the enumerator misunderstood the guidelines for dealing with bullshit answers and difficult individuals. The enumerators job is tough enough as it is without people intentionally making life more difficult for them.


  • Options
    #89
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Tayla wrote: »
    Yes and doesn't the same apply to the enumerator, she tried to change the OP's answer because she decided that he broke the rules, she then broke the rules herself.

    But she correctly spotted the wrong answer, as the OP stated he did this as a protest, not out of any true belief in Jedi. The OP should have protested to the enumerator at the time but didn't.

    The OP has admitted to lying on an official document so does he now have any credibility?


  • Options
    #90
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    There is no justification for lying on the census. Anyone that does doesn't deserve to be taken seriously as an individual.

    :rolleyes: Oh come on, that's a bit of a dramatic statement. The Catholic church don't deserve to be considered a religion considering their past actions but yet they are but yet someone tells a little white lie on the census form and they don't deserve to be taken seriously as an individual.....alrighty!


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    The enumerator was trying to improve the quality of the raw data that was to be presented for analysis.

    I don't care what she was trying to do, it's against the rules which you seem to be fond of.
    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Liars like the OP, waste census staff resources as the form has to be manually processed.

    Well if the government haven't yet adjusted the system to allow for the Jedi response then where the hell have they been? This is gaining momentum worldwide and the UK has assigned Jedi it's own code to enable processing, if the Irish government can't do similar then it's their own fault if they have to manually process forms.


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    They also corrupt the statistics. The OP was to blame. If he had answered truthfully this situation would never have arisen. Also if he had let sleeping dogs lie and allowed the truthful answer to remain on the form, this situation would also never have arisen.
    All I can see is that the enumerator misunderstood the guidelines for dealing with bullshit answers and difficult individuals. The enumerators job is tough enough as it is without people intentionally making life more difficult for them.

    The census director himself that people who wanted to call themselves witches or Jedi could not be stopped, perhaps the enumerator was asleep during that part of their training because no doubt the question came up!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    But she correctly spotted the wrong answer, as the OP stated he did this as a protest, not out of any true belief in Jedi. The OP should have protested to the enumerator at the time but didn't.

    The OP has admitted to lying on an official document so does he now have any credibility?

    It wasn't a WRONG answer.
    It's a voluntary question, the director also said that "If people really want to express their religious affiliation in a particular way, they're within their rights to do so."


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement