What's the state of Airsoft In Ireland From A Commercial Point Of View

Typhon · 01-12-2011 05:47PM

Hey guys, sorry for slightly jacking here but did AWOL (QAS / TNT) close down now also? :eek:

Leftyflip · 01-12-2011 06:05PM

Typhon wrote: »

Hey guys, sorry for slightly jacking here but did AWOL (QAS / TNT) close down now also? :eek:

Gone since the middle of September...

Airsoft Reloded · 01-12-2011 06:17PM

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't see many shops enticing me to buy something on a whim , and I don't see sites enticing me to visit them when I'm not a normal visitor.

So either yous are all fine and its just an out loud cry, or maybe commercial entities could crunch some numbers and see if maybe there is some deals that can be done, special offers and some marketing.

How would a site entise yourself to visit Doc? We have start doing inhouse (member only) milsims to accomadate those that like the slow stealthy play but how would you get the likes of yourself to try it?

I think to many sites pool from the same group of people because we survive on rentals outside our normal opening hours and the numbers there hasn't changed in the last few years (That's not to say that we are loaded because we are far from it) but I have noticed a drop in airsofters in the last while.

TheDoc wrote: »

I know cost price on items has shifted a little bit, but unless I'm drastically way off the mark ( which I doubt I am) I dont see a retailer not being able to sell a high end rifle with a half price pistol, and still make a good profit from it.

In defence of Irish retailers the running costs of a retail outlet can be extremely high when you count rates, rent, bills and staff. If you are to nice price wise you close.

There is a great mark up on the euipment but once you take everything else away from it your not looking at a lot of money.

hightower1 · 01-12-2011 06:23PM

I think licensing is the way to go with Irish airsoft. Sure we cant license the rifs but we can license the player.

Co operation between the IAA and the Gardai would be paramount were every station in the country would need to have a short briefing on airsoft, the IAA would need to have official garda seals added to the site and documentation and all IAA membershop cards would need the IAA seal with the same from the gardai. Legislation would need to be actually enatcted i.e retailers would need to be issued licenses to import / sell comercially (which is in current law but not enforced), on purchasing RIFs you should need an IAA license. This would also allow you to own any airsoft gun and would have to be presented when purchasing in store.

This would all cost money to do so a fair yearly charge for the license would be needed, say 50eur? This would partly fund the IAA. Retailers licenses would also have to be paid for and again go twords the IAAs ongoing costs.

The benfits of this system would majorly cut down the amount of yobbos selling cheap airsoft items, cut down the amount of muppets buying them in turn, solidify airsoft in Ireland as being a more recognized sport / past time, be a better point of contact for players / retailers and provide a string back bone for Irish airsoft. To date from my personal experience boards.ie has been my backbone for airsoft since I got into it but if we could shift that focus to a properly consolidated and accredited (with the gardai) organization and or relationship with the IAA airsoft would really be set up for growth in this country.

gerrowadat · 02-12-2011 01:36AM

hightower1 wrote: »

I think licensing is the way to go with Irish airsoft. Sure we cant license the rifs but we can license the player.

Co operation between the IAA and the Gardai would be paramount were every station in the country would need to have a short briefing on airsoft, the IAA would need to have official garda seals added to the site and documentation and all IAA membershop cards would need the IAA seal with the same from the gardai. Legislation would need to be actually enatcted i.e retailers would need to be issued licenses to import / sell comercially (which is in current law but not enforced), on purchasing RIFs you should need an IAA license. This would also allow you to own any airsoft gun and would have to be presented when purchasing in store.

This would all cost money to do so a fair yearly charge for the license would be needed, say 50eur? This would partly fund the IAA. Retailers licenses would also have to be paid for and again go twords the IAAs ongoing costs.

The benfits of this system would majorly cut down the amount of yobbos selling cheap airsoft items, cut down the amount of muppets buying them in turn, solidify airsoft in Ireland as being a more recognized sport / past time, be a better point of contact for players / retailers and provide a string back bone for Irish airsoft. To date from my personal experience boards.ie has been my backbone for airsoft since I got into it but if we could shift that focus to a properly consolidated and accredited (with the gardai) organization and or relationship with the IAA airsoft would really be set up for growth in this country.

There was legislation signed into law two years ago to license RIF retailers (of which there are about a dozen in the country). It hasn't been implemented yet. This should give you an idea of how much time the DoJ/Gardai have for airsoft, both practically and figuratively.

You can license players all you like, but they'll just buy stuff for non-licensees, and the RIF are untraceable. This is widespread in the UK with the UKARA system. Unless you can actually hope to enforce it, it's just red tape achieving nothing.

sliabh · 02-12-2011 09:54AM

gerrowadat wrote: »

You can license players all you like, but they'll just buy stuff for non-licensees, and the RIF are untraceable. This is widespread in the UK with the UKARA system. Unless you can actually hope to enforce it, it's just red tape achieving nothing.

It will also raise the bar to entering the sport, and reduce the amount of money coming from "casual" players. And for sites and retailers to survive (even though we have too many doing a poor job, rather than a few doing a good one) more money is needed.

bullets · 02-12-2011 11:43AM

hightower1 wrote: »

I think licensing is the way to go with Irish airsoft. Sure we cant license the rifs but we can license the player.

This would all cost money to do so a fair yearly charge for the license would be needed, say 50eur? This would partly fund the IAA. Retailers licenses would also have to be paid for and again go twords the IAAs ongoing costs.

People that Shoot/firearms owners would LOVE this! License the Person and not the Gun!!! But nope they pay 80 Euros every 3 years for each and every gun they own with the serial number on each licence.

I really cant see Airsoft being able to get a licence for the person allowing them to buy multiple airsoft guns. (If its not been done for real-steel its pretty unlikely not to be done for either paintball or airsoft)
(Interesting that theres a tick box for paintball gun/marker when filling in a firearms licence application form! though :-) )

(Some shooters bitch about the price of a firearms licence being 80 Euros for 3 years so I'm guessing a lot of people could bitch about paying 50 Euros per year for an airsoft licence if one existed. Personally I would not mind)

I've no interest in the sporting element of Airsoft but mainly in the hobby end of things. The Likes of UKARA in england scares me, I dont want to be
forced to skirmish if I dont want to, or to buy a dayglow gun if I'm not a member of an skirmishing venue. When people use the term "Sport" to describe airsoft, its one of the few sports where people would buy the sporting equipment not necessarily to play the sport.
If I was to guess (without having facts to back up my opinion) I would say most of the guns bought from airsoft shops in Ireland are not used for the sporting end of airsoft with actual skirmishers making up the lesser part of sales)

I initially had wanted to Collect De-activated Real Guns.
This meant needing to get a letter of permission from a Local Superintendant as well as other things. With experience of the local Gardai's lack of knowledge on all things guns and their attitude towards them, I felt
it would be an up-hill battle to have a large collection.

When I discovered Airsoft it suited me specifically because you did not
need to have any interaction with the Gardai to justify why you wanted to
purchase something (or lots of somethings) that looked like a real gun.

You did not need a licence, you did not need to pay for anything other than the gun, you did not have to have any dealings with the gardai or anyone else.

If such a licence existed for Airsoft I would happily pay for one.
But you'd end up facing a lot of the same frustrations that firearms owners
and people who collect de-activated guns face.

~B

ricka · 02-12-2011 12:45PM

The skirmishers market in Ireland is irrelevent to a retailers survival.
If you dont cater for plinkers you cannot survive.
Only 20% of our business is to gamers and sites.
Bored 30+ Dad's, kids with their Mums, that's where the business is.The guns they buy, might be used 3 or 4 times, then thrown in a corner.
Airsoft guns are a toy and in general no different from any other toy, disgaurded after a couple of weeks.
All the big retailers recognise this and chase that business.Some may not like it but that's how it is.
QAS are a good example of what happens if you try to survive by catering for the Airsoft community alone

If an individual license element comes into play then most, if not all of the retailers would be gone.I understand from your point of view...so what? and I wouldn't argue with that, but obiviously I'd prefer if that didn't happen

gerrowadat · 02-12-2011 04:59PM

bullets wrote: »

(Interesting that theres a tick box for paintball gun/marker when filling in a firearms licence application form! though :-) )

A paintball marker is a firearm under irish law as it shoots over a joule.

bullets · 02-12-2011 07:00PM

gerrowadat wrote: »

A paintball marker is a firearm under irish law as it shoots over a joule.

yes but no serial number so faces the same issue as an over the limit airsoft gun if ya actually are mad enough to try and licence it. (apart from getting your engraving tool out and making up a number) With the Markers always thought paintballers just needed a letter of permission from their local Super.

(I'd love a paintball marker just to have to plink with but I reckon I'd have a hard time trying to justify needing one if I dont even play paint ball)

I Never thought of what Ricka mentioned the way bringing in any form
of licensing to airsoft for individuals would negatively affect retailers.

~B

Inari · 02-12-2011 11:58PM

ricka wrote: »

I understand from your point of view...so what? and I wouldn't argue with that, but obiviously I'd prefer if that didn't happen

There is a very specific reason I would argue that. Two words; importation ban. As part of the European directive to remove guns and gun-shaped items from the postal service, the Irish government introduced legislation that says it is illegal to personally import gear, that you need to go through a licensed importer. If you make it so that retailers cannot survive, then how do you buy that nice looking shooty-stick on E-HobbyAsia? And that for me is the crux of the issue.

With regard to supporting Irish retailers...it's all about knowing where to shop. I have bought Irish, and I have bought abroad. I will continue to do so. Like you, skirmishers, I know where to go for what items I need. I know that very few Irish retailers, if any, will carry an NPAS kit suitable for a KWA/Umarex H&K MK23 NS2 GBB, so online/abroad it is. On items available domestically I am happy to pay a little bit extra in-store if it keeps the Irish airsoft retailers in business, because guess what, I like to pick things up and try before I buy. That MK23 I mentioned? I would not have bought that if I had held it before hand.

For me it is the same outside of Airsoft - sure I can order DVD's online, wait a couple of days, and then watch them...or I can walk into a store and buy them and be able to watch them right away. I can order a guitar online, and wait, or I can buy in-store and if I have problems I have a face to talk to, instead of having scores upon scores of emails with people. You can save in some areas, and end up paying through the teeth in others. By all means know exactly what you're buying, but remember to search for the best deal and not get hung up entirely on price

What Ricka had started saying in this thread has been lost along the way, so I will reiterate:
- Legal grey area in operations (retailers importing guns etc)
- Status of the retailer licenses (still pending - no proper definites)
- Site owners not knowing who to go to in order to ensure they have everything above board etc.
- Head-in-sand approach to all things Airsoft...the fact of the matter is we know sweet FA about most things here, and we take it on assumption and good faith. Very few of us (I can't say none, as someone here on Boards.ie has been privvy to it) know Garda Ballistics testing procedure, and thus are unsure the exact definition of legality surrounding power limits e.g. gas rifles with NPAS, AEG's with adjustable FPS, quick-change spring systems etc, legal definition of RIF etc. There is a LOT of assumption, not a lot of answers, and that is a problem. Unfortunately law tends to prefer the comfort of grey area, relying on court

I do agree with many posts in this thread - the market is just adjusting, no doubt. However it is still a little worrying how much we take on faith. M203 grenades, guns running on different gases, the overall strength of the gun's internals being capable of firing over the limits etc. I guess...I guess I would just love clear clean cut answers and definitions:
This is fine. That is not. You can do this. You can't do that. Why? It provides you with the framework in which you can truly evolve, and evolve without fear of having to close down all of a sudden.

TheDoc · 04-12-2011 01:11AM

I genuinely don't get it when people mention we should license airsofters?

Where does this idea come from, and in what way can it in anyway be beneficial ?

I'm not being smart, I've heard it before, and there is ****all benefits to it, only downsides and heartache.

Its like it comes from people who want to pretend they are real steel shooters

My local station tells me to go **** a duck when I enquire about licensing for non firing replica pistols, I'm pretty sure I'd get raped if I asked for a form to license my toy gun.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Toy guns

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Lemming · 04-12-2011 01:56AM

I'm with Doc on the licensing of airsofters. I'm registered with UKARA; it's not such a big deal if you're a skirmisher, but if you're not ... you're screwed. Anyone who thinks that licensing airsofters is the way forward that may be influenced by the UK situation needs to remember one important fact. One very important fact at that;

the UKARA-proposed 'skirmisher defence' (ergo effectively a 'licensing scheme' of sorts) was a last desperate attempt at compromise with the UK home office in order to keep airsoft in the UK as the then VCRB * originally had airsoft written out of legal existence except for filming and re-enactment. The defence was eventually written into the VCRB which became the VCRA ** but only after a significant amount of lobbying and consultative legwork.

The defence works albeit as a very imperfect solution. It's clumsy and clunky, and really only for people who play airsoft. Collectors and plinkers are completely stuffed unfortunately, as is anyone under the age of eighteen who wishes to purchase a RIF.

I really can't see a similar solution working any better in Ireland tbh.

* Violent Crime Reduction Bill
** Violent Crime Reduction Act, Oct 1st 2007

AirsoftEire.com · 14-12-2011 01:20AM

Just stumbled upon this thread as I don't read the Airsoft section on Boards anywhere near as much as I used to. This thread makes for grim enough reading and its a shame.

What do I make of Airsoft in Ireland at the moment? Well the one thing that stands out is that there is no direction or organisation to anything; everything seems "up in the air". And without a doubt the biggest cause of this is the lack of communication with the Gardaí and the Dept. of Justice. The message is quite clear from them, they don't give a toss.

In my experience, airsoft could not be any further down their list of priorities. You would not believe the level of lack of knowledge in the Gardaí regarding airsoft that I have encountered and heard first hand from other site owners and retailers. 6 years on and not only do regular Gardaí not have a clue what airsoft is, the sergeants don't, the superintendents don't and even the ERU don't. This is true right down the east cost from everyone i've spoken too, incredible stuff. And try getting through to someone in the Dept. of Justice where people are constantly being shifted around and different people answering the phone daily in the same office and you really wonder if anyone knows/cares that airsoft even exists here.

The only people that are 100% aware of us (retailers) are Revenue, surprise, surprise. Beyond that, there isn't a lot of interest in government departments that I can make out.

Just something that angered me was Docs statement about Irish prices and how we're "doing it wrong". Catch a grip, I will eat my hat if you yourself can order even x500 KJ 1911s direct from KJ themselves, import them paying your VAT, duty, shipping and business costs and sell them at €102 and make more than €5 a piece. I would expect more from you than making a fleeting statement like that. You know the cost of business here, you know the cost of rates, rent, insurance etc, why would you make us out to be rip-off merchants? You got a nice warranty with that KJ 1911 you ordered too I presume?

I also got a vibe from this thread that retailers don't get on and that we all hate each other. There's not one retailer I have a single problem with and in fact its quite the opposite, I enjoy the occasional banter we have and its great to hear from others in the business. I personally would love to have a commercial group that has the retailers/site owners interests in mind, it would be a great forum with a louder voice that a few of us working independently.

Also saw a few blows at Derek mentioned, personally I find Derek a wealth of information on what's going with the Justice/customs crowd, as he without a doubt has had the most hassle from every aspect of the law, be it gardai/customs/firearms dept/dept justice etc. We're not "in" with any other retailers and I have absolutely no problem with anyone in the industry.

In regards airsoft as a sport, well all I can call from is personal exerience. Airsoft is doing extremely well here in Louth, it has really taken off in the last 2 years and we've just got bigger and bigger. We have zero affiliation to any local sites, but they are contributing in a big way to our business, the main ones being ADA and Bellurgan Park. There are a fantastic group of players and loyal customers up here and I have zero complaints about business. I often feel we are somewhat isolated up here in Dundalk from the goings-on in airsoft nationwide as the next closest shop is 50 odd miles away and then you have the incredibly poor selection on the other side of the border. We send a lot of items out nationwide to many locations where airsoft shops are non-existent and that helps us a lot on any slow days we have. I like to think our website gives something of an instore feel without having to make the journey, that is, give as much stock information, product information and imagery as you possible can, which gives people across the country better access to airsoft products,.

What would I like to see in regards the law? As touched on, some kind of 1-2 joule permit for retailers, allowing them to downgrade before sale. The airsoft industry is not made for 1 joule, to expect us to run an airsoft industry with sub 1 joule guns on import makes things very difficult and limits selection. We turn away special orders daily because of it.

I would like to see a standard implemented in regard chronographing, whereby all sites and shops have the same chronograph and all measure according to the same guidelines.

I would like to see the closing down of I don't know how many shops/markets who are selling airsoft products, who are not registered for VAT and who are not paying any duty on import. Some of these shops might surprise you, you can spot them by noting their prices, some 20-25% cheaper than the main stores.

I'm not so sure any kind of registration system is needed for the ownership of airsoft guns, certainly not until I could see some statistics/reports of why it needs to be required. Dual tone is utterly pointless in my view, as are red tips. UKARA seems to have destroyed airsoft retail, certainly in northern ireland. Licensing retailers is a must in my view.

I would still love to see some kind of TV promotion for airsoft. The only piece I have seen was on Nationwide over a year ago and was all but 90 seconds long. It would be great to get a nice 10 minute segment in their next sport programme.

Steve

Murphino · 15-12-2011 10:04PM

Better late than never...

Firstly, as someone who has entered the sport in the last year or so and has brought other players with me, I’d like to point out that Airsoft by and large is a fantastic past time with lots of potential in Ireland. The turning point was a brief chat with an enthusiastic gamer in an airsoft shop on Talbot street in Dublin who encouraged me to game, it started there, 4 of us, over €2k later and counting, we’re having a ball!

The reason I post is as follows…there are the obvious threats such as changes to legislation, an Garda Siochana, rising rents, planning requirements (as seems the most recent case of a venue shutting down), and I’m sure a few more but in general one of the most obvious and controllable issues is the quality of the gaming experience...marshalling, facilities and marketing…three areas I would use to describe what I think the industry should be focussing on, because quite simply you can’t control the rest.

So to the point...Airsoft has very obviously grown in recent years, I will not claim to know it all about the sport and I am not privy to what has gone before, I've read back through posts in recent years to try understand the sport's development. I say firstly hats off to those who put it on the map, lobbied for legislation and did all the difficult stuff, it has made it possible for me and my lads to pick up a new hobby in our late 20's / early 30's and get seriously enthusiastic about it in the process.

To protect this great pass time we need to focus on the quality of the gaming experience for both new and existing players, offer proper facilities, safe environments, promote the sport where possible, a big emphasis has to be placed on venue safety, and we’ve all seen examples of bad practice. Build on the good stuff, there’s an Airsoft Channel on YouTube for Irish Airsoft, seasonal events such as Zombies, Christmas events, Open Days etc., these are the things that help raise the profile of the sport.

It’s the ‘newbies’, the ‘rentals’, the one timers we need to focus on because they’re the ones that will ultimately determine the proper growth of this sport in Ireland and ultimately a sustainable industry for all concerned.

The IAA needs to have a fresh impetus, a fresh outlook, it’s easy to take the high ground, criticise them for being stale or unresponsive but who’s doing anything about it? Turn up to the AGM in the January at the Red Cow lads, become a member and vote with your feet, otherwise there’s little point in complaining.

Fallschirmjager · 25-12-2011 10:23AM

firstly happy christmas to one and all,

i am waiting in our 6year old and our sister in laws 4 year old and our one month old to wake up for santa so this is the calm before the storm, hence this post.

i think it is very dangerous to remove airsoft from the overall climate in this country and treat it separately. we should not. this country is not business friendly. its not tax payer friendly. as for the shop/buyer: i can also see both sides. shops under the hammer with rates and costs, customers under the hammer to pay more. i hear this issue on local costs a lot in Ireland affecting prices. that is a bigger issue here. its why we are dearer for everything. anyone here ever buy a pizza in Germany or Sweden for example? notice that price difference...because in my experience they are twice sometimes three times the price here. so its not just airsoft, its everything. we have a problem as a country not as airsoft. i also agree on the skirmisher license issues. that simply wont work. it will kill off our fledgling sport. we should resist the temptation to succumb to a short term solution as it will not work and kill us with a thousand cuts.Also i might add it is as much a sport as anything else is.

also it is not my role as a buyer to keep irish suppliers in business. thats your job. why would i buy from you. thats why you are in business, to get my business. i am not obligated to keep irish firms open, thats the role of irish firms, but we are bombarded daily by business and govt that we should feel patriotic and buy irish. thats the anti-ikea arguement or anti-tesco arguement and its a loosing proposition. its akin to standing on the west coast and trying to stop a storm with your hand. here is a weird view, how about you get competitive and get more business? the issue is government, its always government. if they allowed irish companies to compete we would rule the freaking planet. the reality of using the law as an instrument to force success onto irish suppliers is a false flag operation. yet again we have the government picking winners and loosers, and with their experience -- its generally the latter. that is crony capitalism, and quite frankly we are living the results of the last great government intervention in picking winners and loosers right now. we dont need some weird crony airsoft. what we need is a simple law and IMHO the IAA has done a great job so far on this within a screwed up system. they have kept us legal. for that i am eternally greatful. the law should state if you are caught using a hot aeg in public, you get fined etc. that is the most logical approach. that way you can import as a shop or a buyer an aeg at 500fps, since you are now wielding it in public, you can then resync it to the law for public use. now we wont get that because we dont have a government that thinks that way. we dont have a government that is there for its citizens, its there to ensure one thing, more government. we dont need more laws we need less and we need strict enforcement. again that is nothing to do with airsoft, that is an irish problem. actually its a worldwide one but i will take that up on the politics board if anyone wants a discussion.

we are in for a tough time as both players and business. players have less money due to taxes (have you noticed the drop, i certainly have). business are charged more to keep alive a system that has patently failed. what we should have is less of everything, less taxes, less onerous business costs, less laws (and enforced) and watch us grow, both in airsoft and elsewhere. what we need to realise is airsoft is a great symptom of a malaise here. its really a temperature gauge of a problem. players with less, business costing more and, well, read this thread to see the results. companies close, players drop off buying and in some cases, relatively small differences between buying abroad and here force players to risk importation and the associated risks (taxes, over powered aegs, support etc).

we are in this together. you cant look at airsoft as a commerical side unless you look at what we are all forced to do. commercial doesnt exist without players. the issue of dodgy sites, is a symptom of a problem, its telling us that the laws to create a site are all over the place. Look at what happened to Paul (legal in every way i might add) and his site as an example of the government problem. shops shutting are showing that companies cannot compete and earn a living. players paying more on vat and more on taxes means less money to buy the luxury items of airsoft. it is all interrelated. we need to resist the temptation to allow the government to pick winners, even if you are one of the winners because it is an illusion of success. they will come for you too, its just a matter of time.

anyways, its christmas, i hope your airsoft santa arrived, myself unfortunately could simply not afford it this year. i know i have a 6 year old waiting to play, lets hope by the time he is old enough to buy, we have a different approach.

merry christmas to one and all...and again this is just my opinion, dont get upset....

Airsoft Reloded · 26-12-2011 02:47PM

Business isn't really that bad but I think more legislation would help, if there were no "illegit" retailers (according to the legislation that hasn't been enacted yet) there would be more to go around to everyone else and there would be less issues with the sport itself. Retailers would also feel more comfortable making a greater investment in stock and range. For instance I saw a gun in a retail outlet and I thought it was a bit high priced, the retailer brought me over to have a look at it and then showed me the wholesale price he paid, the mark up was good but when we talked about the cost of downgrading it (Staff & stock) Stocking it (rates and rent) and then selling it (more staff) it wasn't a lot of money and the price then seemed very fair to me.

If sales were up from the fly by night lads closing down retailers could be more competitive because thier bottom line would be covered. The average price could then be lowered to an acceptable level (Not a stupidly low price to avoid other people getting the sale) because there would be no more fears of somone who isn't paying all of the above dramatically undercutting you. Buying Irish is more sensible to me because granted there is no commercial side of things without players but there is no airsoft without sites and retailers either. If it were just a load of people importing rifs in Ireland and playing on some land in the back arse of nowhere the gov would have no reason to leave it legal and either way it wouldn't be a good thing.

Protecting Irish jobs is always a good argument I think, besides I've yet to meet a retailer that won't bargain about the price when there is cash infront of them. With the running costs your normal prices couldn't be that low because you won't make money and if you make no money you close.

hightower1 · 26-12-2011 03:25PM

Maybe its just a case that airsoft in Ireland was very slow to get going and is still quite small. As a result the customer base just isnt large enough yet to justify retailers to stock large amounts and as a result of that they cannot get discounts / pass that along to the customers.

I started in airsoft about 4 years ago now and general prices seemed to have dropped over the years imo. Maybe thats competition or maybe its the retailers able to drop prices in response to growing customer demand Im not sure.

Personally I dropped around 350 on airsoft this month in airsoftguns in LMK and every time I went in there the shop seemed to be buzzing. It was a really great sight to see . Worrying on one hand were the kids with parents buying AEGs but I have to have faith that this will be ultimatly a good thing in terms of growing airsoft rather than a bad thing (such as kids not understanding RIFs and terrorising neighbourhoods :eek:). In time these kids will play or collect and add o the customer base and allow retailers stock more and more and bring pices down..... just right now, the small numbers we have , have to bear the pain of growing the sport by paying slightly higher prices in order to keep the lifeline of supply in country until retailers can do their part and get airsoft items to eager new comers.

I started off 4 years ago with an l96, thought it was the best thing ever. I had no idea of boards, the legalities or the community in general just like I would imagine a lot of kids this year BUT I found my way to the greater world of airsoft in generall and am now spending on average 1500eur a year on it (and the amount is rising....

) so perhaps some of those kids picking up their first aeg will do the same and as the community grows so too will demand, supply, and prices drop. We are just in growing pains stage right now I would imagine. Hopefully airsoft as a niche sport will ht adolecence soon.

Edit: imo all rif purchases in Ireland should include a flyer with a link to here, boards has been invaluable to me loving this sport and a huge thank you to everyone here for their contribution to the airsoft section.

TheDoc · 28-12-2011 10:32AM

Well it seems that Fingal has been closed temporarily while some paperwork gets sorted.

Interesting how I read about 3 different stories this morning, when Bren clearly states what the issue is.

Also interesting is the comments on his Facebook page by his customers underneath. Absolutely epic lols.

Do me a favour, if your going to be calling the Gaurds ****, bastards and "**** the police" because they are essentially enforcing law while some paperwork is procesed, throw your kit up on adverts there and go away.

Seriously some people....

Everyone acts like we are always the victim and that we are getting shafted. Yet you read comments like that and you shake your head. Does nothing but simply make matters worse.

And these are probably the same people who say " The IAA should be promoting airsoft" "We should take the streets in our gear and inform people about airsoft" etc etc **** idea number 4 etc etc

Everyone just needs to calm down and take a reality check on how big airsoft actually is : /

Consolidation, stabilisation and natural growth, thats the name of the game folks.

Airsoft had a little burst a while back, but we won't see the likes of it again for a good while, if ever. The next couple of years is about moving things on gradually.

People wondering why there isnt MASSIVE campaigns and massive growth every year are clearly out of touch with how the world works.

My view on how things are going to go here. There will be more site and retailer closures. Most purchases by players ( not collectors) will come from abroad, and more and more will move to buying in from abroad. New player growth will stagnate and level off.

Then we will hit a point where there will a reasonable amount of sites and retailers to support the community actively playing and purchasing. Once there is a consolidation, and focus with people buying from one or two retailers, and playing on one or two sites, the propriators of those sites and stores can invest some capital into their business to ensure repeat custom, freshness and growth.

I really don't see it any other way, youd swear there was 50,000 airsofters playing every week with the way people go on around here and on Facebook.

I'd love some sort of census, cause I would put my house on less then 500 turn out per weekend for a game, actually, would probably go with less then 200.

TheDoc · 28-12-2011 11:58AM

AirsoftEire.com wrote: »

Just something that angered me was Docs statement about Irish prices and how we're "doing it wrong". Catch a grip, I will eat my hat if you yourself can order even x500 KJ 1911s direct from KJ themselves, import them paying your VAT, duty, shipping and business costs and sell them at €102 and make more than €5 a piece. I would expect more from you than making a fleeting statement like that. You know the cost of business here, you know the cost of rates, rent, insurance etc, why would you make us out to be rip-off merchants? You got a nice warranty with that KJ 1911 you ordered too I presume?

The point I was making was something similar to the above. That while the going is tough, its only going to get worse as we are consumers are hunting for the best prices, and those prices arn't in Ireland.

I fully appreciate and understand WHY Irish retailers find it difficult to price things competitively. I'm not making anyone out to be rip off merchants, there is a simple fact that buying Irish is more expensive. And I'm buying abroad long enough not to believe in the "A but the tax will sting you" arguement anymore.

But there is no denying the very simple truth that buying abroad is cheaper now, and in my experience of buying in the past, alot less hassle then it used to be.

And yes my Pistol did come with a warranty, one of the mags arrived broken and I sent it back and had it replaced.

While I appreciate that its a sensitive subject and maybe I came accross too bluntly, but when I read about the gripes of commercial entities, which is fair enough times are hard, I can't help but think there is 101 fingers pointed in 101 directions other then the plane jane fact that our stores are ismply no longer competitive.

There was a time, a period for about 8-10 months were Irish stores were retailing as the cheapest in Europe with the best products, and alot of international trading was done. But that is definitly not the case anymore.

I guess I'm interested to know at what point do you just say " nah, this isn't going to get any better, time to pack it in"

I gather there is still a portion of people who prefer to buy Irish, buy over the counter and have some comeback ( but who hasnt had a nightmare with an irish retailer and getting a warranty honoured) but it doesn't negate my point that there seems to be a lack of inventiveness or stimulation in trying to sway me from buying abroad

(me in this context is people like me who buy abroad now)

BioHazRd · 28-12-2011 04:39PM

People need to start getting a little less precious about the sport. I define an airsofter as someone who has bought the guns, gear etc and goes out to play on an established airsoft site at least semi regularly. I hope I haven't alienated anyone here.
Now, if you were to ask any of the major retailers here what percentage of their customer base is made up of these regular airsofters, you will find the number is shockingly low. The truth is, the retailers make more sales to "non-airsofters" ie the guys (or girls) who just want to own a rif, or just plink.
Take that and mix it up with a "community" who haven't even put forward a single nomination for a position on the executive committee of the national governing body of the sport, and it all leads me to one conclusion.
Airsofters don't care about the future of their sport, they just want retailers to supply what they want at a price they feel they can dictate and then they will go and play on a site that just magically operates and if anything goes wrong in this sparkly chain of magic, they will whine like a five year old who just dropped his lolly.
I want to stress that this is a generalisation as I see it, and it doesnt apply to everyone. I know there are quite a few people out there who live in the real world, and are capable of making a beneficial difference for all of us.
I suppose, my point is, it doesn't matter what happens through our actions as a community, but anything that happens due to our inactivity is inexcusable

se conman · 29-12-2011 01:53AM

Slightly of topic but in responce to BioHazRd I think people are nervous about having their names put forward as nobody knows what they are letting themselves in for. There was to be an EGM but no report of one , there was to be an investigation into past issues but no report of one , there was to be more openness but no minutes of meetings since last March. Possible committee members don't know if there is nothing happening in the IAA or if they would be walking into a timebomb and a complete mess and they won't know unless they are told and given info.

sliabh · 30-12-2011 11:03AM

My 2c. Personally I would define an airsofter as anyone who buys an airsoft gun, though I understand most people here seem to be referring to active players and dedicated collectors when they use that term.

The reality is that the fate and vitality of the commercial side of airsofting (retailers and sites) is totally tied to the health of the airsofter side. More people spending more money (on gear or games) means the community and the commercial aspect are healthy.

Without having on the ground knowledge, it does seem from posts here that most Irish "airsofters" are one gun collectors/plinkers, and there are too many sites and shops chasing too little money. This means the commercial guys can't invest to offer better stock or more developed sites, and at the player end of the community, people go elsewhere to shop and over time skirmishers get bored and leave the sport.

If I was to put on my professional hat. You can segment Airsofters into roughly 4 categories:

One Gun Johnnys - have one cheap clone, bought second hand, in a market or a retailer. They plink from time to time in their back garden, and most lose interest in a few months or when the gun breaks. Other than the initial spend, and maybe the odd bottle of bbs they spend little, and rarely. They may not even be aware of the skirmishing scene. Will probably spend ~€40 per year (€100 gun over 3 years, and 1 bottle of bbs per year).
Casual skirmishers - They have been out to a site once or twice, or maybe even go a few times a year. They have a gun, maybe a spare mag or two and maybe a spare battery. They spend a small amount of money on sites, and bbs. They own little tactical gear or bdus. Spend: €120/year
Regulars players - Play a few times a year. They may have a backup gun and/or a side arm. They will have spent some money on some BDUs and tac gear. They might have splurged on a scope or other accessories for their main gun and they may even have opened their gun to tweak it or just to see how it works. Spend €300/year
Dedicated Airsofters - Very regular players (at least once per month) who will also travel for events. It also is the dedicated collectors with dozens of guns (e.g. Bullets). They put a lot of time, money and effort into their hobby and demand a lot in return. They own multiple guns, will have modded them, spend a lot on accessories, and gear and will spend a lot of time searching for exactly what they want when they decide they want it. A lot of that spend is abroad, but much of it (even if it is just gas and bbs) is in Ireland. Spend: €1000/year.

Now obviously as people move down this list their spending and involvement in the sport increase. They are demanding more as well, but they are also putting more back into the sport too. The "Dedicated" are the ones we turn to for technical advice, know where to get hard to find parts, organise and plan the better games and make the playing end of the sport something more than just running around a forest shooting at people until you get bored/run out of BBs.

Now most Irish Airsofters (maybe 75%?) are "One gun Johnnys". It is in the interest of Airsoft as a sport that as many people as possible are moved along the value chain to get more involved. It means more good committed players for the skirmishing and collecting scene, and that means more money for the commercial actors too. Everyone wins.

How do you do that? Get the "One Gun Johnnys" to go skirmishing. Offer vouchers with guns to give a free introductory skirmish ("Take your gun for a test drive!"). Sites should run cheap/free beginner days where new people are encouraged try out the next level of the sport. Get them skirmishing once and many will return.

Getting them to keep coming back means they need to have fun. Throw a track suit wearing newbie into a group of regulars doing a mil-sim and they will be very intimidated. Some sites will always be for more casual players, but the more dedicated ones can offer occasional games tailored for players who have been out a few times but are looking to try something more engaging. The trick is in letting the casual skirmishers know what more they can do now they are getting interested.

And this I think is where the IAA should come in. Now the sport is on reasonably stable legal ground the next step has to be promotion (get new people to the sport) and development (get those that are in already more for their time and money).

I heard a figure a few years ago of over 50,000 airsoft guns sold in Ireland (by Irish retailers). I am sure it is well out of date. Suppose that is 25,000 people. And 80% are just plinkers. Get half of them to go skirmishing once (10,000), and get half of them to come back a few times (5,000). If you can turn 1/4 of them into dedicated players that is over 1,000 new "serious" airsofters which is good for players and for the commercial side.

Nuke1973 · 02-01-2012 10:39PM

BioHazRd wrote: »

People need to start getting a little less precious about the sport. I define an airsofter as someone who has bought the guns, gear etc and goes out to play on an established airsoft site at least semi regularly. I hope I haven't alienated anyone here.
Now, if you were to ask any of the major retailers here what percentage of their customer base is made up of these regular airsofters, you will find the number is shockingly low. The truth is, the retailers make more sales to "non-airsofters" ie the guys (or girls) who just want to own a rif, or just plink.
Take that and mix it up with a "community" who haven't even put forward a single nomination for a position on the executive committee of the national governing body of the sport, and it all leads me to one conclusion.
Airsofters don't care about the future of their sport, they just want retailers to supply what they want at a price they feel they can dictate and then they will go and play on a site that just magically operates and if anything goes wrong in this sparkly chain of magic, they will whine like a five year old who just dropped his lolly.
I want to stress that this is a generalisation as I see it, and it doesnt apply to everyone. I know there are quite a few people out there who live in the real world, and are capable of making a beneficial difference for all of us.
I suppose, my point is, it doesn't matter what happens through our actions as a community, but anything that happens due to our inactivity is inexcusable

At this stage nobody i know in airsofting(players, retailers or sites) considers that we have a national governing body and if we are going to have one then the IAA is too tainted by rumours and bad feeling to be it.

And the laws make no reference to one

TheDoc · 03-01-2012 09:06AM

Nuke1973 wrote: »

And the laws make no reference to one

I'm not aware of any sport that has in law that a governing body is required

The whole point is it is a centralised, organised voice,director and organiser.

While I guess alot of people are a bit flippant about it now that things are grand, I'd love to see an alternative time line where the IAA genuinelly didn't exist.

I'd go as far as saying we would be heavily regulated or simply wouldnt exist.

Arkslippy · 04-01-2012 08:48AM

Id like to make a point on 2 issues.

1. the discussion on buying abroad. i don't spend 1c on buying abroad in any aspect of life. the reason for this is pretty simple. saving 10% on something bought in or even 30% causes a simple effect of taking money out of the Irish economy. If i purchase a 100 euro item from an Irish retailer, some of that money goes towards paying the wages of the guys in the shop, it goes towards paying rent and utilities and some profit for the owner. The portion on wages then is spent on purchases for someone else's products and their wages.

with a recession ongoing and everyone getting squeezed we are all linked together and people who buy abroad should take into account that they are taking money out of the pockets of their friends and family and the community in general. when you save 10 euro it costs twice that for the economy. also you can get a good price by negotiating with a retailer.

on the skirmish side of things if you would like better numbers, bring 1 new player to your favourite site for a game. if half the players who skirmish and id say about 400 a weekend made the effort that would bring 200 new players that weekend and if even 50 became regular players that would be excellent growth.

Puding · 04-01-2012 01:09PM

with a recession ongoing and everyone getting squeezed we are all linked together and people who buy abroad should take into account that they are taking money out of the pockets of their friends and family and the community in general. when you save 10 euro it costs twice that for the economy. also you can get a good price by negotiating with a retailer.

for me it has nothing to do with price, irish retailers just do not provide what i what/need or would even get it in, if it is nor supplied by cydergun or asg you have no chance, most of the retailers i have had experience with lately have no interest in the 'milsimer' for example they want to shift a lot of low end items to individuals that do not care that it does not have the right markings, the guys that some in and just ask for an m4

is that wrong of course not, but im not going to be guilt tripped into shopping with them

horgan_p · 04-01-2012 01:16PM

Arkslippy wrote: »

if half the players who skirmish and id say about 400 a weekend made the effort that would bring 200 new players that weekend and if even 50 became regular players that would be excellent growth.

400 airsofters every weekend ? Where did that figure come from ?

Lemming · 04-01-2012 01:30PM

Arkslippy wrote: »

1. the discussion on buying abroad. i don't spend 1c on buying abroad in any aspect of life. the reason for this is pretty simple. saving 10% on something bought in or even 30% causes a simple effect of taking money out of the Irish economy.

Sorry Arkslippy, but that's simply not true. Money is not leaving. Why? Because you are exchanging it for products and/or services in its place. This is how trade has worked the world over since the concept of bartering was conceived. The Products and/or services that you receive hold a corresponding monetary value.

Further, it is about impossible to 'not buy abroad in any aspect of life'. Where did the wholesaler or retailer for your airsoft gear get them from?

Edit: and as Puding has said, retailers often do not cater to what I'm looking for, leaving me little choice but to go abroad. Then again, for historical stuff, I have to look abroad anyway so it's a 50/50 moot point on some of what I buy abroad anyway.

with a recession ongoing and everyone getting squeezed we are all linked together and people who buy abroad should take into account that they are taking money out of the pockets of their friends and family and the community in general. when you save 10 euro it costs twice that for the economy. also you can get a good price by negotiating with a retailer.

Would you care to explain your rationale for claiming that anyone who seeks a better deal and shops around is effectively stealing from their friends & family? It is not the customers concern as to how a trader covers their costs; that responsibility is solely on the trader. That may sound harsh, but that's the truth. It also underscores a point that has been lost on "Ireland Inc." as a whole for the last couple of decades; business exists to serve customers, not the other way around.

It is only in the last few years that Irish businesses have began to rail against the bad policies and business practices that have made the cost of business in Ireland uncompetitive. Why? Because more and more customers are demanding better value for their money and shopping around because they are being squeezed more and more in taxation & price hikes. For near twenty years, everyone took their eyes off the costs of doing business either as a consumer or as a trader. With all the consumer impulse money gone, Irish businesses are suddenly receiving a hard & long overdue reminder in that most simple of consumer truisms; "the customer is king".

I think the line blurs a lot where the airsoft community is concerned as many players would know airsoft retailers on a personal level. Everyone needs to step back and take a look beyond the person they chat to in the shop and look at why prices seem higher.

sliabh · 04-01-2012 02:26PM

horgan_p wrote: »

400 airsofters every weekend ? Where did that figure come from ?

I'd love to see a comprehensive census on this, but I think 400 is not that far off the mark.

I keep getting surprised at the number of sites that are out there around the country. Quite rightly people have said they are/have appeared like mushrooms. And there is an impression that as was said above, someone with a redundancy cheque rents some land (maybe gets some insurance), fills a few sand bags, brings in some pallets and hopes to start making some money.
They may not all be running every weekend, but they have to be running games from time to time with at least a few players.

I left most my gear in Limerick with my parents when I moved to Austria but I fancied the odd game there when I was back. The one IAA site is Limerick Airsoft Camp. But when I got digging I discovered a lot more. As of this week I know of 3 others in an hour's drive of the city:

Adventure Weekend Airsoft
Tombstone Airsoft
Urban Ops Airsoft.

If each site was just getting 15 players every Saturday (a low estimate) that's 60 in Clare and Limerick alone. I hear figures of 100+ for Redbarn, and how may other sites are there in the Dublin area. 400+ in a weekend doesn't seem that unreasonable.

Of course it does mean there are too many sites with too few players, and not making a) enough money to continue, b) enough money to invest in making the place better.

Personally (and professionally) before I would consider doing anything commercial in the Airsoft space in Ireland I would like to have answers to as many as possible of these questions:

How many airsoft devices are there in Ireland (sold here, and estimates for self imported)?
How many collectors are there?
How many players?
How many commerical retailers (dedicated to Airsoft, and those that allocate just some floor space)?
How many sites (all of them, including the grey ones), how often do they open, how many people do they have on average?
What sort of turnover are the existing commercial actors getting?

Those sort of things allow you to really assess the size and health of the Irish scene. And it lets you calculate the information the authorities and politicians do care about - how many people (i.e. voters) are involved, how many jobs in this sector, how much revenue (i.e. taxable income) is at stake.

What's the state of Airsoft In Ireland From A Commercial Point Of View

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