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First they spend 40k on a wordpress website, now this, what planet are these on

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Comments

  • #62
    rf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53 ✭✭rf1980


    Put in a FOI request recently for an update on MerrionStreet.ie costs. See details at http://www.rfahey.org/2011/12/26/merrionstreet-ie-a-cost-overview/ along with a copy of the Google Analytics report.


  • #63
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    i'm a contractor
    sometimes i'm sub contracted
    last year i quoted the same job twice
    one directly to the health board one to a contractor that sometimes subs me

    the contractor got the job and i did the work for them

    same price on both my quotes so i'd have to assume that i was picked over me at a higher price

    believe it or not ...


  • #64
    ART6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭ART6


    Tigger wrote: »
    i'm a contractor
    sometimes i'm sub contracted
    last year i quoted the same job twice
    one directly to the health board one to a contractor that sometimes subs me

    the contractor got the job and i did the work for them

    same price on both my quotes so i'd have to assume that i was picked over me at a higher price

    believe it or not ...

    I would certainly believe it as that is the way public service contracts work. In my company, any time we have considered such a contract there have been three stages. The first is a declaration of interest submitted to the client. This is followed by a pre-qualification stage where one has to demonstrate that one has both the ability, track record, and balance sheet sufficient to be able to guarantee the work, and then finally the bid stage.

    It is quite normal to fail at the pre-qualification stage when, although one's price may be the lowest, the other considerations don't permit qualification. It's supposed to protect public money by ensuring that if the work isn't completed, or isn't completed to the acceptable standard, you have the funds to put it right at your own expense. That means that the larger the contract the larger your balance sheet has to be to be allowed to bid. As always, the elimination of risk increases the cost.

    This has been a matter of concern to the EC for many years, as it rules out SMEs from bidding for larger PS contracts, while the EC is trying to encourage SMEs.

    Given this, it is always a wonder to me how it is that so many PS contracts seem to go badly wrong and cost the public purse so much. Mismanagement perhaps?


  • #65
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I've assessed tender applications for the public sector in the past (as a hired consultant, which they sometimes do).

    The quality of responses varies wildly, as to the prices. Low-ball quotes will often ring just as many warning bells as the ridiculously inflated ones - this is because ultimately the quote is only one factor that one assesses when determining any short-list. The first cut-off test is actually whether the tendering company has actually read the RFT; many clearly don't and simply send a document which is padded out with generic content, with little or no effort on the actual requirements being sought.

    A second factor is communication. A contractor may be an excellent developer, but there are also project management, analysis and - frankly - communication skills needed for any kind of gig of that nature. And this too is reflected in responses, because even if they have have, in theory, responded to the RFT requirements, lack of clarity will point to someone with whom you'll have problems communicating with in the future.

    And then there is the question of stability. You want someone who is not going to fall under a bus tomorrow and leave you in the lurch. Or go bust. This is why freelancers will rarely get gigs beyond a certain size, and SME's will only get them up to a larger size and the really big contracts will only go to those consultancy firms that are most likely to be around in two years and be able to quickly replace any resources that fall under a bus.

    Ultimately, public sector managers principally want to cover their asses first (understandably, although many go too far on this, as I already explained earlier in this thread) - price is a secondary consideration. So what will happen is that unless you price yourself outside of their budget, the price you quote will only be looked at once the above cut-offs have been weeded out first.


  • #66
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    ART6 wrote: »
    Given this, it is always a wonder to me how it is that so many PS contracts seem to go badly wrong and cost the public purse so much. Mismanagement perhaps?
    Good question. I don't know if there is any single answer for this, but there are a few reasons I've seen over the years, off the top of my head. Firstly, from the supplier:
    • Front Loading. This is commonplace to begin with - the really experienced resources you get at the start of a project for the initial meetings are not the one's who'll be doing the work, so the client may not get the skills they require, let alone expect. Cheap resources will instead be employed.
    • Planned Feature Creep. Clients may not know exactly what they want and the supplier will fail to properly distil this at the requirements/design stages. It might be because the supplier has poor analysis skills, but I've seen some knowingly let the client go down this road because they know that it will inevitably end in later feature creep, which is not covered by the original quote and may in fact be where the real money is made on a low-ball quote.
    • Conflict of interests. A suppler can recommend not the best architecture at design time, but the one that either suits their resources or their business partnerships and subsidiaries.
    And from the client:
    • Client politics. Public sector and large private firms are very similar in this regard. Points of contact will change, or the wrong one will be put on the project for numerous unrelated reasons. This can lead to one client vision for requirements at design time which will be totally different to that at delivery. Other than delays, feature creep will inevitably follow.
    • Incompetence and sloth. Large organizations have lot of 'pointy haired' managers who are in both incompetence and lazy in equal measure. Often they will sign off on requirements and spec documents, without actually reading them. And even if they do, they might not understand them - and not admit this. Overruns are inevitable thereafter.
    • Indecision. This is a related issue to the above because often managers in large organizations will avoid taking any decision that may come back to haunt them later, thus leaving suppliers in limbo or, worse still, time sensitive choices will not be made until it's too late - a classic example of this is where it becomes clear that you have to redo a large chunk of development, due to changing requirements, but to do so will result in someone admitting a mistake on the client-side. Eventually they will, but not before they throw more good money after bad.
    • White Elephants. Some projects when first tendered are frankly White Elephants and this only becomes apparent well after the project has started, at which time the whole thing goes back to the drawing board as everyone tries to salvage something from the whole mess.


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  • #67
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Take a look at the utterly pointless redevelopment of the Digital Hub's website

    http://www.thedigitalhub.com/

    Losing State money hand over fist and rearranging the deckchairs!


  • #68
    rf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53 ✭✭rf1980


    MadsL wrote: »
    Take a look at the utterly pointless redevelopment of the Digital Hub's website

    http://www.thedigitalhub.com/

    Losing State money hand over fist and rearranging the deckchairs!

    oh dear, that website makes my eyes hurt. So loud and clumsy.


  • #69
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    The new householdcharge.ie site is in breach of the so-called European cookie directive in that it allows Google Analytics to place a persistant cookie on the users PC without informing them that this is about to happen and without offering an easy way to opt out before this happens.

    It's mentioned in their privacy policy, but by then, the damage has been done and the visitors data has been shared with Google. And the only way they offer to opt out is telling users to disable cookies in their browsers. That's not what the directive intended.

    You'd think that a new site would take account of the latest rules.

    Any idea who the contractors are?


  • #70
    GetWithIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭GetWithIt


    The Local Government Computer Services Board by the looks of it. They themselves may have contractors hired internally but they tend to be hired individually .


  • #71
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    GetWithIt wrote: »
    The Local Government Computer Services Board by the looks of it. They themselves may have contractors hired internally but they tend to be hired individually .

    I tried to register and got this:
    There was an issue processing your request.
    To return to the homepage of the Household charge System please click here

    No explanation, no advice, no tech support contact....

    Then I looked at the URL, it's running on Windows...


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  • #72
    Nuttzz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,793 ✭✭✭Nuttzz


    You can say you dont have a PPS number, what if you select that option but do pay it anyway?

    Why do you need a PPS number for this at all?


  • #73
    GetWithIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭GetWithIt


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    I tried to register and got this:

    No explanation, no advice, no tech support contact....

    Then I looked at the URL, it's running on Windows...
    Angry Man is angry.

    That wouldn't be anything to do with the type of server it's running on, it's application specific. The developers have chosen not to return a more informative message to you. Most likely for security reasons.


  • #74
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    GetWithIt wrote: »
    That wouldn't be anything to do with the type of server it's running on, it's application specific. The developers have chosen not to return a more informative message to you. Most likely for security reasons.
    A well designed application does what it's supposed to do and returns informative messages so that the customer knows what a problem is, for example, to supply missing information or to come back later when the server is less busy.

    Windows is for small internal office systems.

    There can't be a worse failure than announcing an online system to collect an unpopular tax and it not working.


  • #75
    Giblet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,011 ✭✭✭✭Giblet


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    A well designed application does what it's supposed to do and returns informative messages so that the customer knows what a problem is, for example, to supply missing information or to come back later when the server is less busy.

    Windows is for small internal office systems.

    There can't be a worse failure than announcing an online system to collect an unpopular tax and it not working.

    All of our clients run on Windows Server 2008 and they're huge eCommerce clients? Where do you get "small internal office systems" from?

    40k is laughable for a site that could be setup in under a week by a single developer.


  • #76
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Giblet wrote: »
    All of our clients run on Windows Server 2008 and they're huge eCommerce clients? Where do you get "small internal office systems" from?
    I'm a Unix bigot...anyway the results speak for themselves, the application is poorly designed. The message 'There was an Error processing your request' is simply unacceptable, you might get away with that sort of thing ten years ago, but not now,

    Latest news reports indicate they've backed off from sharing visit data with Google and its associates, but it's still described in the privacy statement.

    Who designed the application? Was it put out to tender?


  • #77
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Nuttzz wrote: »
    Why do you need a PPS number for this at all?

    Its to stop confusion where 2 people may have the same name or date of birth etc


  • #78
    Nuttzz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,793 ✭✭✭Nuttzz


    kceire wrote: »
    Its to stop confusion where 2 people may have the same name or date of birth etc

    but its to do with the house address, once the house is paid for why do they care who pays it?


  • #79
    GetWithIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭GetWithIt


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    I'm a Unix bigot...anyway the results speak for themselves, the application is poorly designed. The message 'There was an Error processing your request' is simply unacceptable, you might get away with that sort of thing ten years ago, but not now,
    ??
    The error message is coming from the application, not the server. Most likely this is by design. It is not a bad design to return a generic message. I'm pretty sure if there was missing information the form would indicate as much - I can't really comment as I don't have to pay the tax and so haven't used the site from end to end.

    That it is hosted on a Windows Server is neither here nor there. That you are a Unix bigot is your problem.
    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    Who designed the application? Was it put out to tender?
    I've already told you. It appears to be hosted, and was likely developed, by the LGCSB.

    At this point you appear to be just moaning for the sake of it.


  • #80
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    GetWithIt wrote:
    At this point you appear to be just moaning for the sake of it.
    You sound like you're taking this personally.

    We're discussing government websites and this one has a number of faults, would you agree?


  • #81
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Nuttzz wrote: »
    but its to do with the house address, once the house is paid for why do they care who pays it?

    But, i would imagine that as a background exercise, the Government is trying to form a database of all homes in the country and who exactly owns them.


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  • #82
    GetWithIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭GetWithIt


    I'm sure it does, but being hosted on a Windows server and returning generic error messages? I'm not sure where you're going with this. You might as well give out about the fonts.

    To clarify, I have absolutely no connection with this site, the LGCSB, any Govt body, Microsoft or the Association of Generic Error Messages.


  • #83
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Giblet wrote: »
    40k is laughable for a site that could be setup in under a week by a single developer.
    With all due respects the only thing that is laughable is such a claim.

    The development or 'set up' of any IT solution is only a small part of any development project. Certainly, if you're in your bedroom working on your own thing, where you don't need to gather requirements or an agreed spec (to cover yourself as the developer, or yourself as the client, in case you 'misunderstand' yourself) and you don't mind going back to add database fields or UI screens because you didn't design anything before you started work, then no doubt you can 'set up' a site in one week.

    For an actual client, especially a large organization - prone to office politics, 'pointy-haired' middle management, legal departments, Byzantine internal processes, limited IT understanding and the like - the development stage represents only a fraction of the overall project cycle.

    Even if there are no problems along the way, this alone will bloat the time and resources required beyond your estimate of "under a week by a single developer". Such a claim reminds me of inexperienced freelancers who think that €150 p.d. is a grand rate because they haven't cottoned on that most of their time will be spent on un-billable activities such as admin and sales, not to mention that they will not have considered expenses and taxes.

    So please tell me this was a silly throwaway comment and that you're sorry. Otherwise go sit at the scriptkiddy table.
    GetWithIt wrote: »
    That it is hosted on a Windows Server is neither here nor there. That you are a Unix bigot is your problem.
    I would tend to agree. For all of MS's faults, they tend to offer a far more integrated framework for solutions than you get elsewhere. Individual *nix components can often be better - although this too is often not the case - but that does not mean that they will work well with each other when combined. All before one considers the competence of those who developed the software or administered the hardware and network.

    I worked on a project 12 years ago that involved a very high-end enterprise Solaris set up. No MS products were used. Prior to launch (thus with no traffic load) the whole thing ran slower than an asthmatic ant carrying heavy shopping. So we quietly set the whole thing on one of our NT workstations (which cost approximately 0.1% of the production server set up) and discovered that it ran like lightning there.

    Other than being happy that this demonstrated that the consultants from the other firm, doing the server/network admin, were culpable and not our code, it exemplifies the futility in MS bashing for the sake of it.


  • #84
    Nuttzz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,793 ✭✭✭Nuttzz


    kceire wrote: »
    But, i would imagine that as a background exercise, the Government is trying to form a database of all homes in the country and who exactly owns them.

    So it might be a good idea to avail of the opt out that they give you when registering to that you dont have to give them a PPSN


  • #85
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Nuttzz wrote: »
    So it might be a good idea to avail of the opt out that they give you when registering to that you dont have to give them a PPSN

    Possibly, i havent registered yet, so not familiar with the registering process.


  • #86
    Giblet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,011 ✭✭✭✭Giblet


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    With all due respects the only thing that is laughable is such a claim.

    The development or 'set up' of any IT solution is only a small part of any development project. Certainly, if you're in your bedroom working on your own thing, where you don't need to gather requirements or an agreed spec (to cover yourself as the developer, or yourself as the client, in case you 'misunderstand' yourself) and you don't mind going back to add database fields or UI screens because you didn't design anything before you started work, then no doubt you can 'set up' a site in one week.

    For an actual client, especially a large organization - prone to office politics, 'pointy-haired' middle management, legal departments, Byzantine internal processes, limited IT understanding and the like - the development stage represents only a fraction of the overall project cycle.

    Even if there are no problems along the way, this alone will bloat the time and resources required beyond your estimate of "under a week by a single developer". Such a claim reminds me of inexperienced freelancers who think that €150 p.d. is a grand rate because they haven't cottoned on that most of their time will be spent on un-billable activities such as admin and sales, not to mention that they will not have considered expenses and taxes.

    So please tell me this was a silly throwaway comment and that you're sorry. Otherwise go sit at the scriptkiddy table.

    I'm talking about implementation, not requirements spec or design + test, but I've worked on sites that went from 0 - Production in a few weeks, and no, I don't work as a freelancer (hell I'm not even a website developer or designer, I develop eCommerce backend software), and all of our software is in-house eCommerce and associated applications. 40k is silly money for a Wordpress site that could have been shopped around. You don't need to try undermine me either with your scriptkiddy comments. I'm sure you're well respected among your peers, but I do work for a real company with real clients and I'm not sitting in my bedroom lashing out sites for the craic. If a site like this came up to us, the team would no doubt have it out in production within weeks, any team worth their salt will deliver it and support it for 20k.


  • #87
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Giblet wrote: »
    I'm talking about implementation, not requirements spec or design + test, but I've worked on sites that went from 0 - Production in a few weeks, and no, I don't work as a freelancer, and all of our software is in-house eCommerce. 40k is silly money for a Wordpress site that could have been shopped around.
    40k is silly money for most Web sites if "requirements spec or design + test" are free. And if they're not free, what then?

    I didn't suggest you were a freelancer. I suggested that you were looking at development from a simplistic viewpoint, without considering the commercial and practical implications like many inexperienced freelancers do, because while they are only really familiar with a small part of the business as they can code they're are convinced they know it all.

    In this regard, there is no such thing as "a site that could be set-up in under a week by a single developer", unless it's a low priority project (probably based on an existing work) for yourself or for a client with whom you have a close and pre-existing relationship. The other 99% of the time there will be "requirements spec or design + test" and they won't be for free, and more often than not they can account for the vast bulk of billible hours.

    So while 40 man-hours may suffice for development, you can probably add a further 60 for requirements (workshops, reviews, documentation, etc), another 20 for the spec, and another 80 for deployment, testing, change requests and post-launch SLA's, making development a fraction of the time spent on the project.

    While 40k would likely still be over the top (but this also depends on your rates), you're still looking at a considerably higher cost to the client than the one you suggested.


  • #88
    Giblet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,011 ✭✭✭✭Giblet


    I guess I'm coming from it from a "re-styled wordpress template" angle. Which means no bespoke development and a bunch of actvated plugins. The testing would amount to verifying it works in various browsers as functionality would be common to whatever other sites are deployed from the same software. It's just a shame that they spent that money on that site.


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