Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

K-9 · 08-01-2012 11:19PM

LighterGuy wrote: »

Isnt everyone going to effected by the household charge?

Even if you are renting wont landlords just pass it on? (higher rent)

With the reduction in the Rent Allowance scheme, landlords will come under pressure to reduce rents, it should negate any temptation to increase rents.

mickydoomsux · 08-01-2012 11:21PM

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Yes I'm sure it suits cronie politics to try and portray the fight for justice and equity as 'complaining', but do you know what, I'd love to leave this corrupt little backwater to fester with the now septic corruption, just as soon as SCAMA bails ordinary householders and taxpayers out, the wealthy leeches and parasites can have it all to themselves along with their serville lackies and arselickers.

Any country where it's what you know, rather than who you know, and a country that does not use ordinary taxpayers money to fund a plutocracy for secret bondholders, and the private gambling and speculation debts of fat billionaires.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA.

Pure populist rabble rousing nonsense with zero factual content and not a single workable alternative idea provided.

You're either a member/supporter of Sinn Fein or the SWP i take it? You spout their brand of delusional garbage.

JeffK88 · 08-01-2012 11:52PM

Ban me if you like but if your going to pay this household charge your a fool. Grow a set of balls ... take your head out of your arse if you pay the household charge your nothing but backstabbing scumbags. as bad as the bankers and the politicians who ruined this country. Irish being as they always have been bending over the barrel and letting everybody have a go. Sure it'll be grand attitude . pay your 100 euro charge and watch as the taxes increase and the 'Good' little citizens will pay always. Pricks ...I welcome the ban from this forum

The Quadratic Equation · 09-01-2012 12:06AM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

BWAHAHAHAHAHA.

Pure populist rabble rousing nonsense with zero factual content and not a single workable alternative idea provided.

You're either a member/supporter of Sinn Fein or the SWP i take it? You spout their brand of delusional garbage.

I have no faith in any politician of any type, as honest people do not go into Irish politics.
How much did some corrupt cronie buy you for to be their lackie ? what favours and crumbs from the dinner dance table are they throwing you good little doggie ?

theTinker · 09-01-2012 01:13AM

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

May I ask you a simple question?

How do you think the gap between public expenditure v's revenue should be closed. Take it at c. Eur15bn (which is low) and give me a sense of the broad approach you would take (and what new taxes / expenditure cuts you would support).

In fact I throw that question over to all the people who are stating they will refuse to pay this minimal charge.

Let's actually hear something constructive for once instead of the constant whinging and moaning about a Mickey Mouse charge that will address about 1% of the problem.

Or do the freeloaders have any proposals at all?

Pardon the delay. I was out for the day.

freeloaders is a bit insulting, no harm is simply just asking a question to people who dont agree with the charge. Most have been working hard and paying taxes all thier lives, labeling them as freeloaders is quite unfair just because they disagree with something new being charged.

For your question.
Regards taxes, I think people should pay more for health care in this country. Its VERY cheap and quite frankly too expensive to provide at these levels. I'd keep it free for people under a certain income or charge people slowly over long periods if they use it. I'm a big believer in people paying for Services they are using.

Motor tax for roads for example, is exactly the type of charge i agree with. However, I can see the unfairness in only people with cars paying this and dont see how people using public transport shouldnt pay. We all eventually depend on the roads for our uses. I'd increase this to make all earners pay.

I disagree with the property tax because I've bought an item. I didnt agree to pay anything after it other than my mortgage and associated bills. I think its unfair that in the past I bought something with my own cash under certain agreements, then in the future that some can charge me for owning it. This is no different than a microwave.

I agree with paying taxes for services being used. Water, TV license(though i think rte should be privatised and only slightly subsidised for the agreement of remaining forceable to show any goverment requested interviews, addresses. This license is stupid, you should pay if you recieve RTE and thats thats.), garbage collection, garda forces, etc etc.

Basically anything that I as a citizen use, and can be shown a bill for. I'd pay.
I do not think its ok to charge people for random past purchases just to make up shortfalls. Charge more for services if they are costing more. This way the right people are getting charged.

I think the allocation of money to each sector and requirement should NOT be all thrown into a big pot of gold which is just used for everything. I thiink services should be run from the income they are taxed for. It would be alot more transperant.

I'd try introduce a taxation aimed more at financial services who cream so much in profits without paying alot of taxes its shameful. I cant label my experience in this as it might cause issue if work colleagues recognise it but ALOT of money could be made here.

I would start bridging the gap between expenditure and income (assuming the current state of affairs could of not been averted) by increasing the tax income by employing jobs and cutting social welfare. I myself have been on social welfare for 2 years. I only got off it this week after a long endless job searching and reskilling. However I learnt that its far too generous for most people. The number of people i met in the office, post office, over heard conversations, that were clearly taking the **** out of the system was incredible. Horrible.
I'd incentivise snitching on false claims and abuse of the SW system. A few hundred per succesfully reported claim. I think it would really help things. People love bragging about thier abuses in this country. Lets use that mentality against them. The social security needs to be dramatically cut. Its a large part of our deficit.
I think alot of people are too cushy on it, I often felt like i hardly had any reason to get a job from a financial perspective since mininium wage and dole are so close together for so much more time required.

Health care needs to dramatically tackled. Its just obscene. Its a huge job but there are dramatic ineffencies in this. This takes alot of money from our big pot of gold.

Banks, I HATE that we are saving unsecure bondholders but i do see the reasoning. I'd probably leave these the same but i'd certainly try come up with some system that stops this mindless mindset of too big to fail setups.

I'd like to set up state manfacturing companies to employ our huge unemployed base since we are paying them already. This could hugely help our export industry. These assets could be grown and then sold off if required for more income. This would help with the income side of the equation and get some value from our large SW expenditure. I think a big problem with our economy and that of most 1st world nations is that they move away from export and creating geniune items of value. They begin to offer service based systems which eventually seem to collapse and bubble burst.

I think i'd agree with more income tax but i'd prefer to see more taxes on services being used. Especially on a per use basis as I believe strongly in choice.

As you can see, Im far from opposed to paying more to help our country proposer and grow. However im very much against randomily charging for items i've already purchased.

theTinker · 09-01-2012 01:18AM

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The household charge IS a wealth tax, obviously.

I disagree with this. I think many would. I am on a average salary by all that i read. I simply saved hard and dont splurge on items i dont need. I dont spend much on booze and entertainment. Im pretty frugile when i can be.

I bought my house and i pay my mortgage. The goverment got thier stamp duty, and they get thier tax from all the services I use to maintain and live in my home.

A wealth tax should be charge at higher income tax.

I tried really hard to get a home for myself. Im now going to be fined yearly for it. Ever increasing with attachments proposed...

K-9 · 09-01-2012 01:21AM

People would have been against motor tax when it was introduced on the same basis. A random past purchase taxed for the craic.

mandate · 09-01-2012 01:51AM

Are people sent a bill in the post, or some official government-headed letter requesting they pay it and detailing where and how this can be done? If you don't get a bill, then how are you expected to pay it? That is what I fail to understand. It is being very badly implemented if you don't get some official correspondance by the government.
This has probably been discussed in previous posts, so pardon me if I don't wade through it all to see if it has.

K-9 · 09-01-2012 02:12AM

mandate wrote: »

Are people sent a bill in the post, or some official government-headed letter requesting they pay it and detailing where and how this can be done? If you don't get a bill, then how are you expected to pay it? That is what I fail to understand. It is being very badly implemented if you don't get some official correspondance by the government.
This has probably been discussed in previous posts, so pardon me if I don't wade through it all to see if it has.

Self Assessment is part of the tax system for years. If you set up a business, it is up to you to register and file a tax return. It isn't up to Revenue to come to you.

SeanLEFT · 09-01-2012 02:25AM

JeffK88 wrote: »

Ban me if you like but if your going to pay this household charge your a fool. Grow a set of balls ... take your head out of your arse if you pay the household charge your nothing but backstabbing scumbags. as bad as the bankers and the politicians who ruined this country. Irish being as they always have been bending over the barrel and letting everybody have a go. Sure it'll be grand attitude . pay your 100 euro charge and watch as the taxes increase and the 'Good' little citizens will pay always. Pricks ...I welcome the ban from this forum

and where will you be when my wages are docked ?

LighterGuy · 09-01-2012 02:42AM

K-9 wrote: »

With the reduction in the Rent Allowance scheme, landlords will come under pressure to reduce rents, it should negate any temptation to increase rents.

I know what you mean.
But that 100 euro needs to be paid, and you know yourself that landlords would rather the tennant pay it than themselves. If some guy was renting out a house he'd only have to tag on 8 euro a month to cover the charge.

I'm expecting tennants to be complaining about a slight rise in rent in the next few months.

donalg1 · 09-01-2012 10:51AM

Am Chile wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/jail-sentences-for-joe-higgins-and-clare-daly-114124.html

There,s a hell of a difference between the anti household tax campaign and the previous anti bin tax campaign, the anti bin tax wasn,t nationwide, it was more in the bigger cities like dublin, when the anti bin tax campaign was going on I never recalled any public meetings in my town about it, the anti household tax campaign was held over 100 crowded meetings all around the country in every county which the anti bin tax campaign never did, plus the anti bin tax campaign didn,t have 18 tds on its side all boycotting like the anti household tax campaign does,as well as a signifigant number of councilers prepared to boycott too,to anyone like you who comes across as Il pay but reluctanly, I just say,hold off until the middle of march,and see the anti household tax campaign is going in your local area.

Seriously ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

mandate · 09-01-2012 10:51AM

K-9 wrote: »

Self Assessment is part of the tax system for years. If you set up a business, it is up to you to register and file a tax return. It isn't up to Revenue to come to you.

when I was self employed in Ireland, I was sent a letter from Revenue asking to complete form 11 and return it by a certain date. I recieved this letter every year up to last year. I would expect that the same one to one correspondance or notification would be applied to the household charge.

ilovesleep · 09-01-2012 12:26PM

JeffK88 wrote: »

Ban me if you like but if your going to pay this household charge your a fool. Grow a set of balls ... take your head out of your arse if you pay the household charge your nothing but backstabbing scumbags. as bad as the bankers and the politicians who ruined this country. Irish being as they always have been bending over the barrel and letting everybody have a go. Sure it'll be grand attitude . pay your 100 euro charge and watch as the taxes increase and the 'Good' little citizens will pay always. Pricks ...I welcome the ban from this forum

I have to agree with this.

There has been so much crap thrown upon this nation. Nobody is happy with the situation where politicians built this country on cheap credit. Things fell down and we were sold to the banks. Developers saved from their greedy business dealings. Politicians over inflated pay packs protected with the CPA.

People are propping up a corrupt system that is full of greed and selfishness at the top.

ilovesleep · 09-01-2012 12:41PM

I realise there is a deficit of 18 B or so (is that deficit dropping by the way after last years budget or has is remained at 18 B since winter 2010) and measures and big ones have to be taken to close that deficit.

But:

Anglo needs another bailout of 36 Billion: http://www.politics.ie/forum/economy/179249-confidential-plan-anglo-ibrc-will-need-36-7bn-2015-15-9bn-2019-a.html

Galtee · 09-01-2012 12:49PM

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

I'll try to make it simple for you.

The country is spending more than it is earning. That cannot be sustained. we need to either earn more or spend less. I know you mind find that tricky, but why don't you sleep on it. It might be clearer tomorrow.

You might think you are paying too many taxes / too much tax or not getting enough of the things you like. But all the services and infrastructure that you use has to be created and maintained by someone & Gunther has decided he doesn't give a toss whether it is there or not anymore.

Re: Banks. Try to read my comments again. Transferring or repaying Bank debt with ECB or IMF money is not taking it out of the Irish taxpayers pocket. The only impact so far is that the nominal Interest rate on our debt has increased. Again, it really doesn't matter, because it only applies to the most recent part of our National debt at this point, and any interest that is being repaid is being repaid by ECB / IMF money.

My key point is that we have to get our own house in order. Everyone will have to take their share of pain. It has to apply to the masses at this stage as if you tax the wealthy anymore they will remove their wealth and entrepreneurship from this country.

I have no problem with telling all bondholders (Prizebonds, Irish pensions and all) to go and bite our collective kipper if they think we will repay the full national debt, but I'd prefer to have our exchequer position in balance (net of interest on debt) before we do that. That way if the supply of finance is cut, we won't see 'Real' hardship on our doorsteps.

People need to grow up. The gap between public expenditure and income is our problem. Not the greedy bankers / developers or bad bad politicians. If we don't sort our own problem, someone else will.

Pay your household charge, or if you don't want to, take the consequences (quietly please).

I appreciate you making it simple for me, it's most kind of you, I'm already paying enough tax, and don't really want to tax my brain on top of it. I'll try and reciprocate.

We do agree on one maybe two things, one of them being the exchequer deficit is most certainly the problem.

I not so sure we agree on why though. You say that we haven't paid a red cent back from tax and I find this a bizarre statement. The whole reason the taxes have been raised for the last 5 budgets, is to close the deficit that was opened primarily by the amount of money paid to banks. Consequently, the current deficit has been largely caused by the cumulative servicing of debt as a direct result of loans that were used to bailout banks. It doesn't really matter if we sit down and record actual serial numbers on notes to determine which notes are being used to service the debt (although this does sound like a government method of reporting depending on who they are pitching to). The cost of servicing the debt in 2011 was 5.4bn as per the department of finace figures on the exchequer for 2011. This was 4bn in 2010 and god knows what in 2008 & 2009. Also, to account for the budget adjustments, there was a budget deficit of €1.7bn in 2007 and since then there has been budget adjustments of .5bn, 1bn, 2bn, 3.3bn and 3.6bn which is year on year BTW and would more than account for the adjustment to unemployment figures. For the record, tax receipts last year were 31.7bn. PRSI on top of that is another circa 9bn bringing it up over the 40bn mark. Revenue from state bodies is not factored in to this figure to the best of my knowledge. So where the hell is all the money going???

And as for your comment saying that if you do this the super rich will leave, IMHO that shows a complete lack of respect for your fellow man, the ordinary worker who is out trying to grind a living and being taxed to the hilt on it meaning he has very little left over by comparison to the guys on higher income. That is the exact mentality that got us into this mess, leave the super rich alone and target the weak. Everyone should share the burden, agreed, but it should be relative to what you earn, a donkey with liqourice legs could tell you that.

Frank Black · 09-01-2012 01:00PM

Galtee wrote: »

Everyone should share the burden, agreed, but it should be relative to what you earn, a donkey with liqourice legs could tell you that.

No doubt some donkey with liqourice legs will once again try to explain to you that the vast majority of tax is paid by a minority of higher eraning tax-payers.
No doubt you will continue to ignore this.

Still, why let facts stand in the way of a bit bit of sloganeering.

Galtee · 09-01-2012 01:19PM

black francis wrote: »

No doubt some donkey with liqourice legs will once again try to explain to you that the vast majority of tax is paid by a minority of higher eraning tax-payers.
No doubt you will continue to ignore this.

Still, why let facts stand in the way of a bit bit of sloganeering.

Wow, I could have sworn I used the word relative in there somewhere yet you chose to ignore it? It doesn't matter that the majority of tax is paid by the minority of high earners if they're left with 20 times more than the average joe each month and the average joe is on the breadline.

what a day · 09-01-2012 01:32PM

Ok, so can some one please explain to an idiot like myself who wont have to pay this tax? Im gonna do every thing i can not to pay it as i own my own home and im not paying another penny for it.

Frank Black · 09-01-2012 01:57PM

Galtee wrote: »

Wow, I could have sworn I used the word relative in there somewhere yet you chose to ignore it? It doesn't matter that the majority of tax is paid by the minority of high earners if they're left with 20 times more than the average joe each month and the average joe is on the breadline.

Ah, now I see, what you want is for everyone to be left with the same disposable income after paying their tax.

Good luck with trying to advance that as a sensible policy alternative.

Galtee · 09-01-2012 02:27PM

black francis wrote: »

Ah, now I see, what you want is for everyone to be left with the same disposable income after paying their tax.

Good luck with trying to advance that as a sensible policy alternative.

I just think the government should tax the people who can afford it instead of those who can't. You're right, it'll never catch on.

Am Chile · 09-01-2012 02:32PM

SeanLEFT wrote: »

and where will you be when my wages are docked ?

You re easily beleiving what the goverment tells you, They will have to initiate court proceedings in order to do that. with signifigant numbers boycotting the household tax they would have to initiate proceedings against of thousands of people than the system will collapse.

An attachment order is issued when the person who has been sued has not complied with an order from the court to pay the alleged debt.

First you would have to apply to the district court for a decree, (if the sum is less than €6,348, which in most cases regarding this issue it will be) and assuming this is unchallenged, you may win a judgment and the judge may then issue an order for the alleged debtor to pay you.

If the debtor does not pay you, then you may seek an attachment order.

But mark my words, this will be challenged every step of the way.

Last its not even in present law at the moment, the very fact this is being threatened means the establishment knows dam well the vast majority Intend on boycotting, they are only trying to Intimidate people into paying by this threat, oh we dock from your wages.

For anyone who doesn,t think the goverment are afraid of a mass boycott taking place, consider this analogy, when the tax on second homes,was Introduced no media outlet published an alleged list of numbers paying in the first few days, why was that? the goverment never made any threats to dock money not paid with the second home tax from peoples wages, why was that? the goverment never threatened to track people not paying the second home tax with esb bills, why was that?

Frank Black · 09-01-2012 02:45PM

Galtee wrote: »

I just think the government should tax the people who can afford it instead of those who can't.

Great Slogan.

Galtee · 09-01-2012 02:48PM

black francis wrote: »

Great Slogan.

It's just common sense. Even a black francis should know that.

Frank Black · 09-01-2012 02:57PM

Galtee wrote: »

It's just common sense.

And another.

I can see the t-shirt now.

mickydoomsux · 09-01-2012 03:01PM

Galtee wrote: »

black francis wrote: »

Ah, now I see, what you want is for everyone to be left with the same disposable income after paying their tax.

Good luck with trying to advance that as a sensible policy alternative.

I just think the government should tax the people who can afford it instead of those who can't. You're right, it'll never catch on.

The already do that. People under a certain income pay little or no PAYE.

This household charge is akin to VAT, motor tax, etc. It disregards your earnings so everyone pays. Try going to court and arguing you shouldn't have to pay motor tax or VAT because you only earn a couple of hundred bucks a week.

Galtee · 09-01-2012 03:02PM

black francis wrote: »

And another.

I can see the t-shirt now.

And another. :rolleyes: I think you're getting confused between sentences and slogans?

Galtee · 09-01-2012 03:04PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The already do that. People under a certain income pay little or no PAYE.

This household charge is akin to VAT, motor tax, etc. It disregards your earnings so everyone pays. Try going to court and arguing you shouldn't have to pay motor tax or VAT because you only earn a couple of hundred bucks a week.

The mentioning of the taxing of the richer that you're quoting pertains to income tax, ie as an alternative method of raising the tax they need.

mickydoomsux · 09-01-2012 03:12PM

Galtee wrote: »

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The already do that. People under a certain income pay little or no PAYE.

This household charge is akin to VAT, motor tax, etc. It disregards your earnings so everyone pays. Try going to court and arguing you shouldn't have to pay motor tax or VAT because you only earn a couple of hundred bucks a week.

The mentioning of the taxing of the richer that you're quoting pertains to income tax, ie as an alternative method of raising the tax they need.

So we should disproportionately tax the rich?

But I thought we all wanted fairness.

Bullseye1 · 09-01-2012 03:15PM

I see the people still working will be subsidising the population in local authority housing further. This government really is a government for the whole population. If 2 euros a week is okay for the rest of us why not for those in public authority housing?

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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